Discussion for the mailbag:
I've seen various ideas on how the Invasion could have been made better. Some are better than others. However, could it have ever really worked as a true "WCW Invasion" in 2001? WCW was a joke of a promotion that nobody cared about or watched by the time it folded. The WWF had many of the greatest wrestlers of all-time in their primes at the time. It is pretty certain that for the Invaders to be taken seriously, they would've had to convincingly destroy/go over the WWF guys for a while before the WWF got their revenge. So, Scott Steiner, Booker T, Buff Bagwell, DDP, etc. were supposed to just roll over Austin, Rock, HHH, Taker, etc. for six months or so? It's not believeable and no one would buy it. They didn't have the option of guys like Sting, Flair, Hart, Goldberg or Hogan at that point, so honestly what could they have done differently to make a full-scale "invasion" better. Plus, Hogan's reaction at WM X8 showed that the crowd thought of most of those established WCW guys as nostalgia acts by that point anyway. I think Vince did the best he could with what he had, it just wasn't much. I personally believe several "Radicalz" like factions showing up over time would've been more effective.
Wrestling is WORKED. Booker T and DDP absolutely should have come in and rolled over everyone for six months because Vince controls the outcomes of the matches and owns all the properties. It was entirely in his best interest to make people care about the WCW name. You know how you make people believe someone can beat Steve Austin and The Rock? You have them beat Steve Austin and The Rock.
And they absolutely did have the option of Goldberg and Flair, they just didn't want to pay them. Big difference.
The invasion absolutely would have worked 100%. If they had done a triple main event at the Invasion PPV with Goldberg v. Austin, Booker T v. HHH and DDP v. The Rock they could have done rematches and six-mans and switched them around in different combinations for months afterwards and printed their own money for five years. As it was the PPV did one of the biggest buyrates in history for a non-WM show with a shit main event,so obviously people bought it no matter how lame it was.
I went to the Invasion PPV. I remember buying tickets before the card was announced. "It's a WWF vs. WCW pay per view! There's no way they can screw this up! It'll be great!!!"
ReplyDeleteStill shaking my head in disgust...
I know Flair and Sting basically worked their last Nitro match injured/out of shape, and probably wouldn't have been able to go as singles wrestlers right out of the gate. However, I would have loved to see them work as a tag team against Undertaker and Kane. Goldberg vs Austin and Booker T vs The Rock writes itself. Let DDP work with Angle. Save the nWo for the aftermath to keep the momentum going.
ReplyDeleteThe main problem I had with the Invasion was that we as fans were conditioned for years to hate Vince and the corporate level of the company. Who was threatened in the Invasion? Vince and the corporate level of the company. Why am I supposed to suddenly feel sympathetic to them? Also, Vince and Linda coming out and celebrating after the PPV was ridiculous - wasn't Vince keeping her drugged and nailing Trish a couple months back?
Hear hear (read read?).
ReplyDeleteThe biggest problem with the Invasion is the seeming contradiction in bringing the outsiders (WCW) in as faces. You can't have Heel Vince vs. Face Shane, but with Vince bringing Rock/Austin to the table and Shane bringing Steiner/Bagwell.
Now, if you have Shane force Vince out of the WWF, and then Vince shows up at "Nitro" (was Shane really in Florida that night?), and then McMahon joins forces with WCW in an unholy alliance of arch-enemies...now you're talking.
Must we talk about this angle? It makes me very sad.
ReplyDeleteWho says that they had to run the Invasion angle that summer? They eventually signed all those guys, they could have held off on the angle for as long as they wanted.
ReplyDeleteIt's not like they purchased 1998 WCW. In 2001 all that was left was broken down old stars and the younger guys who should have went straight to OVW. And Booker T, Jarrett, and Goldberg. They didn't even have the Radicals intact anymore to act as WCW sleeper agents to give them a little more star power.
ReplyDeleteEverybody's been knocking DDP for his delusional rantings about how he thought he should come in challenging the Rock, but at the time that was definitely a match I would've loved to see.
ReplyDeleteTHIS. Vince had just spent three years being built up as the ultimate heel, and now the fans were supposed to be on his side? (And against Austin?) No wonder fan reaction was so ambivalent about the whole thing. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but the right move would have been to A) Not do the Austin heel turn, and B) Have Vince bring in WCW as his way of crushing his own creation. Think of his justification: Shane & Linda had beaten him at Mania, and perhaps on the same night he tries to get both Rock & Austin to turn to his side but they both rebuff him. (Leading to a clean finish & HANDSHAKE OF RESPECT in the main event.)
ReplyDeleteThat leads to Vince bringing in DDP, Booker, and the crew to attempt the ultimate hostile takeover. As far as additional WCW stars, I think that adding Scott Steiner and Goldberg (saving Flair and the NWO for down the road) would have added sufficient credibility for the WCW side. Throw in one impactful WWF turn (let's go with Angle) to the WCW side, and only ONE turn, and it's a feud that could have made money to a Wrestlemania 18 blow-off. (Austin vs Goldberg, Rock vs Hogan, HHH vs Angle.)
OK I'll stop now.
To say that bringing in Booker T, Steiner, and Goldberg to go over the top WWE guys wouldn't have worked is especially ridiculous since ALL of them wound up in the main event scene anyway! DDP would've worked in a high level midcard feud, and Mike Awesome, Lance Storm, et al as a faction if treated as a threat certainly could be since some of them could wrestle circles around the WWE guys. I do think that partnering up with ECW to form WECW was a good idea, even though by nature ECW should've wanted nothing to do with them. Still, Heyman as the mouthpiece for both groups together was formidabble in it's own right. And if they coerced Taz into getting back in the ring for them? Shit, woulda been awesome.
ReplyDeleteVince is just an insecure little child when it comes to wrestling & he ruined it, plain and simple.
Booker and Goldberg absolutely could have come in and blown through the roster, leading to an epic Survivor Series showdown against Austin/HHH forced to become strange bedfellows. Or, you could have had Benoit and Eddie revealed as sleeper agents. DDP and Steiner, for all their faults, could have been put over by the jobbers for weeks on end. Vince didn't want to do any of these things he wanted to quash WCW. It was petty and short-sighted and cost him a lot of money but he doesn't care; he has a lot of money anyway.
ReplyDeleteAlthough the whole storyline was awful, I think I would have enjoyed what they presented so much more if they kept stephanie out of it. Nothing screamed more of the same as much as her interviews and mug on the screen. Ugh.
ReplyDeleteYeah, but Vince would give all his money just for a little more.
ReplyDeleteI dunno I can't imagine it working any other time since the whole world knew that the McMahon's had bought the company. I think the idea was to "strike while the iron was hot" and hope to pull all the old WCW fans over within a month or two of their show going off the air.
ReplyDeleteWait too long and you risk losing the investment since every day that goes by that WCW isn't on the air, less and less people are going to give a fuck.
Go back and listen to that run-in that Booker did (if I remember correctly he backdrops Austin through a table) and tell me that he wasn't over enough to be programmed against Austin or Rocky.
ReplyDeleteIt absolutely could've worked but between refusing to put anyone in WCW over anyone from the WWE even for the purposes of drawing a rematch AND starting the whole thing off with WCW as the faces...well...it was doomed from the start. Biggest waste of potential in the history of the business, no?
We just went down this rabbit hole a few weeks ago...
ReplyDeleteAnyways, if Nexus worked, this Invasion with just the guys they had would've worked 100%, no question.
Vince's inability to book WCW as any kind of real threat u killed it.
Agree with all of this.
ReplyDeleteWhile adding Goldberg or Flair would have been nice to the angle, the Invasion angle could had still have succeeded on the backs of Booker, DDP, RVD, Rhyno and Lance Storm without needing any of the A-Listers.
ReplyDeleteAs someone who watched WCW religiously at the time (I had a high pain tolerance, I guess), it seemed to me Booker T could have come in and fueded with someone...or at least gone up against Benoit again. It just felt like the WWE didn't know what people liked in WCW and based the whole thing on one night of pops for random names.
ReplyDeleteI think WCW should have been the heels, running through WWF all summer. Until nWo-dX hybrid debuts and forces them to unite to take them out. It gives the crowd a good reason to start cheering WCW and a way to integrate WCW guys after the Invasion is over.
ReplyDeleteDidn't Invasion do THE biggest buyrate for a non-WM show?
ReplyDeleteThey could've done Booker T & DDP as the first wave of WCW invaders, give them some wins and do that feud. Then when Austin/Rock/HHH finally dispatches them, bring in Flair/Goldberg/Steiner as the next wave.
It's amazing that you could've booked the Invasion 100 different ways and made a ton of money. Or do it the WWF way and kill the Attitude era (and the money it made) off for good within 6 months.
I see that, but that is why they should have had the patience to make WCW its own show as was originally planned. You still have Shane run WCW, so there is a reason for them to invade. You build the brand up that way, then have the feud with the WWF.
ReplyDeleteIf anyones heard Jim Cornettes Kayfabe Commentary re: rebooking the Invasion angle, its really well thought out. The main gist being a 1 year storyline of worked shoots where the top WCW and midcard WCW stars invade and pose a real threat to WWF, culminating in a series of matches at Wrestlemania 18 to see which roster is fired. WM 17 is one of my all time favorite PPVS with three **** + matches, wheras WM 18 was a one-match show and I think having the Invasion culminate (properly) here could have resulted in one of the largest all time grossing PPVs as Corny says. Woulda coulda shoulda, Vince would never highlight WCW stars, and all that. Still one of the more intriguing angles from a fantasy booking perspective Ive heard.
ReplyDeleteNow, thread-jack, Rey Misterio has been suspended 60 days for his 2nd wellness violation. When was he due to return, MITB or Summerslam anyway? I guess now is as good of a time as any for him to be busted. But how ironis the guy on the DL is busted with Ryback, Otunga, and Mason Ryan working fulltime schedules. o.0 Thoughts?
Seriously, I wish Rey would retire. His knees are probably so killed from all his surgeries. And what is there left to prove in wrestling? He's a 5"3, 140 pounder and top worker who won the world title for the biggest company in the world while adored and respected by fans and his peers. A sure-fire Hall of Famer and probably the greatest aerial wrestler ever.
ReplyDeleteIf they were serious about sending a message, they would wait until Rey was cleared to return and then pop him with the 60 days.
ReplyDeleteThat is the funny thing really, there are 22 replies in this thread so far and at least 15 better ways to book the thing have been suggested.
ReplyDeleteBasically: Do ANYTHING except what they did and it would've been more successful. haha
It's a weird thing, but in baseball for example, a lot of the guys that have been busted since steroid testing began are not what you would call prototypical 'roided guys. They tended to be on the slimmer side. You can use steroids to heal quicker from injuries and not necessarily to look like Mason Ryan...err, you mean he's not on steroids? lol...
ReplyDeleteTrue, a lot of the names were no-names (Randy Velarde? Adam Piatt?) but there were quite a few big stars who, if they were not named in the Mitchell Report, were somehow implicated (Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield, etc.). I think there were a mix of both.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of the day, Misterio is actually a bigger star than Otunga or Ryan but as noted he is out of action anyway; I think if the steroid policy were serious anyone should be fair game. Does anyone think Orton will be busted again after being busted twice and technically currently at risk of being fired? He's too big of a star. I am not saying Orton is 100% for certain on steroids but if the policy is serious anyone should be fair game, regardless of their standing in the company.
The funny thing is that they did try something similar when they brought in the NWO but by that point the ship for fans caring had kinda sailed.
ReplyDeleteYou're right about that. Vince bringing in the nWo was actually kinda' fitting, given that the nWo's whole gimmick in the summer of '96 was that they were sent from "up north" to battle WCW.
ReplyDeleteIsn't one of that main reasons for using steroids to help heal up an injury after something like, say, surgery anyway?
ReplyDeleteHow weird.
I don't know how they test but if it's HGH they go by elevated testosterone levels (6:1 ratio in the NCAA) and that's IF they have a policy in place for elevated testosterone.
ReplyDeleteI wish Jericho had turned heel and busted out his hypocrite gimmick from '08 as the leader of the invasion.
ReplyDeleteI remember Goldberg saying that he didn't care of Vince would have bought him out or not, that he "wanted to stay loyal to Time Warner," and thus didn't even consider being bought out.
ReplyDelete*rolls eyes*
So I think in some cases there really wasn't a choice; I don't think Vince had the option in the sense that people like Nash and Goldberg wouldn't have been bought out anyway.
Can't that same logic work for Mysterio? As you said, this isn't his first violation. Why throw him to the wolves just to prove it's legit, only to be in a situation where he'd have to be fired if he got caught again?
ReplyDeleteBooker also broke Austin's hand when he put him through the table, which I think set the tone in a sense.
ReplyDeleteHaha@loyalty to Time Warner. What a maroon.
ReplyDeleteHe would have been a very cool leader of the Invasion, especially since him and Austin had an issue when Booker interfered in that triple threat.
ReplyDeleteYou forgot....he went to therapy! :)
ReplyDeleteI think the Bagwell-Booker match was more of a catalyst.
ReplyDeleteOk, here's a worse way: they should've brought in David Arquette as the WCW leader and have him beat Stone Cold and Rock by himself. Wait a minute, that would've been HILARIOUS and thus, more entertaining than what they eventually did. Never mind.
ReplyDeleteIs your point that Misterio was likely on steroids because he was recovering from surgery? Well Im not discounting that, its very possible. However, it doesnt change the seemingly arbitrary nature of who gets busted and when.
ReplyDeleteI love Jericho, but I think part f the reason he was never the man in the company's eyes was that he was too much of a comedy guy. Some of that is booking but I always bought Benoit as a more legit main eventer despite them being of comparable size and Jericho being better on the mic.
ReplyDeleteIf you watched WCW religiously like I did back then, did you notice how over Lance Storm was and how he was booked strongly despite the silliness around him? I mean, at one point, he had all the titles save for the WCW Title at the same time and they even brought in Bret to basically endorse him after he won a match at a PPV held somewhere in Can
ReplyDeleteit wasn't inability, it was straightforward REFUSAL to book WCW as any kind of a real threat.
ReplyDeleteas bad as that match was, the crowd didn't help any by shitting on it before it even began. that was a terrible crowd that night.
ReplyDeleteMakes me wonder if Vince ever bought out TNA, would he do the same thing all over again and have James Storm job to Hornswoggle in a 2 minute squash, while having Taker use Bobby Roode as WWE DDP v 2.0 aka personal punching bag? Maybe he'd make the former WWE guys look somewhat strong after punishing them first, especially Angle? What do you guys think?
ReplyDeleteIt was so stupid strange in 2001: Bischoff didn't had TV, WCW sold out to WWF, Vince did not want to buy out the big WCW guys and in 2002 Jeff Jarrett created TNA and all the big WCW guys inclusive Bischoff came to WWE. Why did not Bischoff and Jarrett made a new WCW before WWE could buy the rights???
ReplyDeleteNobody would care or want a TNA Invasion angle. Just take the 5 guys that are useful from that promotion and fold them into the WWE.
ReplyDeleteNash wouldn't have been bought out? Uh...it's Kevin Fucking Nash!
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I would have done differently was for at the end of Survivor Series when Vince shot his hands up in victory, the nWo's music hits out comes Hogan, Nash, Hall, Bischoff, Scott Steiner, Buff Bagwell, the whole B-Team and they lay waste to everybody involved on both sides.
ReplyDeleteIf people cared about the NEXUS nobodies, why not the TNA guys?
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to that whole thing? I mean, did the nWo even have a point after a while?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I enjoyed that Storm run, but that match against Hugh Morrus was all overbooked and basically made him look like a cheat. Funny that Storm hates Russo, yet Russo booked him as a one-man wrestling machine in WCW...until Nash.
ReplyDeleteLance came in pretty strong in WWF, too. They just couldn't find a gimmick for him.
oh, cultstatus, and by 5 guys who are you referring to: Styles, Joe, Roode, Storm, and Aries? How about the Motor City Machineguns? Then, you got Angle, who can still bring it on PPV matches. I can see them not wanting to take another risk with Hardy, though but they got more than 5 usef
ReplyDeleteTNA has zero history and generally regarded as a shit wrestling show where old timers go to die. WWE fans will hate it and it would take forever to wash away the TNA stink off the guys who came in under their banner.
ReplyDeleteBut he'd have lost money. It was "don't work and get the full amount" vs. "be able to work now but accept 10 cents on the dollar" or something like that. I believe DDP said he willingly took the cut (buy out) so that he could work.
ReplyDeleteRoode and Storm are a definite. Styles probably. Joe maybe. Machineguns as a team, no. As singles I doubt it. Angle, not in a million years. Aries maybe. TNA's problem is their size.
ReplyDeleteIn WCW? The nWo played up the whole "Who sent them?" thing until the Hogan reveal as the mastermind. He never claimed that he was sent from Vince or anything, he just said the fans turned on him and that he was in it for the money. As for having a point after 6 months, I would have said their only point was to build up Sting as the vigilante of WCW, until he was to get his ultimate revenge at Starcade 97. Unfortunately, we know how well that went...
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Plus, they HAD to get the Nitro/Raw simulcast on the air. Regardless of how badly the whole angle went to shit right out of the gate, no one can deny how must-see, how surreal, how memorable that entire night was. To NOT have WWF involvement in the last Nitro would have been a big missed opportunity, in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteActually, if I remember from online reports at the time, Johnny Ace of all people was the one responsible for the booking of Storm.
ReplyDeleteThat would have been awesome, but that would definitely have lessened the impact of Hogan/Rock at Wrestlemania. Think about how nowadays they can barely fill in a 4 week build to a PPV, it was basically the same way back then. Keeping Hogan / Rock separate from Survivor Series through Mania would have been a tough task. As it was, the month between No Way Out and Mania was filled with awful Raw segments and tag matches (minus the ambulance angle, that was so ridiculous it was good). 5 months of that shit? No thanks.
ReplyDeleteIt was a terrible idea to have two WCW guys fight in the main event- They even changed the commentary team! What the hell were they thinking would happen?
ReplyDeleteAgreed, turning the Radicals to the WCW during the Invasion would have added some crediblity to the WCW side. Having them join WCW made more sense than having Steve Austin do so.
ReplyDeleteFor sure, I think that was one of the few things they did right (considering how little time they had to plan for the most historic night of TV in the business), having Shane come out on Nitro was a perfect way to set up a story that they could figure out how to pay off later.
ReplyDeleteI'm not with you as far as not doing anything else differently, but the best Invasion scenario I could ever think of was to have the nWo involved in a big way. Not right at the start, but as a way to intro some of the bigger nWo names a few months into it and have some of the guys who might already be there be part of a big heel turn/takeover. But have it die either at the next Wrestlemania or wait a little longer until the next Summerslam.
ReplyDeleteThe nWo was a joke by 2001 in WCW, but this wouldn't be WCW. And I know the nWo we did get eventually in WWE was lame. But I think the WWE brass at the time would be able to a decent updated take on the nWo concept if it were the same main players as the original (ie not Vince McMahon) resurrecting it in the new environment.
I have a joke!
ReplyDeleteQ: Who were the librarian's favourite wrestlers?
A: BOOKer T and Diamond Dallas PAGE!
If that's why Rey got busted, then he was a moron. He should have disclosed that fact right away.
ReplyDeleteAlthough, if I remember, not disclosing a medication or something while he was healing was the reason he got busted the first time (according to him).
A lot of the obvious steroid-abusers felt the heat coming and got off it during the off-season. That's why a lot of them came to training camp like 30 pounds lighter that year.
ReplyDeleteYeah the whole idea behind the storyline if I recall was Vince was becoming a crazy senile old man so he hired the NWO to destroy his company from within. ....Sadly that wasn't too far of a stretch of character for him.
ReplyDeleteThey easily could've had him start up a Hart Foundation-type thing with Jericho and Benoit.
ReplyDeleteNo, it wasn't a terrible idea in theory but it was terrible to pick fucking Buff Bagwell of all people to fight Booker T. It should've been a no-bullshit, high-impact match between Mike Awesome and Booker T. DDP would've been a g
ReplyDeleteI'd have gone Jericho for the turn, on the basis of his standing as a former WCW guy. If you wanted to, you could say he was a mole.
ReplyDeleteWWF burying WCW durng this angle that it sent me into a loooong hiatus.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't about Bagwell. It was about the fact that the WWF/WCW rivalry was still in full swing at that point: Both companies were actively shitting on each other left and right and the WWF audience didn't want anything to do with WCW- The majority of them didn't know Booker or Bagwell and would have been equally clueless outside of anyone that wasn't Hogan, Goldberg, maybe Nash and Hall... Sting? There's not a long list of big names that had instant appeal for WWF viewers. I remember seeing signs that said "We didn't pay to see this", and they didn't.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying it couldn't have worked to do a WCW main event at a WWF show, but the WWF would have needed to really educate their audience as to who the main players were and why they should care. They didn't, and it stunk up the whole building.
While I think everyone agrees the InVasion could have been done better and had more of an impact, I think it's a stretch to say they'd have been printing money for the next 5 years.
ReplyDeleteOh no not again
ReplyDeleteI guess Vince didn't hate the UWF back in the day.
ReplyDeleteYour plan sounds good except HHH couldn't have been involved his quad was torn. Maybe replace HHH with Angle or Taker. The only bad thing is, if they brought in Goldberg, Hogan, Steiner, etc. we wouldn't have gotten any clean finishes ever.
ReplyDeleteI figured McMahon wouldn't give a WCW wrestler a World title, so I would have immediately put the IC belt on a WCW wrestler (like Booker T) and gave him a MONSTER push with it. I mean you would have to have him come close to breaking the Honky Tonk Man's record. Have every second tier wrestler wrestler try to win it back and fail, then have the occasional big name come and try to take it.
ReplyDeleteSimilar to what the nWo did with the World title, you have WWE wrestlers complain that the IC belt is rich in history and they can't stand to see a non-WWE wrestler with it.
If the Invasion had really worked, they could have created two distinct, separate touring companies. But the bad Invasion lead to the half-ass "brand extension" and soon you have Flair and Vince, and Stephanie and Bischoff talking about "brands" like the average fan cares about that.
ReplyDeleteWCW v. nWo ran for 2 years (really longer but it was GOOD for two years), I don't think it would be a stretch for a properly book WWF v. WCW feud to run from the first Invasion until at least WrestleMania 20.
Yeah, the Invasion could have been booked better for what it was, but
ReplyDeleteI'd still prefer even then if it never happened. I just don't think WCW
had the kind of overall star power to compete with WE's entire roster,
and there's no guarantee that people would automatically look at people
like Booker T. or DDP as bigger stars right off the bat just because
they went over Austin, Rock, Angle, Taker, etc. I would have rather if
they just introduced all the WCW guys one by one just like any other
wrestler who debuts or jumps ship or something. They did that at first,
having Booker T. attack Austin and having DDP stalk the Undertaker's
wife, etc.
At least we still got some entertaining moments/feud/matches/etc. out of
it. Austin/Angle, Rock/Booker T., Rock/Jericho, Edge and Christian's
breakup, etc.
except the nWo started off with Razor Ramon, who was a straight up midcarder at the time he left the wwf. You're playing this by a set of rules that doesn't apply. it's the shock and awe of one "company" attacking another.
ReplyDeleteThe last time he got busted, it was for a drug he has a prescription for, but he couldn't produce the prescription in time and was suspended. So, maybe it could be something like that again? Although that would totally suck.
ReplyDeleteTNA's never had a point where it has been as big as or bigger than the WWE, so it would be less exciting to have them invade, but they do still have a large following.
ReplyDeleteWhich makes it even worse when you consider the treatment he got. He should've come in independently and got treated as a bigger deal.
ReplyDeleteIf they had continued heel Austin & Vince leading WWF against face Shane and face WCW, that would have in fact been worse.
ReplyDeleteLance has said that BIG JOHNNY was his biggest advocate in WCW. Lance was about the only redeeming thing in WCW 2000. And Scott Steiner too. Steiner is awesome.
ReplyDeleteyeah, and I think at the time that caused him and the rest of the WCW guys to be told "they don't know how to work safe."
ReplyDeleteWasn't the WWF in Atlanta the next week? They should've done that match their with either Booker T vs DDP or Lance Storm. Would've gone over much better.
ReplyDeleteNo, it really was about Bagwell. He was terrible and everybody knew it. At least Page v. Booker, or Storm v. Booker, they would have had a shot to work through it. Bagwell was past his expiration date at that point. It was over for him.
ReplyDeleteI don't knock it. I mean, Rock/Austin were the top WWF guys, Booker/DDP were the top WCW guys, and some combinations of them make sense.
ReplyDeleteIf I were Vince, I would've paid for Goldberg or Sting, and Flair. You need one super credible WCW face and you need a believable WCW figurehead. Bischoff would be even better, but Flair would probably be more willing. Though Sting has said he didn't go to the WWF because he didn't trust how he'd be treated.
ReplyDeleteOn a side note, I wish Juvi had come to the WWE, so they could play of off the Rock's comments about him in 1999.
I liked the Invasion show. Hardy v. RVD was good, the ten-man tag was hot, 3 or 4 chicks got stripped down to their bras and panties... the storyline after was terrible, but the Invasion show itself was pretty good.
ReplyDeleteWhy not do the same thing with the WCW title? The IC title was pretty much a joke by the time the Invasion happened. I mean, Albert was the IC Champ.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet NXT was a much more respected wrestling show? The Nexus invasion was over huge initially and could have had a real impact and that was with a bunch of nobodies (And Danielson.) People were buzzing like crazy after that first night.
ReplyDeleteIf you had the TNA guys and did it right, it could be a big deal. I don't ever watch TNA. Everything I watch of their product is bad. But, I'd be intrigued to see guys like Styles, Roode, Sting, Angle, etc.. coming in to WWE to try and take over. Have a bunch of their guys lay waste to Cena like NXT did and watch everyone freak out in a good way.
NXT wasn't a rival wrestling show or organization. And people didn't care about Nexus aside from Bryan, Barrett, and Gabriel's finisher.
ReplyDeleteAnyway it's a moot point because if WWE bought TNA, they would just take the video library and then send the people who they wanted to keep to FCW and rebrand them.
I might be misremembering, but didn't Sting have moral issues with Attitude era WWF?
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, truth, being paid to not work? Nash is on that like a fat kid on cake. I thought you meant that Nash had to much loyalty to WCW to sell out. Which is ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteAnd poor DDP. He gets a bad rap.
So Hogan brought in wrestlers from the WWF that he had no interaction with beforehand to destroy his current work place because they booed him?
ReplyDeleteRazor Ramon (along with Diesel) was also one of the most over guys in the WWF and him jumping suddenly to WCW got a lot of people's attention for that reason. I don't get what this has to do with what I said, though. I said WCW's leftover roster by the time it died wasn't as credible (in star power, which includes midcarders) as WWF's overall roster, which is true. To the fans who were watching WWF, WCW was a company that drove most of it's fan base away with shitty direction and then went out of business. I think the best thing to do would be to not waste time trying to pull off an invasion and just introduce all the ex-WCW/ECW guys they wanted one at a time and market them as new WWE wrestlers.
ReplyDelete.
I'm sure that was also part of it.
ReplyDeleteDoubt WCW would ended up as it's own separate company. I think the original plan was for WCW to remain open as it's own company but the reason they decided to go with an invasion angle in the first place was because TNN refused to greenlight a WCW show. I doubt the success of an invasion angle would have caused them to change their minds. And no way would I ever want to see WWF vs WCW last for close to three years.
ReplyDeleteplease, it's something he did or didn't do for vince/HHH or whomever that he REALLY pissed off this time, probably nothing to do with the juice smh
ReplyDeleteYes, the third party testing company risked their entire reputation because Rey Mysterio wouldn't...something...for Vince McMahon. Makes perfect sense.
ReplyDeleteHoly fuck.
I actually like the idea of debuting the nWo at Survivor Series. You think the WWE finally won and got through only to find out their not even through the worst of it with the nWo. Of course you'd have to build them up as threat and whatnot.
ReplyDeleteWho says they'd have to do Hogan/Rock. That's the shot where you do Hogan/Austin and maybe do Hogan/Rock at Royal Rumble.
ReplyDeleteThey did create a new WCW, your just seeing it 10 years too late.
ReplyDeleteWell, I was mostly trying to point out that how over someone is in one company doesn't correspond to the reaction they get in another, given proper booking. The "is he a big enough star" thing gets erased when someone under the wcw banner beats SCSA, and just saying "well, booker and DDP aren't enough" is approaching it from the wrong direction.
ReplyDeleteI'd imagine that Vince probably sees Rey as being somewhat expendable - the guy seemingly spends more time on the sidelines than in the ring, has supposedly been very difficult to work with in terms of contract negotiations and story-lines for about five years now, and has a history of heavy drug- and steroid-use to the point where they're probably worried about another Eddie Guerrero situation.
ReplyDeleteHe sells a ton of merchandise, but the negatives are probably beginning to catch-up with the positives.
"Nexus" also worked because they had an AMAZING debut, the type of thing that we've never really seen before - it instantly generated interest. If they had just walked onto the stage and said "ok, we're going to feud with you now", it would have died immediately.
ReplyDeleteI agree that most WWE fans wouldn't be interested in a WWE-vs.-TNA feud right off the bat, but if they were actually allowed to SHOW why people should care about them, I think it would work. If you have guys like Styles and the MCMG busting out all sorts of cool moves, the fans would take to them. I'm not saying that TNA has ENOUGH people to do a company-vs.-company feud, but there's no reason that a stable wouldn't work, especially if there was a unifying theme to the stable, such as X-Division guys. Just imagine if they had, say, Angle as the leader, with Styles, Aries, and MCMG, with Velvet as the eye-candy; that would work really well.
Booker, DDP, and RVD, definitely. Rhyno and Lance? No way.
ReplyDeleteAnd I say that as a BIG Rhyno-mark.
I don't know if it's fair to blame Buff, as somebody in charge CLEARLY should have picked someone else to represent WCW in that match, but, yeah, it was pretty much Buff's atrociousness that killed them right out of the gate.
ReplyDeleteI mean, that Booker/Buff match was basically meant to be WCW's introduction to the WWF audience, to say "these are the TWO BEST guys we have, and if you want to see amazing action like this, you can only get it in WCW". And then one of their "two best" proceeded to stink up the joint. If a crappy guy like Bagwell is supposed to indicate the highest level of talent in your organization, you're in trouble. It'd be like trying to get an ROH audience to buy into WWE by giving them Kane/Khali.
It wasn't ALL Buff's fault, of course, he shouldn't have been in that position in the first place, but it was his performance that basically made all of WCW look like hacks by proxy.
Here's the problem with WCW as the heels, though: how do you launch it as its own stand-alone company (which was their intent at the time) if they're all heels? It's not like they were "cool heels" like the nWo, they were just regular, dime-a-dozen heels.
ReplyDeleteIt wrote itself - both were referred to as "the people's champion" in their respective organizations.
ReplyDeleteIt's wrestling, feuds have been built on less: guys using the same finisher, for instance.
Ehh, I think it was more that the three of them were money-hungry egomaniacs, and conspired to destroy everyone around them while simultaneously profiting off of it. Hogan wanted to prove that he wasn't past his prime, and Hall and Nash were his means of doing just that.
ReplyDeleteThat's how I always saw it, anyway.
Agreed - it wasn't AS good as it could/should have been, but it wasn't bad in anyway. I quite liked it, probably give the whole thing a "B" or so.
ReplyDeleteHere's a question that I don't think has really been addressed since the "inVasion" originally happened: did either side really NEED to be heel?
ReplyDeleteWWF obviously couldn't be the heels, as it was the "home-town" team. Conversely, WCW really shouldn't have been the heels, for a number of reasons: Vince wanted to re-launch them as their own company (meaning that the fans would have to support them), it kills the support and momentum of guys like Booker and DDP that were already really over as faces, and it positions all of the WCW guys as being "inferior" right off the bat since heels traditionally are "weaker" than faces (such as having to cheat to win).
Why couldn't it just be one company consisting of many different personalities and ways of doing things, against another company consisting of many different personalities and ways of doing things? Wouldn't, say, potential Austin/Booker or Rock/DDP programs be bigger deals if they were face/face encounters? That way it really boils down to "may the better man win" instead of "the inferior WCW guy may or may not cheat his way to victory over the clearly superior WWF guy".
That way, it's not just Vince and his mindless puppets that will do his bidding against Shane and HIS mindless puppets that will do his bidding, but guys that will actually take pride in their team and play to win, just like in real sports. Plus, not EVERY match would have to be WWF-vs.-WCW (or WWF-vs.-"Alliance"), which, if you don't remember, was literally about 95% of WWF programming at the time, to the point that it became completely repetitive and meaningless. I mean, Christian turning on Edge could have just led to a brother-vs.-brother feud, instead of being more about WWF-vs.-WCW; just copy Bret/Owen, where their feud is tearing the family apart, instead of the big concern which "team" will win.
Just an idea.
Do you really think the drug testing is legit? It's the biggest load of BS in wrestling. You're telling me Vince isn't paying these guys money just to do as he says? If this testing was real there would a lot of guys gone from WWE right now (Ryan, Otunga, Orton, etc). The fact is the big names and the ones Vince likes can do any damn thing they want and get away with it, well the others have to walk on pins and needles to keep their jobs.
ReplyDelete"Until nWo-dX hybrid debuts and forces them to unite to take them out. It gives the crowd a good reason to start cheering WCW and a way to integrate WCW guys after the Invasion is over."
ReplyDeleteThis would elevate the IC belt, and tbh can you REALLY see McMahon allowing a WCW wrestler to hold the WWE title at that time?
ReplyDeleteI think the testing is as legitimate as it is in any other sport.
ReplyDeleteOrton's been out twice now, he's hardly getting any special treatment.
I call bullshit -- Sting & Goldberg as an uneasy alliance taking on Rock & Austin as an equally uneasy alliance would have been money (with both and neither teams being faces/heels, let the fans decide) -- We're not talking wacky tag team partners who hate each other but four guys who team up and face each other as a necessity -- Goldberg & Sting find themselves in WWE against their will and pissed off about it (Mr. McMahon plays both ends against the middle, though in a fairly subtle manner but finds himself distracted by Hogan, Bischoff and Flair trying to grab a foothold with the rest of the McMahon family) -- They separately destroy heel and face midcarders for a while and Austin & Rock don't appreciate these two assholes inserting themselves into the fold and start responding until all four somehow find themselves in the ring together at the end of RAW -- No swerves or cute booking, just four badasses doing what they think they have to do -- Have other players on both sides involved to set up a team style Survivor Series and culminate things at Wrestlemania -- Branch off whatever feuds the fans seem to respond to after that -- And for fuck sake, keep DDP as a face and feud with WCW traitor Jericho and have the Undertaker absolutely destroy the Outsiders -- Fat Foley can run verbal circles around an arrogant, chiseled Scott Steiner and trick him into a hardcore match that he wins but takes a huge beating in doing so -- Triple H and Booker T have a classic series of matches just because they can
ReplyDeleteSting & Goldberg as an uneasy alliance taking on Rock & Austin
ReplyDeleteas an equally uneasy alliance would have been money (with both and
neither teams being faces/heels, let the fans decide) -- We're not
talking wacky tag team partners who hate each other but four guys who
team up and face each other as a necessity -- Goldberg & Sting find
themselves in WWE against their will and pissed off about it (Mr.
McMahon plays both ends against the middle, though in a fairly subtle
manner but finds himself distracted by Hogan, Bischoff and Flair trying
to grab a foothold with the rest of the McMahon family) -- They
separately destroy heel and face midcarders for a while and Austin &
Rock don't appreciate these two assholes inserting themselves into the
fold and start responding until all four somehow find themselves in the
ring together at the end of RAW -- No swerves or cute booking, just four
badasses doing what they think they have to do -- Have other players on
both sides involved to set up a team style Survivor Series and
culminate things at Wrestlemania -- Branch off whatever feuds the fans
seem to respond to after that -- And for fuck sake, keep DDP as a face
and feud with WCW traitor Jericho and have the Undertaker absolutely
destroy the Outsiders -- Fat Foley can run verbal circles around an
arrogant, chiseled Scott Steiner and trick him into a hardcore match
that he wins but takes a huge beating in doing so -- Triple H and Booker
T have a classic series of matches just because they can
Oh yeah, and have Angle substitute for Triple H as he's hurt at the time...
ReplyDeleteI agree 100%. The InVasion (especially the ECW wing of it) was one of the biggest botches in WWE Kreative™ history, and only somewhat salvaged by the nWo entering the fray in 2002. Just horrid booking. It's amazing that Booker T rose above all of that (by one, stopping the Rockification of his in-ring persona); that's a testament to his work ethic.
ReplyDeleteDDP vs. Undertaker was one of the worst matches I think WWE ever put on (that includes the tripe that functioned as the undercard in 1998). WWE also found a way to shirk obvious match-ups (until Rock/Hogan) as well... even in the mid-card.