I've been rewatching Raws from 1997 on. Well I'm in Arpil of 1999. The pilot episode of Smackdown. I know their plans fell apart as they had someone else in mind to be the "higher power" but it fell through so they went with Vince. My question is: Why didn't they just go with Shane McMahon as the higher power? It made a whole lot more sense than Vince did. Shane had motive, he had means, and he had opportunity. His rise to power coincided with Undertaker's continued attacks on the McMahon family, yet Shane went practically untested. With Vince tied up with Taker, Shane gained nearly full power, slapped his father and pretty much bitched him out. Even on the pilot episode of Smackdown, Shane comes out and unites with the Undertaker, thus forming the "Corporate Ministry" Wouldn't that have been the perfect time to unveil Shane as the "Higher Power" I actually liked the whole Ministry angle and Undertaker's attempts to take over the WWF, but it all jumped the shark with the illogical reveal of Vince as the Higher Power.
So to end this unexpectedly long post, my question is: Why not have Shane be the higher power instead of Vince?
Well, Meltzer has said recently that there was no other plan, it was always Vince as the Higher Power.
But I mean really, Shane was already in charge of the operation, so revealing him as the mastermind would have been pretty disappointing from a SWERVE standpoint. And don't even get me started on how stupid the CORPORATE MINISTRY idea was. "First I'm going to literally attempt to murder you on the biggest PPV of the year, then reveal we've been working together all along." Boy, an attempted hanging really throws people off the scent, doesn't it?
At the time that it was happening, I thought the Corporate Ministry was a cool thing and I definitely bought them as a monster heel stable. With hindsight, probably not so cool. A bunch of satanists and a group of corporate cronies does not equal a stable to me.
ReplyDeleteHave to ask what's wrong with keeping the Corporation and the Ministry separate instead of going with a convoluted effort to bring them together? Only reason I can think of is because they want to avoid a heel/heel match up (ie. Taker defending the title against Triple H on a PPV)
I remember being really into the Ministry gimmick and then once they slammed them together with the Corporation I completely just gave up on it. What a stupid idea. The only good thing to come of it was the mash-up of that awesome metal version of Undertaker's theme and "No Chance in Hell". But it really wasn't worth having the most non-sensical stable in wrestling history. I don't really remember where that all went, even. The clearest thing I can recall from their joining together was Mideon taking the European title from Shane's gym bag.
ReplyDeleteRandom question: in 04 when JBL was feuding with Undertaker and he brought back Gangrel and Viscera to attack Undertaker, did they ever actually mention that Bradshaw himself was once one of Taker's disciples? Seems kind of obvious when you have him bringing out former Ministry guys and he's just standing there himself as one of them. Something similar should also have been mentioned when Edge & Taker were feuding a few years ago.
I will attest that the WWF has fucked up every stable or faction ever.
ReplyDeleteMerging the Corporation (which was on its last legs with Rocky going full face and HHH in "weird mode") with the Ministry (which never caught any real traction) was the dumbest move ever. They could have judge dissolved the Corporation and just moved into the Ministry angle.. but noooo...
Although in the beginning of the Ministry angle, i said to myself "Man if the brood join, that would be the coolest thing ever," And they did. I felt like a booker.
It's a testament to how hot Austin & Rocky were that the awful Corporate Ministry was the main event angle and they couldn't help but making money hand over fist.
ReplyDeleteI have always found it interesting that the ratings were better in 1999 than 2000, but the buyrates in 2000 were far superior.
http://goo.gl/NboRw
ReplyDeleteI remember a HUGE rumor that Jake Roberts was going to be the Higher Power. Me and my circle of wrestling dorks were supremely pissed when it was Vince. Evil Jake teamed with SatanicTaker would have been awesome. If I recall the the Higher Power was one of the highest rated Raws of all time.
ReplyDeletewasnt the corporate ministry one of russo's last hurrah's? and yea i liked both the ministry and the corporation, but the combination of them to gether was stupid on soooooo many levels.
ReplyDeleteon a side note it was takers best music ever at the time.
I've got a crazy idea, but what if the higher power was.... Bret Hart.
ReplyDeleteHear me out. This is pre-concussion, pre-Owen's death, post-WCW debut that flopped. Bret was in a rut especially seeing how well WWF was doing and how much he couldn't seem to find a groove and Russo couldn't find anything consistent for him to work with. Bret was fed up with Nash, Bischoff, the whole lot of them.
In Bret's book (I just looked it up) on p. 478-479, in late March of 99, Bret wants to do the steel plate angle with Goldberg but it comes with so many hoops and second guessing that there are no plans to follow up on it and Goldberg will instead be working with Hogan in the fall (according to Nash at the time). So in order to feed rumors, Bischoff tells Bret to go out and say "he quits" in order to feed contract negotiation rumors. Bret says he went home and realistically considered quitting, but once he saw how well the angle was received the next day, he signed a 2 year extension.
It's not that implausible to say that Bret says fuck WCW and extends an olive branch to Vince possibly through intermediaries of Owen, etc. Or Bret goes home and then Vince gives Bret the olive branch.
Unbelievably, it brings an odd symmetry and closure to the Montreal Screwjob (in a Russo way) and reignites an Austin-Bret feud a couple years in the making.
I remember that as well. And it would have been INCREDIBLE.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't make the slightest bit of sense but ''IT'S ME AUSTIN! IT WAS ME...ALL ALONG AUSTIN!'' makes it one of my favourite ever moments.
ReplyDelete''AW SON OF A BITCH!''
That and "WHERE TO STEPHANIE!?" Awesome moments. Also when Shawn Michaels was on the titantron talking to Shane who was in the arena and he has a generic response to something Shane says, and then has 3 riot squad members unmask and one of them is......THE HEARTBREAK KID! A little illogical but a really cool moment nonetheless.
ReplyDeleteI actually preferred Undertaker's theme he used from SummerSlam 1998 until Rock Bottom. Granted it's pretty much the same as his Ministry theme minus the creeping Taker talk and some minor changes.
ReplyDeleteI was looking through Raw ratings earlier(not sure why just wondering when ratings started to really drop...after summer of 2001 is when ratings started to really fall) and the Raw where it was Taker, Trips and Shane vs. Stone Cold, Rock and Vince pulled an 8.4 for the second hour.
ReplyDeleteBret Hart as the Higher Power may be the greatest fantasy booking idea I've ever read. And he could still do ''IT WAS ME AUSTIN!'' and have it make sense. The only person I can think of other thank Mankind/Jake Roberts would be Hogan, seeing as he apparently wanted out of WCW in 1999. OH GOD IMAGINE THE PROMOS.
ReplyDeleteJake's 96 run didn't light the world on fire. He was out of shape and the bible-thumper stuff didn't help. Maybe the change back to the old gimmick makes a difference but probably a small one.
ReplyDeleteMakes sense.
ReplyDeleteBret visited a live taping that was in the area at the time and guys like Rock were trying to talk him into resigning with the company, saying the environment of the place was different now that Shawn was gone and Hunter literally had no weight to throw around anymore.
But from the way Bret worded it in his book, I think he took Rock's statement of "guys like me, Taker, and Austin are in charge now" to mean that there was a new Clique.
I've posted this idea on the blog before. Worked over the scenario in my head a few times.
ReplyDeleteI wish it had happened, especially when I read in Bret's book that he could've left WCW in '99. Would completely change the wrestling landscape. Owen Hart would not have died either, as no doubt he would be involved in the reveal. Hart does not get concussed and gets one last run at the top of the WWF. Shame he was so wounded about Montreal.
Hogan as the higher power would have been insane.
ReplyDelete99 is a blur for me, but 00 is very clear. Probably because I was more invested in the product at the time, which would explain the higher buyrates, if other people were the same.
ReplyDeleteThis would have been Jake in more of a managers role, not wrestling full time. 91-92 Jake was one of the best heels of all time and would have been insane in the Attitude Era. I still think Jake should be in WWE.
ReplyDeletel think they did a decent job with Evolution. All the other stables or factions stunk...well except for X Factor.
ReplyDeleteReally? I may have to pull out my copy of Bret's book but I don't remember him wording it like there was a new clique. You could be right, though.
ReplyDeleteIf I'm not mistaken, he wrote he had just signed an extension of his WCW contract and couldn't do it anyway. Plus, Montreal and WCW had just sucked the life out of him in terms of his love for wrestling.
What about the DX vs. NATION feud? I thought they did a damn good job from WM 14-SS 98
ReplyDeleteI'd guess that WCW and ECW PPV buyrates falling off helped them out as well -- no more deciding between which show to order.
ReplyDeleteI knew it would never happen, but I kept hoping that the Higher Power would be Ted Dibiase, which would have made perfect sense since he was the one who brought Undertaker into the WWF in the first place, and kayfabe-wise, was a character who had the money to compete with Mr. McMahon.
ReplyDeleteOf course, this was during the period when Dibiase was heavily criticizing the company's product and referring to "Austin 3:16" as blasphemy, so I knew there was no chance in hell he'd ever participate in an angle like this.
Right, the visit to the local WWE show was right after he signed the extension. It was the way the Rock worded the "guys like me, Austin, and Taker are in charge" that maybe gave Bret the wrong idea about the way he said it after mentioning Shawn being gone.
ReplyDeleteWell it's like Jim Cornette says. When your hot, you can't screw it up, but when your cold (like now) it's nearly impossible to get hot again regardless of what you do.
ReplyDeleteThose were all his boys, I seriously doubt that would have scared Bret away. Especially with the way things were run in WCW. I think he let his pride and ego get in the way of a WWF return.
ReplyDeleteI remember when Smackdown started that year, someone actually went to the trouble of writing fake spoilers for one of the shows where Jake Roberts actually returned and attacked Stone Cold! In fact, I believe the spoilers for the entire show were fake and included such stuff as Shawn Stasiak winning the European title.
ReplyDeleteOf course, it turned to be a hoax, but I remember the spoilers being fairly detailed and marveling how someone could have enough time on their hands to do something like that.
I should rephrase what I said, its not that all the stables and factions all stunk, like Fuj said WWF has fucked them all up. Evolution was the only one I can recall them getting right. DX was great but they even ruined that when they started involving Hornswoggle.
ReplyDeleteI wanna say they even mentioned Dibiase and Roberts as possible candidates of WWF TV.
ReplyDeleteJake was a wreck so it wouldn't have worked, but man I would've loved a Cult Leader Snake. Dibiase would've worked well too. As much as people look down on fantasy booking, I would've watched any of the scenarios below over more Vince.
Agreed.
ReplyDelete"When I slapped your woman across the face it felt so good, my man. So good I should have to pay for that"
"If you seriously think the hower power is just the right gay at the right time...."
ReplyDeleteMay we please have a live viewing thread for the ROH show?
ReplyDeletethank you for catching yourself, before the snark-claws came out.
ReplyDeletemore people will comment in that thread here than they will get buys... if they feed works.
ReplyDelete/anti-anti smark
I think we can all agree WWE dropped the ball HUGE on this angle.
ReplyDeleteOne of the coolest things about The Ministry ( and to a lesser extent: The Flock and The York Foundation) was that it was a good way to repackage guys on the fly. It allowed the hog farmer to transition into what ultimately became Naked Mideon and who doesn't love Naked Mideon? It allowed Blackjack Bradshaw to trim that goofy 'stache and become just Bradshaw, it gave Farooq another shot at being intimidating, giving us what was ultimately the APA and we got 8 more years of Big Daddy Visc!! (ok so that wasn't ideal, but at least it got Mabel out of those stupid shiny pants- they always hurt my eyes).
ReplyDeleteIt's said a lot, but it's true: the (...only?) good thing about Vince Russo was that everyone had something to do. Even if it's stupid and nonsensical, it gives guys a chance to gain some visibility and as you said, transition into something else.
ReplyDeleteNo matter who it was, it was going to end up being a disappointing angle. As cool as Roberts or DiBiase would have been for the reveal- especially given both of their respective histories with Austin if they wanted to go that route- and opened the door for something BETTER than what we got, I think it still eventually falls flat.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I've read Bret's book a couple times and I never got that he took it that way. Considering the respect and friendship he had with all of them, I doubt it would've kept him from returning even if he wasn't under contract to WCW and wanted to.
ReplyDeleteJust so I had it right right, I reread that portion of the book where he visits. What made me think he took it like that was his answer to the Rock, which was flat out "I don't think so."
ReplyDeleteI also kind of forgot that Austin was sort of messing around with Diana Hart Smith at that time.
I think it would have been awesome if the Higher Power were revealed to be Steve Austin.
ReplyDeleteYup. And you never know who will become a break-out star when that happens. Look at Brian Christopher and Scott Taylor...two under-sized lower-carders who became a hot tag-team act for a couple of years.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't sound so surprising to me. I mean, look at how hot wrestling was back then. You had guys becoming pseudo-celebrities just by writing about wrestling on the internet.
ReplyDeleteOr when the Conquistadors defended the tag titles against Edge & Christian, and afterwards revealed themselves to be The Hardy Boyz, who apparently defeated themselves for the titles on the PPV the night before.
ReplyDeleteWell, we DID actually have Undertaker and Roberts working together before Taker's first face turn. It was decent, but nothing that rose to "awesome" levels.
ReplyDeleteThey did pretty well with the Heenan Family.
ReplyDeleteI know, but we wouldn't frequent one of those pseudo-celebrities blogs would we ;)
ReplyDeleteand depending on hard they push forward with that ridiculously unseccsessful heel turn Steen had at the pay-per-view today, I'm afraid ROH might run permanently cold
ReplyDeleteThat's OK in the illogical department, but it ain't got NOTHING on the Corporate Ministry. Here's an awesome summation done by J.D. Dunn that sums it up better than I could:
ReplyDelete*Okay, by "inherent absurdity" I mean, of course, Russonomics because the whole thing was rendered Stupid On Arrival when the Ministry and Corporation formed the Corporate Ministry and revealed that Vince was behind the kidnapping of his own daughter and her subsequent forced wedding to the Undertaker (and her rescue). So, Vince and Shane going at each other's throats here is all just a ruse, and Vince helping Austin retain the title is all just part of the con. To what end, you might be asking? Why would they go to all the trouble of tricking us into thinking they hated each other to the point where Vince was helping Austin retain his title? Why, to get the title off Steve Austin, of course.
Wait for it.
Wait for it.And, there it is."
Awesome.
Raven would have been an awesome choice. Wasn't this around the time that he quit WCW?
ReplyDeleteI actually kind of bought Vince's justification for it all, that he was willing to do anything...ANYTHING...to make Austin's life a living hell. He was just maniacally crazy enough to pull that off in my eyes.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny that people gloat of this year, but constantly bash WWE these days. If you were go through every episode and see which one was the better one, WWE 2012 would win in a landslide. I get that Russo loved to be backwards and made Raws seem more important than PPVS, but just look at Wrestlemania. There's no possible way that anyone's believes that WM 15 was better than this year's WM.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, people bitch about the lack of good wrestling and storylines that have too many logical flaws.Well, I think the best match of the year in WWF 1999 was the Ladder match between the Hardys and the Brood, which was easily surpassed by Undertaker vs. Triple H, Brock Lesnar vs. John Cena, CM Punk vs. Daniel Bryan and Daniel Bryan vs. Sheamus, and this year is only half over. I much rather see Big Show and Cena's terrible feud than Mae Young giving birth to a hand, the Corporate Ministry, Billy Gunn winning the KOTR, the stupid Brawl For All that costed WWE a lot of money because Steve Williams never recovered, or the plenty of stupid shit that happened during this year.
The point is: nostalgia is one of hell of a mind trick. People remember Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, Undertaker, and Mick Foley, but forget about the nonsensical, abysmal booking, the all-over-the-place, done to death brawling, and the weak wrestling matches.
Threadjack Alert!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/243828/Kenn-Doane-Says-John-Cena-Was-Sleeping-With-a-Married-WWE-Diva.htm
Apparently, Ken Doane isn't just content burning all his bridges in the industry, he also has to piss on the ashes.
That's a good enough justification I guess. Just like when Vince said he could fire Stone Cold, but he'd rather make his life hell.
ReplyDeleteBut it is pretty damn funny seeing JD break it down like that.
It's kind of a shame because Vince was actually getting some pretty strong face reactions, and Shane was killing it in the heel role, and I liked their chemistry in those roles.
So Cena was banging Victoria AND Mickie James?
ReplyDeleteHe's probably upgraded to the Funkettes by now.
ReplyDeleteSo would I, but I hated the Attitude Era to begin with.
ReplyDeleteMore twoards the fall he went back to ECW as Dreamer's partner. He was pretty fuckeaad up on the drugs at that time tho.
ReplyDeleteThe Attitude Era was an out of control party atmosphere. Todays paint by numbers show pale in comparison. You are sadly mistaken my friend.
ReplyDeletesorry I wasn't around to do it but my INisde the indes seemed to get the job done.
ReplyDeleteBut if they wanted the title off of Austin, they could have just stripped him of it. They wanted to do it in as over the top, ridiculous style as possible to get the title off of Austin AND make him look like a complete jackass for trusting McMahon in the first place.
ReplyDeleteI can see why a website would print this, but as they are really serious, character assassinating type allegations, I would hope that any wrestling site that prints this as "news" also has at least another source backing up the allegations, and is not relying solely on the good word of a disgruntled Ken Doane.
ReplyDeleteWell you just changed my mind on the entire angle! I love it!
ReplyDeleteHope he has enough money after the divorce to get a big bottle of penicillin.
ReplyDeleteI think the huge difference is that back in the Attitude era they had competition and we tuned in to see what they would do next to get on top or stay there. Nowadays they can just keep repeating the same crap because they are the only show in town.
ReplyDeleteSome of the aspects of the Attitude Era still bring the PG era down, too. The 15 minute opening promo with multiple interruptions and entrances that eventually set up the top of the hour or last match segment, the occasional main event promo, the "moments ago" recaps a-plenty. However, that era did have plenty of moments where it seem to break free from typical structure. A couple of episodes with Austin in the spring of 97 when he seemed to raise hell for half the show, the Outlaws dumping Funk and Foley while in the dumpster, Austin kidnapping McMahon, and HHH going apeshite over Jericho pinning him by a fast count... these were moments that would just take over the show and be given multiple segments. These felt like organic angles that weren't curtailed by HAVING TO HAVE to move on to the US champion losing another non-title match or a Ryback squash.
ReplyDeleteI certainly miss those kinds of episodes. I do not miss late 98 to late 99 when Russo was at the peak of his influence. So, on a lot of levels, I agree with your sentiment. I love being able to see Punk, Bryan, Jericho, Sheamus, Truth, Kofi, Ziggs, and a handful of others perform for longer than 2 minutes (most of the time) and not having to be saddled with angle of having semen that creates a human hand in an elderly woman's uterus...or was that just hand that got stuck there decades ago?... in any case, it was f'ed up.
I think that is probably true of the smarks, but do you think the marks had any real concept or investment in the ongoing feud between the WWF and WCW?
ReplyDeleteI agree, but I'm what I'm trying to say is would you rather have Raw 1999 or WWE 2012 now.
ReplyDeleteEven though WWF 1997 lost money, it was the year that turned around the WWF. I was a gigantic fan of WWF 1997. It was against the grain and utilized the element of surprised. Every Raw felt like something catastrophic would happen. There's no doubt that Russo didn't have ingenious ideas and was a major reason to why the Attitude Era existed. As a booker, he sucked and always has sucked. I think what made 1997 effective was Jim Cornette. Russo was pitching his new philosophies while Jim Cornette was sticking to his oldschool philosophies. The blend was a perfect mixture - and created some of the best episodic wrestling television ever.
ReplyDeleteSo very true on all levels.
ReplyDeleteI think you are really onto something by describing a lot of those 1997 shows as "organic". Part of the problem with the Russo era is that it was so formula. There were some good aspects to it and some truly fun stuff, but while they sold the era on "anything can happen!" that is only true of the rapid fire pace of the show -- you basically just had the same 5 or 6 things happening over and over again. Just different variations on the same basic skit. Someone will swear, a girl will tease taking her clothes off, someone will talk forever and inevetably be interrupted, the camera will spend half the show backstage waiting for limos/hummers, someone will defend and lose a title that they'll win back on the next show.
I will say though -- Russo's way of booking is probably the smartest way to book a promotion that is lacking depth in actual wrestling ability. Nothing is ever on TV long enough to get boring, the matches are kept very short with emphasis placed more on cool entrances and music than wrestling, lots of outside the ring brawling, and you give all of the good mic workers lots of time to talk.
I've been watching Raws from the attitude era and I'm in mid 99 and there is starting to be longer matches finally. I'd take the Raws from 99 but the PPV's of today.
ReplyDeleteThe PPV's this year have been delivering quality matches. So far this year there have been 7 matches that I'd give ****1/2 or higher.
I'll admit Raw hasn't lit my world on fire in months, but it was a very good show this year when the Brock Lesnar stuff was going on, but WWE produces more than just Raw. I have found myself enjoying a lot of Superstars this year and really enjoyed the new NXT episode. And since it's technically part of WWE, I'd assume FCW counts and that show's main event scene is awesome.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that REALLY hurt my enjoyment of 1997 was the continued employment of the LOD, DOA, Nation of Domination, The Godwins, The Headbangers, and Los Boricuas. I swear if I EVER have to see any of those wrestle eachother again I will lose my mind! But Austin vs. The Hart Foundation, Shawn-Bret, Shawn-Taker, Taker-Kane, DX vs. The World. Lots of great feuds.
ReplyDeleteThat may have been a sarcastic compliment, but I'll take 'em any way I can get 'em!
ReplyDeleteNo that was totally legit. I actually just watched when Vince was revealed as the higher power, and he pretty much says word for word "Now you know how far I will go to make your life hell" It was sort of silly but made Vince seem all the more evil. And then we got the awesome moment of Linda coming out and COMPLETELY handing Vince his own ass and naming Austin CEO.
ReplyDeleteI gotta be honest Linda actually delivered a solid promo.
Yes, but I believe that helped the main event succeed even more because there wasn't many midcarders that could outshine the top feuds, which is what you want.
ReplyDeleteHeenan Family never really did anything together. I would never call them a stable. It was just a bunch of wrestlers under a manager. Not a unit like the others.
ReplyDeleteIsn't Candice Michelle married to someone outside the industry as well?
ReplyDeleteLike he had any bridges in the first place.
ReplyDeleteCandace Michelle makes alot of sense. IIRC wasn't it around the alleged time period that she went on a long run with the Women's Championship and I also remember she was in a lot of segments with Cena too.
ReplyDeleteNo, not in the WWF/WCW feud but in what would happen next or who would show up next. Looking back now, there was some really bad tv back then but it seemed special as it was happening.
ReplyDeleteThis stuff we get today, except for the initial Nexus spot or the CM Punk stuff before he won the WWE title, just doesnt feel special. The fact that WWE has to tell us its a special moment makes it even worse.