Hey Scott,
I was contemplating the mysteries of the WWEUniverse, and the following topics began to trend.
1. Before Vince was “outed” as the owner of the WWF, he was the excitable announcer and was still all over the product. But did Vince Sr. ever have an on-screen role? I know that the concept of the “wrestling authority figure” hadn’t really been invented, and kayfabe would have been crucial at the time, but I still can’t believe that the guy who started the WWF could sit in the front row of MSG without anyone knowing who he was.
2. This one gets raised a lot, but who should have won the ’99 Rumble? Austin needs to be in the main event of Mania, but if he wins a third straight Rumble from no.1, it would kill the entire roster. On the other hand, was anyone over enough to eliminate him? Should they have taken a chance on HHH, as he was getting the push soon anyway? Could they have had Big Show debut a month early, or was he still under contract with WCW at this time? Kane? Taker? Golga? Anyone would have been a better winner than Vince, but I just don’t see a way out. Blame Russo.
3. Is it true that HHH was supposed to beat Taker at Mania X7 with Shawn’s help? I only heard this rumour recently, and couldn’t believe the Streak could have been ended before it became a key selling point of main every year, including last year, when HHH met Undertaker for the first time.
4. Is Savage/Steamboat the only *****-match that’s less than 15 minutes long?
5. They usually get celebrities involved at Mania, so given Vince’s world revolves around Twitter, why doesn’t he just throw money at Gaga or Bieber and get them to appear and plug the hell out of the event beforehand? The Little Monsters and Beliebers rush to buy the event, it does 4.6 million buys worldwide, and Vince’s genius is confirmed. It couldn't fail, right? Right?
Please don’t use the term “WWE Universe” on this blog.
1. Vincent J. never appeared on TV that I’m aware of. Most of the promoters of the time were strictly backstage, which kind of shoots down the whole “You have to be a wrestler to understand wrestling” argument, since I don’t think anyone would argue that Vince Sr. or Toots Mondt or the Crocketts didn’t understand wrestling. Of course, once the sport became primarily a TV outlet, then The Promoter became a TV character as much as anyone.
2. Big Show was definitely still under contract. They were cutting it really close by having him debut at the February show, in fact. That being said, Austin is the biggest star in the history of stars, so fuck the rest of the roster, he should have won the match for a third straight year.
3. It’s true that Shawn was supposed to get involved, but no one has ever said that HHH was supposed to beat Undertaker. I’m pretty sure that HHH was doing the job whether Shawn got involved or not, it’s just that Shawn was originally going to cost him the match and set up a HHH v. HBK feud.
4. Well, ratings are subjective, but it’s the only one that I’ve given ***** to.
5. He’d probably put Bieber over Dolph Ziggler, too.
The main event scene in 99 was pretty thin. I don't know who else could have won that would have been believable other than Austin really. The only two guys on his level Rock and Mankind were already booked in a title match. On that note, it's surprising they misused Big Show like they did. They were hurting for main event talent and it seemed logical to push him into a high profile feud with Austin for the title right away.
ReplyDeleteThere isn't anyone in the world who would pay $65 just to see a short, crappy Justin Bieber or Lady Gaga appearance. Even if one of them wrestled in a match, their fans would have to be REALLY ridiculous obsessives to drop that much money on what anyone could tell them would just be a short promotional appearance. The only way they could ever really make serious money from a celebrity involved in Mania is if they played to their demographic and pulled off something that people would shell out money just to see on its own. Like, if in some fictive universe Vince had the money and the pull to make this happen, if he got Guns N' Roses original line-up to reunite for one night only at Mania. People would pay $65 just to see that on its own.
ReplyDeleteScott, didn't you give Tully-Magnum "I quit" 5 stars? I think that may be the flag bearer for shortest 5 star match in history. Amazing pay off to the feud.
ReplyDeleteWould the Little Monsters WATCH The Federation? Hell no, they watch roller derby.
ReplyDelete3. I believe it was on Shawn's DVD that they alluded to Triple H vouching for HBK and they being punished when Shawn showed up to a Raw in 2001 all f'd up on drugs. They make it seem like the job was because of that, but who knows if that's true.
ReplyDelete4. Slamboree 1994 tag team match you gave full snowflakes and that match was like 10 minutes. Only one I could think of - may not still apply.
5. Vince would be better doing another LT celebrity match. Football is the most popular sport - 25-30 million watch the NFL every week. A linebacker like Ray Lewis or Bart "Can't Wait" Scott would be a great WrestleMania attraction match. Hmm Scott plays in NY....
I thought it was actually longer than Savage-Steamboat, but I don't have the rant in front of me to check.
ReplyDeleteI swear Clay Matthews looks more like a pro wrestler than a football player.
ReplyDeleteShaq, who also has a passion for the business, would be an excellent choice. Just PLEASE keep the mic away from him.
But, nobody would compare right now to Bieber or Gaga. Especially considering the E's demographic targets at the moment.
It's close, looked it up. Tully-Magnum clocked in at 14:39 and Steamboat-Savage was 14:34. Two amazing matches, both 5 stars and under 15 minutes.
ReplyDeleteCactus/Payne vs Nasties was a 5 star match that went like 8 minutes, I think.
ReplyDeleteScott gave 5 stars to the Mysterio-Guerrero '97 Havoc match, which was under 14 minutes, and the Sting & Luger-Steiners match at Superbrawl I, which was under 12 minutes. And that Magnum-Tully I Quit match was definitely under 15 minutes.
ReplyDeleteI remember there was a discussion about this a couple of years ago, but I can't remember what the shortest 5 star match was (by Scott's reckoning).
Even though he was misused a lot, Kane was still over and had the most main event credibility in the Corperation with the exception of The Rock. I also thought Shamrock had what it took to be a main event draw, but he was booked poorly.
ReplyDeletere VKM Sr. appearing on tv, the WWF instead frequently had Canadian promoter Jack Tunney appearing as the "President" whenever someone needed to be "suspended." (As Scott of course knows.)
ReplyDeleteScott has it at 4 3/4.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.rspwfaq.com/2007/02/22/spring-stampede/
Undertaker. He was used backstage at the Rumble, when Mabel was 'turned into' Viscera. He wasn't injured as far as I recall. Have him as the #30 entrant if he WAS injured. You can even have that godawful HIAC match at WM15 with Bossman still, by having Bossman somehow lose him his WM shot, to Austin.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/236024/Poor-Performance-Of-WWE-FIlms,-Updated-Schedule,-Revealed-At-WWE-Shareholders-Meeting.htm
ReplyDeleteSorry for the threadjack but read the first paragraph. What...the...fuck. Shut it down Vince. Admit you were wrong...again. Your wrestlers/writers are making fun of the films ON THE AIR.
Yeah it won't shut down anytime soon, at least not until the Leprechan reboot is done. Plus aren't they helping out with a Colin Ferral film this year or next?
ReplyDeleteMaybe Kane will try and get Tebow to Embrace the Hate!
ReplyDeleteIf Cena were a better quarterback he'd absolutely be the John Cena of the nfl.
ReplyDeleteI always thought a Lady Gaga appearance would fit right in with Wrestlemania somehow.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I was fine with Vince winning the Rumble. Although I would have
been fine with Austin winning again, too. There wasn't really anyone
else in the Rumble other than Austin or Vince that would have made sense
to win it.
Pretty sure Undertaker was injured at that point, which is why he wasn't in any matches until the run up to Mania. He didn't wrestle in the Rumble or the February ppv, and as people have noted even though the WWF had a head of steam, they were hurting for top-level talent and wouldn't be leaving him off the show.
ReplyDeleteAny of the corporate heels could have won the Rumble and set up a match with Austin running the gauntlet against them to get the title shot back. But Austin getting screwed over to lead to the Vince win made about as much sense as anything else. They still needed something to do at the February show, and Vince winning, then getting goaded into putting the title shot up in February made sense.
ReplyDeleteI still remember the NASTY powerbomb Eddie gave Rey in that Havoc match. I've never seen one delivered with that much force.
ReplyDeleteSteiners-Luger/Sting totally deserved five stars. It went against the standard tag team forumula match but everybody was hitting every move so perfectly. Too bad it had to end with interference.
Sad thing is, a Leprechaun reboot is probably a guaranteed hit, at least a minor one anyway. The original still has fans, I'm pretty sure - I know at least two or three people who would go see it just to see how awful it could be. One of whom, incidentally, is also already a Hornswoggle fan.
ReplyDeleteThis, of course, will lead to more WWE reboots of popular films. My money's on the Princess Bride, with Big Show filling in for Andre the Giant. Perhaps Santino as Inigo Montoya? The obvious choice would've been Eddie Guerrero, which is a shame.
Vince Sr. was already dead by the time Tunney appeared on WWF TV.
ReplyDeleteThe other two powerbombs that I'd put on that level also involved Guerrero, one giving, one receiving. The one he gave was to RVD during their Backlash '02 match, while the one he took was during a Nitro match with Benoit in '95 (it was on the Hard Knocks set).
ReplyDeleteJust brutal, all of them.
The only way I could see Lady Gaga fitting into the mix would be if they did something with her and Zack Ryder, since Ryder's whole gimmick is the dance club kid thing. Bring her onto Wrestlemania, sing, and have her bitchslap Eve and kiss Ryder/give Ryder revenge against Eve via him hooking up with her at the PPV as far as "I don't need you, I've got Lady Gaga!".....
ReplyDeleteAlternatively, have her play "Government Hooker" as Cena's WM entrance music as a celebration of how John Cena is a huge fucking tool ala the song lyrics.
I assumed that's where they were going with the Maria Menounos thing, where she'd make out with Ryder in front of Eve to help him get his win back, so to speak. Of course, they wound up doing the exact opposite.
ReplyDeleteI don't really get the problem with Vince winning the Rumble, given how he won and what it set up. They had to do Austin Vs. McMahon sometime. I don't think Shamrock or Kane would have worked as well as the guys Austin had to go through to get his title shot.
ReplyDeleteAnd Ziggler would make Bieber look like a million bucks. If nothing else, it could be fun to compare how he sold a Bieber punch to how he sold Hugh Jackman's.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure many will feel like I'm over-rating it but I was watching the Shelton Benjamin Vs HBK Gold Rush match from 2005 the other day and damn me if that isn't an amazing match.
ReplyDeleteIt's 14:44 including commercial break. The ads do disrupt the flow and I guess you could knock off a few 1/4 stars for it losing a little momentum in the last minute, but then it regains that in spades with THAT ending.
It's certainly worth a mention in lists of best sub 15 minute matches.
You can also make an argument for it in terms of influence as so many matches finish on the springboard/dive into the other guys' finisher now. Hell, Christian did it pretty much every week with Orton last summer
After some research (I spent 5 minutes typing shit into Google), I can't find a mention to him being injured, but he did take time off. Maybe it was just a vacation. He was ON the show, but only in a backstage segment. Perhaps you're right though since he wasn't used on the February PPV either. Or maybe the idea of his epic return at Wrestlemania was the plan. Against Bossman. Hmm.
ReplyDeleteThey never should of strayed away from original way of how they released their films. I'm sure they made more than what they make now.
ReplyDeleteGood God in heaven that would be blasphemous.
ReplyDelete"That being said, Austin is the biggest star in the history of stars, so
ReplyDeletefuck the rest of the roster, he should have won the match for a third
straight year."
I would love a discussion between 2012 Scott and 1999 Scott on that.
absolutely. Austin vs. McMahon was a money match waiting to happen (but I too wouldn' have headlined WrestleMania with it).
ReplyDeleteThere was a minor stir late last year when Jason Reitman had a table read for princess bride, against rumors of a remake, VInny Mac actually trying=Internet Riot
ReplyDeleteHe gave Cactus/Sullivan vs. Nasties five stars and I don't think that match went longer than 10 minutes
ReplyDelete"Please don’t use the term “WWE Universe” on this blog."
ReplyDeleteI object to the term "WWE", period, but after nearly 10 years I've obviously lost that battle.
Before the surprise announcement of the Rock as guest host of Mania, it seemed like rumors were swirling that Bieber was going to host Mania. I was actually hoping that he would doing a musical number before Cena's entrance, like they had MGK do this year.
ReplyDelete1999 was such a strange year. You have Vince of all people winning the Rumble, and later in the year having him actually win the title. Then to top off all the absurdity, you have Billy Gunn win the King of the Ring tournament.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget Rey Mysterio Jr vs Eddie Guerrero at Halloween Havoc 1997 as well, which was under 15 for sure.
ReplyDeleteI think you went the full monty with Dustin Rhodes/Steamboat vs The Enforcers at Clash 17 as well, which ran just a hair under 15 mins.
The 'E is going to do whatever they damn well please..
ReplyDeleteJason Reitman does a lot of those table reads though, and I never understand why anyone gets up in arms about it. All they are is a private performance, where Reitman gets some actors he thinks would be interesting doing certain roles and has them try it out for a crowd. Recently he did an all-black Reservoir Dogs. It's kinda masturbatory, but its not like encroaching on anything.
ReplyDeleteI thought you gave Mysterio/Psychosis ***** and it was under 15.
ReplyDeleteWasn't Kane, at this point, on the outs with the Corporation and they tried to have him committed to an asylum? I believe this was, in fact, the Rumble where Kane was eliminated when escaping from asylum guards wielding shock sticks and straitjackets (ah, Russo.....).
ReplyDeleteJust shift the timeline a bit and have Kane forced to join the Corporation under the threat of incarceration. He wins the Rumble, eliminating Austin at the end, and then the next night on RAW, Vince has Kane renounce the WM title shot or else he'd be committed.
The next week on the show, you can have the Mills Lane cameo or whatever that led to the 'if the Rumble winner doesn't get the shot at Mania, the runner-up gets it' situation and boom, Austin gets the title shot and history continues as it happened.