Scott,
JR recently told a bunch of disillusioned fans that the titles don't mean anything. This was nothing people who regularly pay attention to WWE did not know already, but it had me wondering just what, exactly, is supposed to be the thing (or things) we root for? I know the company has tried to distance itself from the rassling reputation and they want it to be seen as a loose collection of soap opera, comedy and competition elements, but wouldn't you agree that this kind of format lends itself to horrible, disjointed television? None of the regulars outside of John Cena ever have a distinct purpose. They just randomly float in and out of segments, have unmemorable feuds then move on to the next random guy. Nothing of consequence ever happens so it's no different than "Saved by the Bell" without the campy and unintentional humor.
Maybe I'm over thinking it and maybe I'm wrong, too, but since I started watching regularly again last summer, it just feels like there's no focus and nothing for people to get behind. Well, except for John Cena.
Thanks.
I was having that exact same internal monologue the other day, my friend. Like, let's say you're a fan of Randy Orton. What did he get out of his feud with Kane aside from a few wins and a few losses? Nothing, he just moves onto a thrown-together World title match and then BAM, gets attacked by Jericho because it's their time to be programmed together. Or why would I want to get behind Brodus Clay at this point, when it's been, what, 4 months now and he's still doing the exact same match and going nowhere with it? It used to be that fans would jump on that kind of bandwagon early and get rewarded for it ala Rikishi, but now the guy's literally become something to fill time in between segments on PPV. Why should I care if the tag champs are Kofi/Bourne, Kofi/Truth, Truth/Miz, Miz/Morrison, or Swagger/Ziggler? They're all the same person mixed up in the midcard interchangeably at this point anyway.
It's a bad, bad time to be a fan in a lot of ways.
You can look at it from one of two perspectives: the WWE of 2012 is either the WWF of 1996, or the AWA of 1986. The promotion is filled with a wealth of young talent now, but with competition luring the attention and the young talent into its ranks (MMA), it is at a crossroads. We could be on the precipice of a major revolution in the sport, with the young guns (Punk, Bryan, Ziggler, et. all) redefining wrestling. Or we could be in the downward spiral where the company never again pulls itself out of the doldrums.
ReplyDeleteTo me the way RAW and WWE is booked, it feels like that episode of South Park where we find out that the writers of Family Guy are manatees moving idea balls to a machine. It's like the same thing Vince and Co. do the same thing. They don't take any risks anymore or do anything outside the box. It all feels bland and the same. Summer of Punk felt different then it led to the same damn bland thing.
ReplyDeleteThey need real competition if they're going to buck up their ideas, otherwise they will keep playing it safe. You guys fancy getting a shit-load of money together and starting our own promotion?
ReplyDeleteThose that defended Brock losing to Cena need not post on this thread. :-) j/k
ReplyDeleteLet's see how it plays out. If I could look into my crystal ball I don't think Vince would knowing him, use Brock as a 5 million dollar jobber.
ReplyDeleteKickstarter, here we come!
ReplyDeleteNot a true thread jack, but based on CultureBilly's statement...if we could start a fed, what 12-16 wrestlers would you take to start it? Use age, skill set and salary demands as your requirements (would you rather have Brock for 5 million a year or Damien Sandow for 100 grand, as an example)
ReplyDeleteLast night was the first time in a while where I actually forgot about RAW. The previous two weeks I made a conscious decision not to watch, but this time the fact that the show was on never even crossed my mind. Once that starts happening, I can easily go several months without watching and not feel like I'm missing anything. I'm wondering if there are others who fall into the same pattern?
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised the whole Lesnar thing ended up bothering me as much as it did, but it may have just been the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm just sick and tired of WWE starting off with a good premise and then watching it dissolve into the typical nonsense because Vince is a stubborn old man and everyone is afraid to stand up to him. And as I've said before, if this stuff was producing high ratings and strong buyrates, at least I could understand why they were stubbornly staying the course. But when the entire fandom (and not just "geeks on the internet") make it abundantly clear who and what they want to see and you insist on shoving the likes of Lord Tensai down their throats to prove a point...well, it's clear that something isn't working.
Speaking of, I can't believe we haven't had a full thread dedicated to the news coming out that he only has like 20+ days on his contract for the entire year...for five fucking million dollars.
ReplyDeleteAllegedly they want to do HHH/Brock and then no bring him back around again until at least Survivor Series and then of course use most of those days in the build to WM.
It's remarkable how poorly the fucked up his character.
I mean really, Russo couldn't have screwed up Cena/Lesnar and yet...here we are...
Seriously? Lets see how it plays out? lol...umm, ok.
ReplyDeleteDo you think this is what CM Punk expected when they handed the belt to him last year? He sparked a brief revolution of interest, and now he's the champ, but nowhere near the focus. Everything went back to the status quo really fast.
ReplyDeleteI was ridiculously intrigued by the end of Extreme Rules, when Cena hinted at not being around for a while, because I have no idea how the WWE would handle a situation where Cena isn't the focus of the show. And within 24 hours, that interest was slammed by the same old thing.
Kind of on topic: I was listening to yesterday's PW Torch livecast and they referenced something that was said over the weekend about the 3-hour Raws: It was something along the lines of "this is the moment we will look back on 3-5 years from now as the beginning of the end of the WWE," referencing Nitro going to 3 hours a few years before the end.
Seems a bit hyperbolic, no? I imagine things will be back to the status quo by Survivor Series. Two hour Raw, Cena in the main event. The more things change...
I'm being sarcastic.
ReplyDeleteReally, 20+ days? lol! I think bignasty brought this up in another thread in how they literally ran 2 months worth of angles in 3 weeks in the lead up to ER. It's a shame they didn't just bring in Heyman right off the bat to absorb some of Brock's dates.
ReplyDeleteOh well, we'll always have the ER match to look back on.
I sort of forgot Raw existed from 2005-2011, so yes, it's very easy to fall into that trap.
ReplyDeleteThe Lesnar thing drove most people away for two very good reasons: 1) They had the chance to do something wholly unique to the business and they threw it away in favor of the same old shit, and 2) That smiling "Hi mom!" promo to close out the PPV.
It's one thing when Cena shows no effects of a beating the next night...but while he's STILL BLEEDING in the ring he just shrugs it off?
I basically still watch for Punk/Bryan/Swagler and my kids are still interested in Funk/Santino and Cena to a certain extent but even they've gotten kind of bored with Cena (especially when's programmed against a black hole of charisma like Ace).
Ehh...the Torch guys are always predicting the sky falling. Will it mark the end? I don't think so, but it could mark the beginning of a severe downturn.
ReplyDeleteHonestly between the shareholders, the possibility of Vince taking it private again, and USA basically saying "we're with you until the fucking end" the WWE isn't going anywhere any time soon.
There are still millions and millions and millions of dollars in set design and fireworks and other production values that we'll start seeing disappear long before the show ever goes off the air.
Yeah, I can't seem to be able to let go of the Lesnar thing either, lol. It bothers me way more than it should. Thank god for Daniel Bryan and CM Punk, seriously. If it weren't for those 2 guys and the fact that they're in a feud, I might've taken a small vacation from the WWE.
ReplyDeleteLet's not sell Russo short here. I can easily picture him having booked Over the Limit as Cena vs Lesnar in a Laurinitis on a pole match.
ReplyDeleteD'oh!
ReplyDeleteAs long as I can be a play-by-play guy in the vein of Gorilla Monsoon (do I have to find my own Bobby Heenan?) I'm totally game!
ReplyDeleteI have no doubt Russo would have completely fucked it up, but he would have completely fucked it up AFTER having Lesnar go over to set up Lesnar as a crazy monster.
ReplyDeleteI fucking HATE those Cena promo's leading up to OTL when he's saying stuff like "You hired an unstoppable monster to take me out!"
Well...I guess...I mean if by "unstoppable monster" you mean "guy I stopped with one lucky punch".
John Cena is certainly the star and I do think emailer's point is true for the mid-card guys Scott mentioned, but I don't think it is true for Punk, Bryan, Sheamus or Jericho. They have all been involved near the top of the card for months. The Punk vs. Bryan feud could be very cool. Randy Orton really had nothing going heading into WrestleMania and the Kane feud definitely fit in the writer's point but the Jericho story could again be very cool.
ReplyDeleteGladly will serve as Heenan/Ventura. I demand Chico Santana matches every week!
ReplyDeleteThey used to say that guys like Hulk Hogan and Kevin Nash were the smartest men in wrestling with how they got paid crazy amounts of money for little in-ring work.
ReplyDeleteI think the smart torch has been passed to Mr. Lesnar.
We all know Vince brought Lesnar back to job him out to get even for Lesnar walking out on him.
ReplyDeleteYou guys are so right. All of these problems would be fixed if Brock Lesnar had gone over. His contract would have more dates, there would be no risk of him flaking out, John Cena would be revolutionary and hip and cool...all of these things would be true if the WWE had just listened to the infinite wisdom of the IWC. Honest to god.
ReplyDeleteAlthough it's hurting in ratings as well, I wish Ultimate Fighter was programmed against RAW.
ReplyDeleteSomeone's bitching about people bitching!
ReplyDeleteQuick!
Call a bitch!
The part I don't get is that sports can create tons of drama. The drama and entertainment they're always spouting on about should be behind becoming the champion. In every good story, there's always a character motivation for things. WWE never creates character motivation for anything. When people watch a wrestling show they should constantly be reminded who the champions are and who the top contenders are because the title is the holy grail so to speak. Johnny Ace should be angry at Cena for becoming a threat to the title. Instead he's angry at Cena because Cena doesn't give a shit about the title and is just butthurt over lame jokes.
ReplyDeleteIt really is starting to seem that way right? What the f....
ReplyDeleteI'll be Pat Patterson!
ReplyDeleteWait, what were we doing again?
Bitching and pointing out when you think an opinion is ridiculous are not the same thing.
ReplyDeleteI basically watch only for Bryan/Punk right now, as well
ReplyDeleteI like the comparison of WWF 1996 but the company didn't really surge forward until Bret was gone and Austin got the big push with Michaels injured. Then the young talent like Rock, HHH and others moved forward because there were spots open for the taking.
ReplyDeleteWho is the Bret, Austin and Michaels of this time period? Cena, Punk and HHH?
No argument on any of those points. I was just responding to the idea that "Russo couldn't have screwed up Cena/Lesnar" which is what you stated above.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I don't think people realize that as successful as Burn Notice, Royal Pains, etc. are, Raw still does double or triple the ratings for USA.
ReplyDeleteAnd I have no idea why Cena seems mad that Ace beat him and gets serious. Yet Rock beats him and Lesnar nearly DESTROYS HIM and Cena is all happy go lucky. I am guessing Cena is either bipolar or the company can't write very well and make Cena serious when it actually matters?
ReplyDeleteIn all of this, I still blame HHH.
ReplyDeleteContrary guy is awesome. Why would you be here disagreeing about Cena being boring when you could be on Twitter getting #BEASTAR trending?
ReplyDeleteWill you stop!
ReplyDeleteWouldn't that rule actually? If we find out that all these years Cena has been a Patrick Bateman like psychotic that doesn't care about getting beat up but takes unstylish suits SUPER SERIOUS.
ReplyDelete"I have no doubt Russo would have completely fucked it up, but he would
ReplyDeletehave completely fucked it up AFTER having Lesnar go over to set up
Lesnar as a crazy monster."
And this wouldn't have been worse...how? Having Lesnar destroy your most profitable commodity and then disappear is preferable to having your most profitable commodity destroy Lesnar before he disappears? Just as ridiculous now as it was when the match took place.
That would rule. In fact I hope Vince is reading this or one of ham and egger writers.
ReplyDeleteWhat an e-mail. Very thought-provoking. I can basically think of only two exceptions at this point to the randomness and 50/50 booking.
ReplyDelete1. CM Punk's quest to prove he's the best in the world. He seems hellbent on taking everyone, be it the best wrestlers or the establishment. 2. Daniel Bryan's character arc. He evolved as a decent guy desperate to win the title and then as an a-hole desperately holding onto the title. Or should I say devolved? And his interactions with AJ have been the most entertaining things on either show, in my opinion. There's also the subplot of AJ's possible descent into madness (or just the appearance thereof).
Now, both of those long-term angles have intersected. So, basically, I only have to watch one or two segments of Raw. BUT I still like to watch Kofi, RTruth, Ziggler, Ryder, Henry, Christian, Jericho, and even Orton do their thing. But, as pointed out in the post, they're being treated like interchangeable parts.
I never disagreed about Cena being boring. I disagreed that Lesnar going over would have changed a single thing about the current state of the product. Sorry if that went over your head.
ReplyDeleteIt wouldn't have been worse because Brock would still be a draw. There would still be some interest in a Brock match. There would be a big money rematch that they could promote.
ReplyDeleteCrazy enough, when you spend $5 million you try to make some of it back. I don't really get it. I'm not a businessman.
The WWE Championship is the new IC Championship, and the new WWE Championship is being John Cena.
ReplyDeleteLol. No seriously, you're smart one trolly guy.
ReplyDeleteWe all look up to you.
WE ALL WANT TO BE A STAR TOO.
You know, I keep asking this and have yet to get a satisfactory answer, but if there was all this concern about Lesnar and his flakiness and whatnot then WHY THE FUCK DID YOU SIGN HIM TO A FIVE MILLION DOLLAR DEAL IN THE FIRST PLACE? Was that money just burning a hole in Vince's pocket? And if they didn't just sign him to be the World's Highest Paid JTTS and to thumb their noses at UFC, then what was the point?
ReplyDelete1) In your scenario, Russo would have fucked up the angle regardless so who cares if Brock is still a draw?
ReplyDelete2) In both reality and in your scenario, Brock is still a huge draw. Only amongst the super smart mark crowd has he been somehow damaged.
And now you have me imagining Fink...
ReplyDeleteAND NEEEEEEW....JOOOOOOOHN CEEEEEENA OF THE WOOOOOOOORLD....CEEEEEE.....EEEEEEEEM.....PUUUUUUUUUUNK~!
There's a lot of things I didn't like about Lesnar's personality, but given what we know about Vince and the wrestling business as a whole, you gotta give him credit - he was made into a Superstar and walked away from it because he wasn't happy. Then years later he's able to come back and negotiate a ridiculous contract in large part because a lot of people in the business are still pissed that people in a fake sport didn't get a fake win over him. I highly doubt Lesnar gives a shit about wrestling enough to care about his "legacy" so they're pretty much handing him $5 million so their top guys can look back and say "I beat Brock Lesnar". I'd take it.
ReplyDelete1) Who cares? Wrestling fans. Particularly fans like us that actually want to see the product continue for a few decades.
ReplyDelete2) No. He's not. Not unless he's facing Rocky. The only other draw they could put him against...already beat him before the ink on the contract could even dry.
With the understanding that Cena/Orton/Punk/Storm/Roode arent going to leave the WWE/TNA because of how high up they are, and Big Show/Undertaker/Kane/HHH/Rock/Austin etc would never leave because they have good job security and a WWE legacy, i think a decent enough rival promotion can still realistically be made.
ReplyDeleteFirst and foremost is throw money at Brock to generate interest in a new promotion regardless of his salary demands. Id take John Morrison and Carlito from the indie abyss. Steen, Richards and Elgin from ROH, swipe AJ Styles and Samoa Joe from TNA and promise main event status to motivate them. Id take Ziggler, Rhodes, Christian, Booker T, Ryback, Danielson, Kidd and Sin Cara from WWE. Assuming this is a little down the track id try and get Edge out of retirement as well and get some luchas and japs, KENTA if possible. Then id structure the promotion like this:
Consistent main eventers: Lesnar-Styles-Joe-Richards
Occasional main eventers: Morrison-Ziggler-Danielson-Elgin
Minor title contenders: Rhodes-Christian-Carlito-Booker T-Ryback-Steen
Cruiserweight contenders: Kidd-Sin Cara-KENTA-whoever.
Edge can slot in wherever on a part-time basis. Id also get Styles and Heyman on commentary and Foley as onscreen authority figure. I think this roster has decent enough star power to grab attention, decent enough wrestling talent to attract audiences, and doesnt break the bank getting high profile WWE/TNA guys.
Brave guy on the internet called me a troll. :-(
ReplyDeleteAgain, if you want to put on your thinking cap and get your head around this...Lesnar going over would have changed the current state of Raw not one iota.
They haven't been short on young talent over the last few years though. Morrison, Shelton, Carlito, Masters, MVP, others I'm forgetting...they keep guys in the same spot for so long that they have nothing else to do with them so they get released and replace them with new young guys who will serve the same role. Dolph Ziggler seems to have all the tools for a main event run - but I wouldn't be surprised if it never happens and he turns into another Val Venis.
ReplyDeleteUntil the two-month break last year that killed its momentum, Burn Notice was regularly breaking 5 million viewers...
ReplyDeleteplease dont start with the calling people who have different opinions trolls again
ReplyDeleteI really think they felt it was worth the risk. That footage of Cena beating Lesnar they can use forever if he does flake. If not, even better. Having Lesnar involved in WM next year -- and the build to it -- will be huge.
ReplyDeleteYou answered your own question with that last sentence.
ReplyDeleteThe flakiness is all just an excuse. I mean, we know for a fact they purposely kayfabed a tantrum in the back at the end of Extreme Rulez so they could float it the whole next week that "Brock was being jobbed to test him".
This is two-fold for VInce, he gets "revenge" on Brock for leaving him AND gets to make his whole roster look better than "the best the UFC has to offer".
I call you a troll because you purposely come here and take the opposing opinion and then act like it's everyone else that's the asshole for agreeing on a point after discussing it for 3 months.
ReplyDeleteYou swoop in and start insulting the thoughts being shared here as though this isn't stuff we've all been reasoning out for weeks and weeks.
You're simply wrong. Brock going over leaves them several different places to go that they can't go now. How much better is Lesnar/Ace than Big Show/Ace as a team? How much better is Cena not sure if he can get it done anymore because this monster is here now to "destroy his life". How much better is Cena spending months doubting himself to allow for some character twists?
All of those things are better, and that's only three examples of dozens that have been shared here.
I get it. You don't think the product will ever get better. You've given up on it. And that's fine, but then why come to a wrestling blog and complain about people that DO want it to be better?
That's trolling behavior.
What part of my attempt at a light hearted jokey post did you not understand? The fact that I put in a smiley and a "j/k" to make sure people wouldn't get all serious obviously went right over your head.
ReplyDeleteAnd it doesn't look like it will change anytime soon with their big idea of replacing storytelling with facebook polls.
ReplyDeleteI think nobody has much purpose or story anymore. People come and go with little explanation. Rock, HBK, and Undertaker haven't been seen since Wrestlemania. Foley and Piper show up and leave. Kharma comes back at the Rumble and that's it. Layla comes back with no explanation of where she's been. Tag teams are formed just because. Alicia Fox may or may not be a heel. Fighting over spilled coffee or shampoo endorsements may have seemed stupid back in the day, but at least guys had purpose.
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts exactly. The world heavyweight title is basically the TV/European belt at this stage.
ReplyDeleteCouldn't agree more. I spend more time on this blog discussing WWE programming than I do watching it. Sad, both in the sense that I should get a life, and that their shows are that bad.
ReplyDeleteI will concede, however, that they've been on a good run of PPVs this year, but that's almost in spite of themselves.
Which leads to the depressing realization that the IC title is now the Hardcore championship :(
ReplyDeleteI guess they did know what they were doing when they merged those belts back in 02.
Chin -- I didn't "swoop in" from anywhere. I read this blog everyday, I just don't live in the comments section. I did post after Extreme Rules, disagreeing with what is and remains a nonsensical opinion that the sky has somehow fallen for poor Brock and the WWE because they did not book him to destroy their main star.
ReplyDeleteI do think the product will get better. I think the product needs to get better. I just don't agree that there is only a single way to do that.
Lesnar/Ace couldn't have worked because there are not enough dates on Brock's contract. Wishing that were not so does not make it not so.
Cena doubting himself on a losing streak would have been intriguing, but that does not mean it would have significantly changed the culture of the show. Focusing on Cena doubting himself is still focusing on Cena.
I can disagree without thinking the person I am disagreeing with is an asshole. I never meant to imply that flair4dagold was an asshole. However...you, Chin, are quite clearly an asshole.
"I
call you a troll because you purposely come here and take the opposing
opinion and then act like it's everyone else that's the asshole for
agreeing on a point after discussing it for 3 months.
You swoop in and start insulting the thoughts being shared here as
though this isn't stuff we've all been reasoning out for weeks and
weeks.
You're simply wrong. Brock going over leaves them several different
places to go that they can't go now. How much better is Lesnar/Ace than
Big Show/Ace as a team? How much better is Cena not sure if he can get
it done anymore because this monster is here now to "destroy his life".
How much better is Cena spending months doubting himself to allow for
some character twists?
All of those things are better, and that's only three examples of dozens that have been shared here.
I get it. You don't think the product will ever get better. You've
given up on it. And that's fine, but then why come to a wrestling blog
and complain about people that DO want it to be better?
That's trolling behavior."
Haha. I never thought about it but you're right. Brock Lesnar, a legit fighter, probably sits at home and lol's to himself thinking about guys like Hunter wanting "their win back" after all these years.
ReplyDeleteAll the while knowing his legacy in a real sport is cemented no matter who he lays down for in a choreographed dance.
So sign him to a one-PPV deal and see if that works out rather than blowing $5 million and then panicking because he might bail. Bring him in for Summerslam for [x] amount of dollars and see if the buyrates and ratings improve to any significant degree and whether he's willing to work within the system. If so, then work out a deal for WM. If not, then you've at least saved some money and avoided a possible disaster.
ReplyDeleteJust to add to my original thought, what's making it so hard for me to let go of the Brock thing is because Cena has taken his level of "comedy" and non-selling to a whole new level.
ReplyDeleteSome folks are saying that Brock winning wouldn't have changed anything and they may be right; but anything (ANYTHING) is better than what we've gotten from Cena since ER.
Again, being Cena is the new WWE champion. If Cena was doing his thing while featuring Punk-Bryan on top for the actual belt, then things would be more palatable. I guess the WWE brass is all in with Cena at this point and don't really believe or trust that anyone else on the roster can headline and draw.
You're right -- looks like they were doing between 4-5.5 million for a while. Count me pleasantly surprised.
ReplyDeleteSo you want it to get better but you don't want people to talk about ways they think it would be better.
ReplyDeleteGotcha.
No one ever suggested there was only one way to make the product better. In fact I provided three exampled (of dozens) in the post you quoted.
You've really done something special here.
If only there was an easy way to reply to people via Disqus...
And perhaps that's how Vince wants it. Interesting feuds with a purpose means people make a name for themselves and not for the WWE. And once guys becomes stars, Hollywood or MMA or any other "respectable" part of the entertainment industry comes calling and they jump ship, leaving the WWE and more importantly (at least in Vince's mind) poor ol' McMahon high and dry again.
ReplyDeleteI know he got burned by Lesnar and Lashey, but the people who do want to wrestle and are dedicated to the industry are getting the short end of the stick from WWE because of guys who weren't passionate about wrestling turned out to be, well, exactly that.
That wasn't directed at you in particular. My apologies because it really does look like it was.
ReplyDeleteI don't disagree with you, but Brock has always been murder to negotiate with it. He does seem to get what he wants. It is possible that he would not come in for anything less.
ReplyDeleteWow that's exactly how I feel. Honestly if the titles are truly meaningless there's almost no point to watching wwe because what exactly are they even fucking fighting over??? It's a fake sport, and at its best its more entertaining than most sports. But as a pure tv show without any of its fake sport premises its complete dogshit
ReplyDeleteMaybe because it's a reply to him? No shit?
ReplyDeleteReply button disappears after a certain number of responses. At least it does on my machine.
ReplyDeleteEvery one of your suggestions stems from the fact that Brock HAD to go over, that anything else was a disaster both for him and the company. That is my only disagreement.
People can talk about whatever they want, and I can agree or disagree. Just because there is a majority opinion does not make it correct.
And if Vince ever forgets about Lesnar or Lashley, I'm sure there are certain folks around who will remind him...especially when they can reap the benefits.
ReplyDeleteNo hard feelings.
ReplyDeleteUgh, stop justifying your troll comments
ReplyDeleteSome of the young talent you mentioned Shelton, Carlito, Masters specificially did not have all the tools to make main event runs though. They either lacked enough promo skills like Shelton or they didn't produce in the ring like Masters. ZIggler does seem poised for a main event run, but they seem hesitant to pull the trigger.
ReplyDeleteDid you see how I apologized?
ReplyDeleteI guess we shouldn't be surprised that Vince in his old age would allow a talent to one up him so badly in contract negotiations. This deal is an all around win for Lesnar. Vince gets so little in return.
ReplyDeletePretty much agree. Brock should have went over, but it's hardly the end of the world like some of the people here make it out to be.
ReplyDeleteThe WWE now submits to the logical fallacy "since wrestling is 'scripted,' the titles aren't 'real titles,' ergo they are meaningless, ergo we can treat them as such." What this ignores is that even the fictioniest of fiction doesn't thrive unless the reader/viewer/listener has SOMETHING that becomes the identification point.
ReplyDeleteI'll give you a TV drama e.g.: Dallas. Early seasons, watching JR fight everyone to get control of Ewing Oil....it meant something because within the story's universe, it seemed like a big deal. His getting shot....it meant something because within the story's universe, it seemed like a big deal.
Years later, Ewing Oil had changed ownership a bazillion times and JR kept getting shot and it just didn't seem like a big deal anymore. The writers had treated this storyline devices as things you could drop in countless times because "Hey! There's no REAL Ewing Oil and Larry Hagman isn't REALLY getting shot! What's the big deal?" But the big deal was/is "there's no reason to watch this show anymore because why invest in any characters when you'll drive any and all development into the ground by hotshotting?"
So, long story short, the erosion of kayfabe is no excuse for making terrible use of your titles.
No one ever suggested it was the end of the world. Just that it was the end of their opportunity to so something *actually* special with Brock Lesnar.
ReplyDeleteNow he's just some dude that's going to job alot. Hurray!
Yeah, if that IS the reason for the stagnation and homogenization of the product then it is pretty ridiculous reasoning. Guys like Punk, Bryan, Ziggler, etc. have been wrestling fans their whole lives and are as committed as anyone has ever been. When the time comes, these are the guys that will put over the next generation properly and will know when to call it quits. Jericho is a similar case; he comes back every once in awhile to put people over, but for the most part he gets that his time on top is over and he can contribute in other ways. Sadly, guys like him are never the chief benefactors of Vince's benevolence.
ReplyDeleteGood points by both of you. I think the problem is at some point Vince decided that this wasn't a fake sport anymore and it was a TV show like 24 or Lost or whatever goes through that man's mind when he's not thinking of 3-foot dick's. However, the entire premise of deciding the outcome of storylines in a WRESTLING RING kinda negates Vince's shift.
ReplyDeleteI don't know about anyone else but wwe jumped the shark for me when they had a three way fued for the smackdown title between cena big show and edge at wrestlemania that centered on who would get to date vicky guerro. This fued was embarassing and insulting and even had cena trying to woo vickie with some grade d acting. It was at this point (I think it was wm25) that I realized this shit was terrible. I stopped watching period (although I still read scotts blogs and the recaps and kept ordering wrestlemania and hardy vs punk ppvs and youtubed the punk sxs stuff) until the summer of punk stuff, and even bought front row tickets to summerslam. After seeing lesnar get jobbed and viewing the crap that was raw I am tempted to say fuck it, but I guess what's the harm in dvring
ReplyDeleteI laid out why in old posts awhile ago so I'm not gonna repeat myself, but I will say that Lesnar losing to Cena doesn't hurt his drawing power at all. Now if he loses to HHH...
ReplyDeleteVince McMahon and a service that doesn't have a Dislike button?
ReplyDeleteMatch made in heaven really.
I kind of agree. Him tied up for months in an aimless "law suit" storyline probably hurts him more. Of course, it could be that the fan base has long since given up on the TV show and doesn't care - and Lesnar will draw even if they stick him in a wig. Lesnar/Cena went off the rails leading up to the match and it was still a big hit. Could be RAW is just an obsolete format.
ReplyDeleteIt's been said many times that vince has these insecurities about being a wrestling promotor. Thus the "did you knows" and the superstars/sports entertainment branding. The problem is that shit is a million times more embarassing/looked down on then wrestling.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a closet wrestling fan and usually don't care if people think I'm stupid for watching wrestling but a few months ago my gf and some other friends stopped by when I was watching raw and it was the goddamn zac ryder changing a tire segement with lane stalking him and I was so embarassed to be watching that crap in front of non wrestling fans (on my own tv in my own home) I had to change the channel in shame.
The wwe can be so awesome at booking a wrestling show but holy fuck they are the worst at doing there stupid "entertainment show"
Excellent post, and spot on with the Dallas comparison. "Who Shot JR?" worked because there were actual stakes involved and a sense that the entire canvas was about to change. What if JR dies? Who will run Ewing Oil? And what if Bobby or Jock or Sue Ellen was the one to pull the trigger? What happens to the Ewing family then? And so on. But after a while you knew that JR wasn't going to die no matter how many times he got shot and that whoever shot him wasn't going to jail anyhow and that Ewing Oil was basically a hot potato which could be bought and sold on a whim. Thus the emotional impact of those devices diminished, and the drama (and ratings) suffered as a result. Which of course leads to more desperation stunts like dream seasons and Moldavian death squads (or the thousandth Big Show heel turn).
ReplyDeleteThat's my thing, I've come to grips that they won't change anything about Cena's character. I happen to think there's a whole lot more available to them storyline wise if they do, but fine, if they think it would risk things too much, that's their decision. But if you have to shoehorn any storyline idea to fit Cena's character, it just makes for very boring tv at the top. Why not put Cena and his feuds in the top of the mid-card? The kids that came to the even to see Cena, I doubt they really care where he's placed on the show. You probably could have Cena squash a random jobber in 5 minutes every show and the kids would be happy, still want to buy his merchandise, Cena can still do all his charity work, literally nothing changes except now you can feature other players and give them a real chance. The chances of them actually doing this? 0% which is why instead of sitting down and watching an entire show, I pick and choose. Just my two cents.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that he hasn't raised the rest of the roster in order to do that, he's simply just lowered Brock. So who cares now?
ReplyDeleteHonestly Brock "quitting" and the lawsuit thing is probably the best way to explain why he isn't there every week. His contract really limits what they can do with him.
ReplyDeletePunk and Bryan didn't have so much as a promo to set up their feud.
ReplyDeleteI'll repeat that in case it hasn't sunk in.
CM PUNK and DANIEL BRYAN were not given A SINGLE PROMO to set up their WWE TITLE feud.
a few months ago my gf and some other friends stopped by when I was
ReplyDeletewatching raw and it was the goddamn zac ryder changing a tire segement
with lane stalking him and I was so embarassed to be watching that crap
in front of non wrestling fans (on my own tv in my own home) I had to
change the channel in shame.
LOL!!
Spot on analogy. Good post!
ReplyDeleteIt's funny that Scott used Randy Orton as an example. Two of my favorite wrestlers in WWE right now, Randy Orton and Cody Rhodes are suffering from exactly what Scott talked about. What has Randy Orton really been doing since he ended his feud with Wade Barrett? He returned at the Rumble, and feuded with Kane. But why? Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed his matches with Kane they were good. But why were they fighting, what did either accomplish? Cody Rhodes has been meandering for a while too, but at least his feud with Big Show had SOME purpose though neither really came out the better for it.
ReplyDeleteI actually haven't been watching since WrestleMania, mainly because Orton hasn't been doing anything of substance, Cody has done nothing of substance, Ziggler has done nothing. As a fan of those guys, it makes it hard to watch when none of them are doing anything compelling. Some people are involved in some interesting things though, Punk has been consistently interesting since last July, Daniel Bryan has been interesting since turning heel, Jericho has been doing some great stuff, but for the most part, the guys are just floating along.
I don't want to come off as being an anti-WWE guy, because it's my favorite Wrestling company, but it's just like with sports. When your favorite football teams isn't doing good, usually you won't be as interested in the season or playoffs. Same thing goes for wrestling. When your favorite wrestlers aren't doing anything compelling it makes it hard to want to watch.
Though I will say, while the tv shows and storylines have been somewhat lacking, the PPV's have been good so far. I bought Elimination Chamber, WrestleMania, and Extreme Rules and they were all worth the pricetag.
I say this in every single 'WWE is stale' post, but the company desperately needs a rival with a lot of money. WWF became fresh in the 90s because all of the old stars were stolen and they had to try something new to keep up. Now they can keep their top stars for 10+ years with no downsides and as a result we get the same old feuds at the top over and over again and a revolving door of midcarders that don't matter because they'll either be gone in 3 years or stuck in a never ending storyline with Dolph Ziggler.
ReplyDeleteYea, but isn't that a problem best solved either by: a) not signing the contract; or b) actually developing a decent storyline that has some emotional gravitas to it? I mean, why not have Brock get fired after he stars destroying the hell out of people, including HHH. Then, some months from now, after being hyped to hell, Evil Guy A brings Lesnar back in an assassin role, but can't control him. Then Lesnar breaks Batman's back and AJ Quinn falls in love with him, BUT! (to quote Scott Steiner) Lesnar does not, in fact, dig crazy chicks. Cena says "poopy," and angel loses its wings and Chris Jericho starts a feud with Hornswoggle by hitting two Codebreakers on him and claiming to be the best.
ReplyDeleteMemes!
Really? That's just sad.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your statement about it being the "Cena Show"
ReplyDeleteI've been watching old Raws from 1997 and one big difference is that there is no one focus where you can say it's the "Bret Hart show" or the "Stone Cold Show" or the "Undertaker show" each of these guys have something meaningful to do. Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, The Hart Foundation, Stone Cold, Undertaker, Sid, Mankind, ALL had meaningful things going on, and it never felt as though one dominated the programing. In fact, often times there wasn't enough airtime to go around. If ever Raw NEEDED to be 3 hours, it was in 1997-1998 or in 2000.
Boy, this sounds A LOT like WCW from 1996 until the end. We even have Goldberg in Ryback!
ReplyDeleteThat is well and good but Lesnar's dates are REALLY limited. The only have him for 7 more ppvs and a handful of Raw appearances that I'm sure they would rather use for the WM buildup than in May.
ReplyDeleteIf next March, he has beaten HHH and a couple other guys and they got a kickass program that they can ramp up for him at WM, nobody will remember or care about his Cena loss.
The only way things are going to change is if people stop watching.
ReplyDeleteThey have literally no incentive to freshen anything up because they're the only game in town. That's why monopolies are bad.
Even in sports, the NFL has to put on a good product because they're competing with other sports.
Wrestling fans have no alternative. And I mean the casual wrestling fan - the one that makes up 80% of the WWE audience...not the hardcore fan that watches RoH or even TNA.
Until there's a competitor or fans really start tuning out....nothing is going to change because nothing has to change.
And it's depressing as hell for a wrestling fan.
^ This. Last night was the first episode of Raw I intentionally skipped in a very very long time. I've pretty much given up on the product not sucking ass for the foreseeable future, now I just need to figure out how to spend my additional 4 hours of free time every week.
ReplyDeleteSince there is alot of talk about Lesnar, Cena, and the direction of the WWE, this is what I would do to fix it.
ReplyDelete-Brock goes over HHH at No Way Out.
-Brock wins the title from Punk at Summerslam.
-Brock defends against Orton, rematch with Punk, whatever at Survivor Series. Retains.
-Brock defeats Undertaker at Royal Rumble. After the match, Brock is laying a serious beating on the Undertaker. Cena comes out and saves him.
-The Rock enters at number 30 and wins. Announces he will challenge for the WWE title, fulfilling his promise he made the night after WM 28.
-John Cena announces that he will enter the Elimination Chamber match so he can avenge his loss to Rock. Brock retains at the ppv, last eliminating Cena.
-The Rock vs Lesnar is set. The Undertaker challenges Cena at WrestleMania because Cena got involved at the Rumble and dared to think he needed his help. Also set up Punk vs Austin.
-WM29 Triple Main Event: Rock over Lesnar for the title. Undertaker over Cena. Punk over Austin.
-Extreme Rules: Cena defeats The Rock for the title.
At this point, hit a complete reset on the WWE. Undertaker, Rock, Austin, and Lesnar never wrestle again. No more relying on past stars, no more special attractions with one exemption. Find out who your next star is going to be, whether it's Punk, Ambrose, someone we've never seen before, whoever and put him over Cena for the title at Summerslam.
Make John Cena your special attraction, the lone exemption. You only bring him out for the big PPVs and big angles. Basically an ambassador for the WWE, still doing the Make a Wish stuff, the media, etc while you focus on a new set of stars.
I think "jumped the shark" works here - it's really just another television show now, featuring the wacky adventures of John Cena. Everyone else are just supporting/background characters - some weeks they're featured more prominently than others, but it's always the John Cena show. It's just another television show that's in that phase where they're just writing week to week to get through it because people are watching it even if it's not going anywhere. Maybe it'll eventually start to bottom out and they'll put an effort into being interesting and creative again, but for now it's Two and 1/2 Men - they're just putting stuff out there for as long as people are willing to watch it.
ReplyDeletei totally agree with the hive mind metality bit, but Brock going over opened the door for many more possibilities for the overall story than coming in and losing. Why pay for a rematch? It was clear as crystal that he lost in his first match back? Drawing power reduced.
ReplyDeleteI dont care about dates cuz he could clearly have been built through Heyman or Ace or whomever during his absences.
Who wants to hire a merc that doesnt carry out his hits? He injured Cena for 25 minutes and had a lasting effect of 2 weeks, Brock Lesnar is an afterthought now. Programming him with HHH means nothing cuz in the gran scheme of things, once Brock leaves whether he goies over or jobs, HHH will make sure that HHH comes out relatively unscathed.
Not to mention why the fuck do i wanna see two part timers go at it?
Again... we got 25 guys primed for the main event/upper mid card and the show revolves around 6 guys and Im being generous.
Speaking of HHH, do people really expect him to job to Lesnar? If they really did bring Lesnar back to put over their top stars, then HHH would be next on the list, followed by Undertaker and possibly Rock. If not, then wouldn't the same concerns they had about Lesnar leading up to the Cena feud still apply? After all, what happens if HHH puts him over and then he bails? Wasn't that the rationale about Cena going over? Plus, the way the angle has been set up, HHH is basically representing not just himself but the entire WWE organization. Vince lost the feud when it played out in real-life, so do we really think he'll pass up the opportunity to book himself (by proxy) as the victor this time around?
ReplyDeleteSeriously dude, don't worry about it. Generally the ones calling people trolls are the biggest trolls around here.
ReplyDeleteJesus, what's with you people calling anyone with a dissenting opinion a troll?
ReplyDelete"HHH will make sure that HHH comes out relatively unscathed."
ReplyDeleteTHIS times a billion.
I miss the territory system. That way when someone was overexposed you shipped them off to another part of the country.
ReplyDeleteJohn Cena is so popular that he should be seen LESS on TV and built up as a feature attraction. Not to the extent of the Undertaker, but a lesser schedule nontheless.
It depends on if he decides its "good for business" really. If he thinks someone else can make more money against Brock than himself I think he'll take the loss. For all his reported ego problems he seems to put the welfare of the company ahead of himself. Problem is there are maybe 3 people who could make more money than him - Rock, Taker and Cena. One has already happened and the other two are Wrestlemania exclusive.
ReplyDeleteI always find it odd that wrestling people would want to liken wrestling with soap operas, which are a) some of the most annoying TV around with bad acting and the lamest plot twists and b) dying due to a total loss of viewership from the audience.
ReplyDeletePretty much. The problem here is that only Vince McMahon thinks people don't watch wrestling for uh...wrestling.
ReplyDeleteAssuming this match actually does com off, I do. Either to job or to get destroyed and have the match stopped by the referee. (Maybe that is more likely, actually.)
ReplyDeleteIf Lesnar was going up against Orton I would be worried that they were going to job him again. But losing to HHH has no upside for the company.
I am still not 100% convinced this is the match they are going to do. Time will tell.
I would've changed the channel IMMEDIATELY upon their arrival in my home. Hell, I change the channel in embarrassment when wrestling is on if I hear any kind of rustling outside.
ReplyDeleteWell, when soaps had top-notch writers and regularly employed actors from the Broadway stage, they were immensely popular. When they started hiring hacks, Playboy centerfolds and male models, they declined accordingly.
ReplyDeleteWhen a soap opera is well-written and produced (early Dallas, for example), it can be compelling and entertaining. If WWE wants to be compared to that genre, that's the example they should follow. Instead, they're committed to the current losing model.
Im tired of this wait and see shit. Its a running joke. Ive said a while ago that a lot of yall are like battered wives when it comes to the wwe cuz like abused wives yall just hope and pray it gets better and keep accepting the shit wwe feeds you. Ive been burned too many times with them and they dont get my money anymore. Now its coming to the point where i dont even wanna watch free tv cuz they dont wanna utilize the talent they have. Punk/Bryan playing second fiddle to anybody insults me as a fan. Dolph Ziggler consistently being the premier selling machine and worker/performer on tv for the past 2 years tradmilling is insulting.
ReplyDelete/soapbox
I think the biggest mistake they made was pairing him up with Cena to start his run. I don't agree with Scott's idea that Brock should have been fed the entire roster between now and Wrestlemania, but he could have gone over an Orton or a Jericho before losing to Cena.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I definitely wasn't referring to stuff like Dallas or stuff like Dark Shadows. I'm talking about the daytime ones that have aired over the last fifteen years or so where someone always has amnesia or has been switched at birth and where the actors can only cry with the use of saline drops.
ReplyDeleteIt's crazy that there used to be something like 15 or 20 of them airing in a given season, but now they are just down to one juggernaut and I guess in a way, that is sort of the same thing that has happened in wrestling.
One of the reasons I hate Cena so much is that he's a smart guy who has a good knowledge of the business and the industry and he seemingly does NOTHING in regards to creative input. Steve Austin would have seen the Kane and Big Show angles coming and put the kibosh on them right away. Cena, with his tenure, could easily speak his mind as well but he's a company guy who does whatever they tell him.
ReplyDeleteI know that all big stars have had feuds/programs that sucked. Bret Hart spent much of '95 wrestling an evil dentist and an evil pirate. The Rock feuded with Billy Gunn culminating in a Kiss-My-Ass match. Kurt Angle had an ebony obsession with Booker T's wife. And Shawn Michaels had a weird feud with JBL that was inspired by The Wrestler. But at the time, NEITHER of them were focal point of the company.
But Cena continues his main event run no matter what he does, to the point that I don't even think a heel turn could save him. Now I just want him to go away.
I have only one word to say renegading your analogy
ReplyDeleteHey Saved by the Bell was serious stuff. I'm so excited!!! I'm so excited!!! I'm so....SCARED!!!!
ReplyDeleteI agree with that last statement, the last 2 months or so have been so unbearable when it comes to Cena, that anytime he's on TV I just change the channel.
ReplyDeleteThey should do an angle where the Raw Superstars are going to a party and Johnny won't let Cena go. So he has to sneak in somehow without Johnny catching him. An angle like that could carry them all summer.
ReplyDeleteMan, those caffeine pills really messed up Jessie Spano's life. I mean, after graduation she became a slutty Vegas Showgirl. 8 )
ReplyDeleteI really like the complete reset thing you mentioned. Add HHH to that list of guys who never wrestle again.
ReplyDeleteSsssshhhhhhh, your making too much sense.
ReplyDeleteYeah. Burn Notice is freaking awesome. The very idea that I have 5 seasons worth of Sam Axe (and more to come!) gets me more giddy than I am comfortable admitting.
ReplyDeleteGood thing Monday Night Football is around the corner.
ReplyDeleteI could dig this, but I'm not sure if you could do all of it with Brock's required dates. Of course, I suppose you could just make him PPV-exclusive and air taped promos, which is fine with me.
ReplyDeleteDeath to the SATS!!!
ReplyDeleteAlot of Dallas references today...
ReplyDeleteThere should be a troll character in wrestling. Just someone who goes around annoying people and stirring shit up backstage.
ReplyDeleteKind of like Just Joe way back when.
That wasnt a mistake IMO. The story was right there, even before Brock. The fans overwhelming response to Cena should of led to a Cena heel turn. Rock being the part timer comes in a goes over, thus leading to Cena snapping and going heel.
ReplyDeleteThey balked.
Okay, they still could of fostered some doubt that Cena couldnt get the job done and here comes Brock. He beats Cena and sends him to do some soul searching.
They balked again.
They are determined for us to accept John Cena as is. A Big Poochie type character that preaches Hustle Loyalty and Respect, can cater to the kids, and be a hearthtrob for the women. Problem is he is rejected by basicall 75% of the grown men in the audience cuz he is a phony. No one can relate to him cuz he overcomes all obstacles, gets the better of everyone and nigh impervious to all attacks foreign and domestic. I like John Cena btw, but his character is what drives me nuts. He is supposed to be the all encompassing good guy superhero when people see through the bs. Hes a clavin klein model playing a badass. He doesnt have a bad bone in his body. and all the while they have this indy runt who is believeable and just playing n the overall saga of suck.
do we still get to see patrick duffy in the shower??
ReplyDelete99% brilliance!!! FTW!! There's only one detail keeping it from perfection. Cena's character is too stale, and we all know it. He needs growth and development. Maybe... now try to keep an open mind here... maybe instead of Cena saying, "Poopy," he says Peepee. What do you think? I really think the character can evolve and move on to urine.
ReplyDeleteI get your point to some degree, but was he putting the welfare of the company first when he deflated the Punk angle, beat him, and then turned it into a feud with Nash? How about when he squashed Jericho at every single turn of his career (except when he had to back off because his buddy Shawn liked working with Chris)?
ReplyDeleteI could definitely see HHH changing his mind at the last minute and trying to convince Stephanie and Vince that HHH going over or having a DQ is "right for the business."
Someone posted this several days ago, and I wish I could remember who, but I'll try to paraphrase here: I like him just as much as I hate him.
Well, Punk's frustration is understandable. He has whiplash from going up and now the card so quickly and frequently. I highly doubt either him or Bryan will go anywhere too soon if they are getting interesting stuff to do. They are both passionate about wrestling and Bryan - in particular - seems to be loving his fan response as of late.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention, how many years do we need out of them. Realistically speaking, no one has more than 2-3 on top nowadays before they get extremely stale. If they each had a 3 year run, then a slow move down the card to put the next generation over, then a retirement angle, they could be out of the spotlight by 40 with a new generation to carry the torch. That sounds much better to me than another decade of Cena killing the profession - the character, not the person.
Hhh is going over lesnar strong, any other storyline or worker be damned.
ReplyDeleteBrock has 7 ppvs left on his deal, so I made sure not to go over. WM29 would be his 7th ppv and last appearance.
ReplyDeleteI'd say the "Cena is the star" thing is another by-product of having only TV writers on the creative staff and adopting an all-out entertainment mentality to pro wrestling. In TV, most shows have their clearly delineated star, and then the supporting cast, and that never changes throughout the show's entire run.
ReplyDeleteFor instance, take a show like Dexter. The star is, obviously, Dexter. If Michael C. Hall decided he didn't want to do it anymore, the show goes off the air. The writers of that show can just keep LaGuerta, Quinn, Masuka and the rest of the supporting cast in their minor roles for the entire run since they don't have to worry about "well, let's keep Masuka strong in case we feel like his character is ready to carry and an entire season down the road."
I feel like this attitude has been completely adopted by WWE. Cena is the star, with HHH/Rock/Lesnar/Undertaker as "former stars" who make important cameos, and then you have Orton/Punk/Sheamus a level below that, Big Show/Kane/Mysterio (if he returns) as vets who are kept just a thin level below that, and pretty much the entire midcard is on the same level. Someone like Ziggler might never get the true main event push since, in the minds of the writers, he's just a midcard guy. It's like how Masuka might have a big role in one particular episode of Dexter but after that he's right back to his usual stuff.
Hey dont start talking about euphoria, Roger from American Dad takes that.
ReplyDeleteLike Calculon from "All my circuits"
ReplyDeleteI have...AMNESIA!!!
The reasons I didn't include HHH on that list is 1. Realistically, that is never gonna happen, and I actually don't mind if he popped up every once in a while as the authority figure. And 2. He isn't and will never be as big as a star as any of those guys I listed. So he doesn't count.
ReplyDeleteYeah, just like how Austin slid down the card putting everyone over. Punk is in it to win it. If he isn't on top, I doubt he'll stay around.
ReplyDeleteI know, what the hell is doing?
ReplyDeleteThe best thing that could have happened for him was an injury after his match with Brock because it would have forced him off tv for a while. And it would have forced a new face on the tippy-top of the card.
ReplyDeleteWell, I guess we can agree to disagree on that one. Punk has already been shunted down the card multiple times and is still here. I think he gets it. He got it in ROH when he left and he will get it here, too. At any rate, I trust him alot more than the Taker/HHH/HBK generation who decided that the wrestling ring should be their porn studio while they made their dream sex tape together.
ReplyDeleteI've heard the "battered wives" analogy for wrestling fans before, but you explained it so eloquently:
ReplyDeleteWe're not battered wives because we keep going back to a product that sucks, we're battered wives because we keep going back to a product that sucks but constantly SWEARS that it will improve.
People have been tuning out on TV and on PPV for years, yet it doesn't seem to stop them. I don't know what level is needs to get to to get them to stop making excuses and realize that they have to change, but I hope they get there soon because I agree with your point that the only way to force change would be if the viewership numbers tank.
ReplyDeleteCaptain Wacky, later renamed "John Cena"...
ReplyDelete"The Undertaker challenges Cena at WrestleMania because Cena got involved at the Rumble and dared to think he needed his help."
ReplyDeleteI actually really like that idea - Taker has basically been playing a curmudgeonly ol' grizzled vet the last few years, and allows Cena to not seem "disrespectful" for being the one to lay down the challenge.
Much like snarky fans have taken the "Yes!" chant and used it for other purposes (such as chanting "Si!" for Del Rio), I could easily see the somewhat derogatory "Goldberg" chants that Ryback is currently getting turning into "Ryyyyback" chants.
ReplyDeleteWhatever gets them there. I really really want to see them face off at WrestleMania. The drama would be off the charts for the false finishes as everyone holds their breath, hoping they don't put Cena over.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the WWE without Cena would be as directionless and disappointing as The Office has been without Steve Carrell.
ReplyDeleteGotta disagree about Raw not being "The Steve Austin Show" for a while - yes, there were other compelling acts, but Austin was front and center, with every show, PPV, and the entire company revolving around him.
ReplyDeleteThe difference, of course, was that the writing was good and other guys weren't neutered simply due to the ridiculous belief that only the top star is allowed to look even the least bit good.
This has been bugging me a ton too. Winning or losing has no meaning in terms of moving up the competitive ladder and earning a championship match the way it does in boxing or MMA. Bryan loses the title and feud to Sheamus, but then is immediately the #1 challenger to Punk's belt? Jericho beats nobody but Kofi Kingston and becomes the #1 contender to Punk's belt, then gets into a title match against Sheamus?
ReplyDeleteAnd the first Raw every month after the PPV: #1 contender's gimmick match! It's a battle royal! It's four corners! It's a king of the hill match! The WWE, fictionally a competition enterprise, has no idea who should be competing for the title, so here you go!
Not to mention the absurdity of two guys walking around with "best in the world" titles. I don't mind the WWE having two world titles, I mind the two world champions not seeming to care about each other. They should be gunning for each other.
I agree on the TV writers. Someone, maybe Scott, a few months ago said that "RAW is a show about a character named John Cena overcoming the odds."
ReplyDeleteThere's no reason that Brock quitting has to go hand-in-hand with a storyline about contracts, though.
ReplyDeleteBrock could have quit, and the rest of the company could have just said "good, we didn't want you around, anyway". THEN, when Brock DID reappear, it would have been a nice surprise, instead of the obvious pay-off to a long, boring storyline. Maybe I'm alone in this, but, to me, this feels like when you just KNOW a tag-team is going to break up, but the company waits too long to pull the trigger, resulting in less heat for the program. Same here: I feel like much of the audience is waiting for Brock to return, not out of anticipation, but just so that we can finally get to the next bullet-point in the story.
Gotta agree on Punk - he's obviously a big wrestling fan, just like all of us (well, more so, obviously, but you know what I mean), but it's rare to find somebody that doesn't mind getting demoted. He may not be at Cena's level, but he's pretty much the #2 face in the company, has been champ for what is basically an eternity nowadays, and (I can only assume) is making a ton of money.
ReplyDeleteIf and when that all comes to and end, though, I have no doubt that he'll leave. Can't begrudge him for that, like I said, nobody likes getting demoted, but I think it's unrealistic to say that he'll stick around just to be a mid-carder that puts over the next generation.
Guys like Jericho are extremely rare, both in the wrestling business, and in life.
I was about to post the exact same thing.
ReplyDeleteTHiS. I forget which wrestling book talked about one of the writers in the limo with Vince and how he screamed at Linda about an ancetdote but this is the sad commentary about WWE and work in general (in America at least). If u speak ur mind ur fired no matter how helpful it may be. I'd love to see one of the "yes men" tell Vince he's a moron but their idea could make money. If he gets fired, write a book; if they accept his idea he is the savior. IMHO it's easy. Use rankings like they do in Raw 2012 (albeit correctly with continuity as opposed to TNA) and go with that angles with personal storylines in between.
ReplyDeleteThe Torch guys' habits of hyperbole - among so many other things - are why I don't visit that site anymore. I wouldn't put too much stock into it. Like Chin said, things might get lean but the company's not going anywhere.
ReplyDeleteWell, it is coming back, however ill-advised that might be.
ReplyDeleteAnother knee surgery, perhaps?
ReplyDeleteHe could be the sole cause of every feud in the WWE, and it would still be so much better than how feuds are set up now.
ReplyDeleteBMN You get a like because I misread that last line as "the erosion of kayfabe is no excuse for making terrible use of your titties."
ReplyDeleteThe WWE Championship is the new IC Championship
ReplyDeleteBeing John Cena is the new World Championship
Being The Rock is the new WWE Championship
Being The Brock is the new REAL World Heavyweight Championship
The thing with the whole sitcom writers writing the how is, shows adapt. For instance, with How I Met Your Mother, Ted is the main character narrating the show, but early on, the writers realized that Ted is probably the least likable of the main cast, and started focusing on everyone else as a result.
ReplyDeleteEven with Lost, Michael Emerson's character was only supposed to have a couple of episodes and then be killed off. Instead, he remained on the show for the rest of the series.
WWE doesn't have to be all about John Cena. He's not universally liked by the "WWE Universe" like CM Punk is, but they still remain adamant in pushing him as the star attraction. For crying out loud, a guy like Brock Lesnar, who abandoned the company and badmouthed that same company for years after he left, came back to a hero's welcome, and got cheered when he attacked the guy the company was focused around.
Compare that to when Chris Benoit came back a year after his neck injury to a hero's welcome, attacked Steve Austin (in a great sense of continuity I might add, as he was the last guy Benoit feuded with), and was promptly booed.
I'll add Twin Peaks to the awesome soaps list.
ReplyDeleteI can't wait for exodus316 and buckdiddy's asinine replies.
ReplyDeleteIf you look at the CM Punk/Daniel Bryan feud, and the first thought that pops into your head is "Needs more Kane", then WWE Creative would like a word with you at your earliest convenience.
ReplyDeleteI like the way Scott put it that Jericho and Orton are feuding just because it's that time. Orton has been spinning his wheels for a good while now hasn't he? I briefly remember something involving Christian and Wade Barrett and since then it's been random feuds with Kane and Jericho.
ReplyDeleteI agree that WWE does a lot of dartboard booking, but I wouldn't lump Orton/Jericho in with that. Jericho has a pretty good reason to attack Orton because of the punt kick that sent him out. Although I doubt they even acknowledge it.
ReplyDeleteThey already have acknowledged it.
ReplyDeleteCM Punk-John Cena.
ReplyDelete"This needs Kevin Nash. And a MYSTERY!"
That's a good point, and one I need to reconsider...
ReplyDeleteThere is also the fact that it was the "Steve Austin" show for 2 years (98-99), with guys like Foley and Rock also getting elevated in the process (in fact, late 99 was more about HHH's rise than anything). The problem here is that this has been going on for 7 years. It is just so, so stale. And they are going to kill off a generation of performers for no good reason. Man, I feel so bad for Ziggler. The guy has been just begging for a serious main event push for 3 bloody years!
ReplyDeleteAnd Alberto Del Rio.
ReplyDeleteThe WWE is competing with everything else on TV. A fraction of the people watch wrestling today than did over 10 years ago. The WWE's current state is due to other forms of entertainment out competing them for those viewers.
ReplyDeleteLet's be fair to Austin, he didn't exactly go out on the terms he wanted to. Austin never made anyone because he never got a chance to. He probably would've put over Lesnar if it had been a PPV main event.
ReplyDeletethis is all making me very sad.
ReplyDeletealthough the comparism is not really accurate. the problem is that John Cena might not be "universally liked" but still pulls in the most viewers. I mean, afaik a lot of people change the channel when CM Punk is on. so unfornately it seems natural for them to not making him the focus of their show.
ReplyDeleteI am pretty sure that today's WWE is NOTHING like the WWE/WWF fifteen years ago. and I am not sure (with all "writing" instead of "booking" etc.) it is possible to veto like you could do back then.
ReplyDeleteTwin Peaks was so awesome it easily transcended the usual soap opera genre.
ReplyDeleteand the best thing: when megastar John Cena returns, you can easily put him against the new guy in a big ppv main event.
ReplyDeleteShould've, could've, would've. The fact is? He didn't.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Punk is a selfish person, of that he's afraid of losing his credibility or anything like that. But I think Punk thinks he's the most talented wrestler in the world. And that once he becomes completely and totally the man, there isn't anything left for him in wrestling. Once you reach the pinnacle of the sport? What's left?
And that's why managers are so badly needed in this business. If Shelton had a manager like a Captain Lou, Bobby Heenan or Jimmy Hart he could've been a huge star. The fact is WWE seems content to stay with the status quo (Cena/Orton) on top and just cycle the mid card around. Unless either Cena or Orton get a career ending injury it'll stay that way for another decade.
ReplyDeleteCan I be Ian Mooney! Or maybe Jamison?
ReplyDeleteThis makes me wonder, how close to bankrupt was the WWF back in 95-97? They claimed not to have the money to pay Bret, was this just bs? Always wondered how bad off they really were.
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised Vince hasn't started pumping those chants through the speakers of our TV. How hard would it be to hire a bunch of people to chant "Ryyyyybackkk" and play it when it wrestles. Not to give VInny any more ideas.
ReplyDeleteThey're not just competing with other shows, but torrents/usenet/file sharing as well. If people know it's not must see TV they can wait till the next day and just download the show and watch it later, further eroding the ratings. If the shows suddenly picked up and become unmissable then people would watch it live. Much like during the Attitude era, it was must see TV and watching it on tape later was not the same. Now you can just download the week of shows (6 hours) and watch them in an afternoon in about 2 hours.
ReplyDelete