Hey Scott,
Longtime reader and diehard fan of the rants and blog. My question concerns the WWF in 1992, specifically the extremely odd booking. I understand that McMahon was in the midst of the steroid scandal, and understandably distracted. That being said, there are some questions I've never heard satisfactorily addressed; perhaps you can offer some insight.
It was obviously a time of transition. Flair gets the belt back from Savage with the full understanding that he's a transition champion at that point. Despite their later issues, Flair at the time had no problem whatsoever with putting over Bret Hart clean, wherever and whenever. The story both Flair and Hart convey is that for some unexplained reason, McMahon lost faith in Flair and wanted the new era to begin sooner rather than later. Even if that's TRUE, why do it at a house show and piss away millions? As a businessman, McMahon was an 11 on the incompetence scale here. And since money trumps everything, I have a hard time believe backstage political considerations, whatever they were, would drive McMahon to piss away a huge payday while laying the foundation for the future.
Flair still had a monumental rub to give, and you go with that? If he waited another few months, he could have built a monster feud; it would have been totally new and fresh. Instead of the fall of '92, do the "new generation thing" at the Royal Rumble with Flair tapping to the Sharpshooter after a 30 minute classic. Remember, these were still the days of the "big four" PPVs. Hart gets an amazing blast-off to start the era and instant credibility to carry the torch into the 90's. Due to this shortsightedness, 1993 is an unmitigated disaster financially, and Hart has to wait until WM 10 until he's finally viewed as someone on par with Flair and Hogan as an anchor company guy, at least in my eyes.
Shawn
The situation, as I understand it, was that Flair was hurt due to his inner ear problem and Vince decided that they should get the belt off him NOW. Plus Vince wanted Bret as his guy and he had a lot of people in his ear fighting against the idea, so if he had waited and built to something later then it's likely that someone would have talked him into changing his mind instead of going with Bret. As well, with the steroid hysteria in full swing, Vince wanted someone on top who he could point to as a "smaller" guy that was clearly not juicing. Even though Bret and Shawn both clearly were, but that's another matter. It was all just one of those "everything coming together at the right moment" deals for Bret.
The funny thing about this looking back was just how ready Bret was for the title despite it being hot-shotted onto him.
ReplyDeleteHe was riding off a great spring/summer following piper passing the torch and him and Bulldog selling out Wembley for SummerSlam 92.
My 11 year old self was shocked when he suddenly had the belt, but not surprised as he'd been built up to be around that level for the previous 12-18 months.
Shows the value of having a strong mid card and having your secondary titles mean something as Bret stepping up felt like a natural evolution. Compare it to now when we're suddenly supposed to view guys like Swagger, Ziggler & Bryan as World Champs despite them being on no discernible path to the title leading up to their win. (I like all 3 but MITB has a lot to answer for in terms of destroying the natural, slow build of young, upcoming wrestlers on a road to the title)
Whatever the reason for getting the title off flair in the way he did at least he had a solid and natural guy to go to in Hart
Bret says that Flair was always over complimentary to him, saying he was the best wrestler in the world and desperately wanted to take him to WCW with him. Knowing what we know about both of them, it's hard to know what to believe. Bret seems to keep a journal of every compliment anyone has ever given him, and Flair seems to blow smoke up everyones ass he talks to.
ReplyDeleteBut that's pretty much the story everyone supports - for whatever reason Vince was done with Flair as a top guy and wanted to start using him to put over younger guys, he had a short list of guys he was considering as the next champion, and rushed the title onto Bret before he could be talked out of it. It's funny, because I remember watching Superstars and hearing them talk about the new WWF Champion and I just assumed it was Warrior because he seemed the logical choice to go after Flair due to Flair screwing up his title shot against Savage and then cheating the title from him. Was that ever under consideration?
Looking back, I think the way Flair went out was very impressive and am amazed by how well Vince managed to put together those final feuds. Flair put over Bret clean to make him champion, he teamed up with Razor Ramon to give Ramon some high-level exposure, he put over Perfect clean and helped revitalize Curt's career as a face, and then he left quietly to go about his career again. The only error was, as the emailer mentioned, in some of Vince's timing: putting Bret's win on a house show and the Loser Leaves Town match on RAW both limited the exposure of those events by a bit. But 20/20 hindsight and all that. If only wrestlers today could depart in such a graceful manner.
ReplyDeleteBret appearing at the start of Superstars with the title is still one of the great Wait? What? moments in wrestling.
ReplyDeleteI'm assuming it Flair didn't have the inner ear issue it would have been Flair/Hart and Survivor Series. At least that's my guess. And I don't think Warrior as champ was ever the option, or if it was they would have been screwed over due to him leaving right before SS again.
ReplyDeleteThat's the problem with the over reliance on the Money in the Bank. With Edge, he was already a solid upper mid card guy back in 2002, so when he cashed in for the title shot (in a way no one could have predicted) in 2006, it felt natural, especially after having a few failed title attempts.
ReplyDeleteWith Rob Van Dam, fans were clamoring for him to have the title since 2001, so in 2006, he finally gets his main event push with the briefcase in tow. After that, it went downhill.
Personally, I would for the World Title to wiped from existence, that way we can get reigns like Swagger's, Khali's, Big Show's 45 second reign, Dolph's, and Benoit's stricken from the record. Plus, it would make Punk's win at Money in the Bank mean more since it was for his first WWE Championship.
I was 10 when it happened and even though Savage and Warrior were in the mix I thought Bret winning the title out of nowhere was completely reasonable and didn't sour the heat on Survivor Series' main event one little bit. When Warrior flaked out and Perfect subbed in it only got better. Plus, ultimately the way they put Bret over by having him defend the title against everyone gave him a ton of cred as a great champion and he rode that for the rest of his career.
ReplyDeleteThe only downside of him taking the belt: It completely destroyed Papa Shango as any kind of threat. But I'm pretty sure no one cared.
They should drop the US title, not the WHT.
ReplyDeleteIt's rare, I agree. I think Jericho seems to do it well when he goes on his hiatuses, though.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of that he said he'll be leaving again before Summerslam. Wonder who he'll feud with after Punk?
ReplyDeleteThey should drop both, considering both titles are pretty useless at this point.
ReplyDeletepersonnelly, i think tito santana should have been the guy. he was a better wrestler than brett and he was much more likable. it was like when they put the belt on jack swagger. i don't think bret was ready at that point and wasn't believable until he beat yokozuna.
ReplyDeleteOne note from an old Observer -- it was a errant shot to the ear by Warrior in the Warrior/Flair match on October 9th, 1992 that caused Flair's balance problems as a consequence of breaking some of the nerve endings in his ear.
ReplyDeleteAs far as why Warrior wasn't given the big push instead of Hart aside from the steroid stuff -- business was awful post WrestleMania for everything other than Summer Slam and their international tours with record low ratings, bad gates, etc. They was already talk by early September that Warrior's time might be brief in the WWF, so it wasn't entirely unexpected for him to leave when he did.
Just to be picky, Bret didn't win the title at a house show, he won it at a TV taping, although it didn't air on TV.
ReplyDeleteI was bored so decided to fantasy book Survivor Series 92 after a quick look on who was on the roster at the time. The matches are based on the storylines going on at the time and keeping with the Survivor Series elimination theme:
ReplyDeleteBret Hart/Mr. Perfect/Randy Savage/The Undertaker vs
Ric Flair/Razor Ramon/Papa Shango/Kamala
-Bret/Perfect are the co-survivors as I would have built 93 around these two guys
Natural Disasters/Nasty Boys vs
Money Inc./Beverly Brothers
-Ended up being a bad match, but seemed decent on paper. I would have had Inc win instead since the Nasties and Disasters would soon leave the company.
Big Bossman/Tatanka/Crush/Virgil vs
Shawn Michaels/Rick Martel/Nailz/Mountie
-Tatanka and Crush end up being the co-survivors to continue their winning streak ways
High Energy/Tito Santana/Jim Duggan vs
Yokozuna/Headshrinkers/Berzerker
-The faces eliminates 3 of the heels until Yoko comes in and destroys all of the faces by himself
Flair losing to Perfect in a Loser Leaves Town match at one of the first RAW's was one of the things that put RAW on the map during the early years.
ReplyDeleteI know this is somewhat unrelated but I think it's need to be noted. The way books are written, someone like Bret hart tells his ghostwriters/editor that Flair used to say good things about him or that wrestler B told him he had a great match one time. Hardly stuff that's outside of the realm of the average person filing away in their memory. A ghost writer and/or editor takes those memories and creates a situation or direct quote to give the memory a sense of immediacy and more reality. In the case of Bret's book I think it backfired because it seemed like he cataloged a bunch of guys praising him, but are we really going to think that in Bret's illustrious career he didn't hear a bunch of times how good a match he just worked was or have someone tell him he was a great wrestler? Guys in the NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, etc. praise their teammates in the locker room allt he time and praise their opponents. When I played competitive sports, I told and was told by other players that I had a good game. I remember seeing an old teammate at the gym 5 years after I played high school baseball with me. We were playing basketball and re recognized me and he said, "man, you were a hell of a hitter." This remark was unsolicited, but I was flattered and now 15 years later I still remember it. I think people might be a bit hard on Bret for his book and the compliments from other wrestlers that are included. Just offering a different perspective that what usually is said.
ReplyDeleteYeah I'm with you on that. They could've used it to prop up the card for Rumble 93, maybe, but that was the kind of match that really helped sell Raw as being a show to watch.
ReplyDeleteI don't actually disagree with this point. I think it did a lot for RAW. But I also think it did more for RAW than for Perfect. Instead of being a big moment at Rumble or Mania that put him over as a big face and a star, it became a "lost classic" - one of those matches that people remembered loving but had somehow slipped through the cracks of popular memory. So, while I think it all contributed to separating RAW from Superstars and similar shows that inundated the audience with jobber matches, it also kept the match from joining the popularly recognized classics of the early nineties. Anyways, that's my take on it.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't mind him in a short program with Kofi or Ryder if it could help get one of them over again.
ReplyDeleteI don't want to see him just do a rehashed feud with Orton/Show/Cena/etc.
I know it later showed up on a highlight tape, but it was a bit weird that they didn't air it on Primetime Wrestling back then. They could have hype it a week or two in advance as a special attraction kind of thing - not that ratings meant all that much pre-Nitro.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the only commercial release of this match was a rare VHS compilation called "Smack 'Em Whack 'Em".
ReplyDeleteBut the match where Flair regained the title from Savage didn't get a commercial release at all. Only highlights were shown on Superstars, with the "full" match shown on Prime Time Wrestling...and even that doesn't include the infamous "first take", that Vince apparently felt was so horrible that he had Heenan go out there to tell Flair and Savage to abandon the match so Vince could talk it over with them before the do-over.
Money in the Bank has had a devastating long term effect. It's destroyed emotionally gratifying title "moments." Imagine Shawn Michaels' first championship if, instead of the "boyhood dream" buildup against Bret Hart, we would have had Michaels win a mid-card fodder spotfest against, I don't know, Marty Jannetty, Tito Santana, The Mountie, etc., then go on to beat Bret Hart with a surprise superkick after Hart is laid out by Diesel at an In Your House.
ReplyDeleteIt fit Edge's character perfectly, and they did the right thing with RVD v. Cena. But the "cash in any time" thing needs to stop--just make it for a title shot, but one that operates like a normal match.
Yeah, they should just close the whole company too, right?
ReplyDeleteBret was ready? He wasn't ready to draw money. But, by that logic, he was never ready.
ReplyDeleteDid I suggest that at any point?
ReplyDeleteThat last one would have been a more impressive debut than just having him squash Virgil, although that worked perfectly well. I am kind of surprised you swapped Shawn for Papa Shango in the main event.
ReplyDelete"The only downside of him taking the belt: It completely destroyed Papa
ReplyDeleteShango as any kind of threat. But I'm pretty sure no one cared."
It cleared up roster space for guys like Kama and the Godfather, so I guess that's about an even tradeoff.
I have a hard time believing Tito would have been more believable in that spot, given that he'd spent so much time jobbing after Strike Force broke up. That said, there is an urban legend that he was one of the guys they were considering that pops up from time to time.
ReplyDeleteA feud with Ryder could do a lot to help rebuild the poor guy, especially if he can hang his hat on sending him out of the company.
ReplyDeleteAre you serious? Tito was 39 in '92. Did you miss the point of this thread?
ReplyDeleteWas there anyone who was going to draw better than Bret at that time? Bret did just fine and I can't see anyone else on the WWF roster that was a better choice (look what happened when they tried the Lex Express)
ReplyDeleteThe whole "Bret Hart Title Win" thing was weird for me, because a) it happened off TV, b) Bret had just lost to Davey Boy and seemed like he wasn't at "that level" in my eyes (despite it being a good match at SummerSlam), c) he was fighting the much lower-standing Shawn Michaels (there was NO WAY Shawn was winning at Survivor Series and everyone knew it), and d) I knew several different people who said they were at a Red Deer house show and saw Bret win the title THERE. I can only assume it was a Dusty Finish or they were just mistaken.
ReplyDeleteThe point is, he didn't draw. He was a boring champion that most people didn't want to pay to see. Would somebody else have done better? They could hardly do worse.
ReplyDeleteReally can't agree with you that bret didn't draw. Bret drew as a tag team act, as a mid-carder and as a main eventer throughout his WWF run, especially bringing in fans in Canada and Europe. About the only time he didn't draw was in WCW and there are a whole heap of reasons why that went south.
ReplyDeleteDid he draw as much as Hogan or Austin? No, but then those two (along with maybe Rock and Taker) stand apart in the modern era.
Bret was undone by shitty booking and piss poor challengers.
As for your point that someone else could hardly have done worse I'd like to direct you to the buyrates when Yoko, Diesel or early HBK were champ.
don't bother with him, he isn't worth debating.
ReplyDeleteYeah. Because I'm right.
ReplyDeleteThat's where you're headed.
ReplyDeleteThey were all pretty much the same. But Bret, of course, gets a pass for not drawing. And he drew as a tag team or midcarder? How do you figure that one? Do you ask people on the way in who they paid for?
ReplyDeleteI was at a Richfield Coliseum house show in mid-Septmeber 1992 and at intermission they announced that the Survivor Series main event would be Warrior/Savage vs. Flair/Ramon (and that tickets were on sale, of course). Not sure when the match was announced on TV (it could have been after Flair dropped the belt) but that was the plan then.
ReplyDeleteThe WHT looks a lot better than the WWE belt. I don't want to see that belt go. Too much history.
ReplyDeleteBret's book wasn't ghostwritten.
ReplyDeleteI really don't want Jericho to waste a feud at this point in his career having mediocre matches with Zack Ryder. I'd be fine with Kofi, though. Selfishly, I really would love to see he and Rock wrestle each other one more time.
ReplyDeleteBret was always a better wrestler than Tito.
ReplyDeleteThey can always change the WWE belt.
ReplyDeleteNo, not even close. Suggesting they drop a belt or two that really aren't anything more than decoration, does not lead to "let's shut down a multi-million dollar company, especially right after they drew in the biggest Wrestlemania butyrate ever."
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment and I know Shawn would have added to the workrate in the main event, but I believe keeping the world champion and IC champion in separate matches like the traditional Survivor Series match ups. I'm thinking about the whole card and not just one match. Plus there was an issue with Shango and Bret at the time as they had a mini feud going on.
ReplyDeleteShit you're right. Maybe Flair would have remained champ by then?
ReplyDeleteYeah I don't see how matches between Ryder and Jericho could be "mediocre". Ryder isn't the best wrestler on the roster that's for sure but he can put on a good match when he wants to.
ReplyDeleteBret was clearly over but it's highly debatable how much money he actually drew. I think it was determined he caused oversees attendence to raise dramatically and not just in Canada.
ReplyDeleteThat Big Gold Belt represents WCW. I know the title was created in 2002, but that belt still represents the old guard. It has history.
ReplyDeleteFrankly, I prefer the term "World Heavyweight Champion" to "WWE Champion" anyway.
It really annoyed me when Big Show named dropped NWA guys when he was listing off guys who won the WHT several months ago. WWE itself has acknowledged that the title is NOT part of the NWA/WCW lineage and is a "spiritual successor" only.
ReplyDeleteHistory that includes Jeff Jarrett, David Arquette, and Vince Russo.
ReplyDeleteJust merge the belts and call the new title the WWE World Heavyweight Champion.
Eh. I consider the Big Gold Belts to be all one lineage, I'm pretty indifferent to what the WWE tells me.
ReplyDeleteThat's fine but I don't even want the title to share that lineage.
ReplyDeleteThe company was healthier with him on top than they were with Yoko, Diesel, or HBK (the other long-term champs before Austin)- at least, according to Meltzer. I don't have any numbers, but my understanding was always that Bret drew well overseas and in Canada, while HBK was a (marginally) better draw in the States.
ReplyDeleteI agree, none of those guys drew paticularily well, but for some reason Bret and Diesel are the guys who get roasted for it (Yoko is generally just ignored altogether). So no, Bret doesn't get a pass, his lack of drawing power (in comparison to Austin/Hogan/Rock) is often cited when his name comes up when discussing GOAT.
If there's a guy who gets a pass for that stuff, it's Shawn. If Bret had the run Shawn did on top (in terms of ratings, buyrates, etc), retired just as the business exploded, and then came back as the business went into the shitter again, I'm sure you'd be on here reminding everyone of it.
A. How do you know? Some ghostwriters take no credit at all, just payment. Do you have a source for that? I'm honestly curious because to my knowledge the only non-ghost written book was Foley's (which as he told you in his 2nd book, got an extensive editing job)
ReplyDeleteB. That's why I also said editor. A book by a non-writer like Bret, with a distinct lack of formal higher education (a short stint at community college was it) would require a hell of a lot of editing to be as well-written and coherent as the book was.
So, aware that am being baited here and that also nobody is probably reading these comments this far after the fact but I just wanted to go away and check my assumptions that Bret drew as well as anyone in that era.
ReplyDeleteSo taking a period from Summerslam 92 (first PPV with Bret as headline draw) through to WM XIV I looked at the average buy rate for the PPVs with each guy as champ in this era
Bret
Diesel
HBK
Taker
Yoko
PPVs
16
9
12
5
5
Av Buyrate
0.95
0.79
0.69
0.60
1.14
Sid
Taker
Yoko
PPVs
3
5
5
Av Buyrate
0.57
0.60
1.14
Bret comes out just fine, drawing more than anyone else in this era with the exception of Yoko (who I've probably inflated by aloocating the relatively big buy rates of WM X and KOTR 93 to ... hey, I'm only spending 5 minutes looking this up)
HBK is the one who really stinks it up as others have said. Take out the monster buy rate of WM XIV (which was mainly Tyson / Austin anyway) and he ends up with an average of 0.54
And it's an entirely reasonable assumtion to make that Bret was drawing earlier in his career. Nobody but Vince will have the figures but he's not going to have ket a guy on his books for that many yearsand steadily built his profile if he wasn't drawing.