Scott,
Do you think SummerSlam 2002 was the right time to make Brock Lesnar WWE Champion? That was a REALLY quick ascent from beating up the Hardy Boyz at Backlash to beating The Rock at SummerSlam. Would it have been better to build him until Wrestlemania? Perhaps he gets fed up with Heyman as his mouthpiece and goes Goldberg-style loner. Then you build him as a babyface leading to his domination of the Royal Rumble. All the while, have Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit trade the WWE Title from summer on (with the decisive match being the Rumble '03 classic) to 'prime' the transition to mat-based main events. Then the Kurt vs. Brock Wrestlemania XIX main event is built up as more 'special' AND it's Lesnar's first title win? It worked out just fine for Brock, and the wins over Rocky and Hogan ran him to the top quickly, but I felt like there was more appeal in the 'chase' with Brock, at least for that initial phase.
Summerslam was fine to put the belt on him, the problem was that they shouldn't have BEAT him right away like they did. Had Brock held onto the belt through Wrestlemania XIX, the Angle feud might have felt like a bigger deal instead of a hot-potatoed World title feud like it ended up being.
Didn't he lose to Big Show because he was injured and they thought he might not be cleared to wrestle for a month or two (even though he was cleared right away)? I wished he could have ran through the Big Show and then kept the belt till Wrestlemania but Angle couldn't have been the one to win it because Angle had to leave for neck surgery.
ReplyDeleteDamn was that XIX main event something else to watch live.
ReplyDeleteI got nothing else, just wanted to pat myself on the back just for being there, lol.
I thought he was over-pushed from his debut, I just wasn't buying into him and there were so many other guys I wanted to see pushed before this new guy came in...but after he beat The Rock clean, I took him serious. That match made him for me.
ReplyDeleteThe problem was that they finally get him over as a monster heel and then immediately start turning him into a face. I liked watching Brock, I liked his matches, but he wasn't the guy I wanted to cheer for. I wanted to cheer for guys trying to take him down. He certainly wasn't the guy I wanted to watch Wrestlemania to see get his big win. He just worked better as a heel.
I felt the same way, I wanted to see him as a the dominant heel holding the title going into Wrestlemania. But I'm not sure who they could've had beat him. Angle would've made sense but he was hurt, although they didn't know that until a couple of weeks before Wrestlemania. Edge would've been a good choice but he was hurt to. Benoit was probably their best choice.
ReplyDeleteYep, that loss to Big Show was at the 2002 Survivor Series show, then the next month at Armageddon they put the WWE title on Kurt Angle.
ReplyDeleteWith hindsight being 20/20, I do agree that building him until Wrestlemania XIX would've been best. And it also leads me to think, who that match against The Rock would've went to if Lesnar wasn't in that spot.
ReplyDeleteHere's a question no one has been asking:
ReplyDeleteWhat would Austin have been doing at Summerslam had he not walked out on the company?
I think it helped his character massively to win the title so soon. The idea was he was this unstoppable monster tearing up the ranks, so he needed to win the title fairly soon to establish his character. After that they got a little too screwy with it, and Big Show really killed a lot of his momentum for me. I liked seeing this giant beast who was also a top notch technical wrestler matching up against Angle in his prime; seeing it as two giants banging their heads together was just boring to me. By Mania I pretty much checked out of WWE in general, and that's a lot of the reason why.
ReplyDeleteI think they did the right thing. I was awed by Lesnar, I remember thinking he was just going to be another boss and then he wrestled and moved like no one had informed his body about things like mass and inertia. There are guys like Punk who have an x-factor in terms of charisma and mind for the business, there are guys like Bryan who have an x-factor in terms of being able to have a five-star match any time anywhere. Then there's Brock who had the look and the in-ring ability.
ReplyDeleteProbably against Eddie Guerrero if they "hadn't moved him to Smackdown". At that point, I couldn't see them doing Rock vs. Austin for the title as the main event.
ReplyDeletePutting the belt on Brock in 2002 was the least of their problems; why on Earth would you have big, scary Brock walk into Wrestlemania 19 the BABYFACE and practically cripped, and far smaller Kurt Angle, the heel? Didn't make sense then, and doesn't in retrospect. WM19 could have been a fantastic "heel wins the main event" and coupled with WM16, would really drive home the "anything can happen @ WM" vibe that the show, while very good, did not have to that point.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. The guy was just so freakishly huge that almost everyone who went up against him looked like a massive underdog. Which was an excellent dynamic when Lesnar was a heel, but not so much when he was a face.
ReplyDeleteBig deal!!!! I was at the house show in 1990 at the Meadowlands where the Hart Foundation beat Tag Team Champions Andre the Giant and Haku by countout. THAT was the show to be at!!!
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone think it would be a mistake to put the title on Ryberg at SS?
ReplyDeleteActually, seeing Andre live sounds fucking awesome.
ReplyDeleteYes....yes it was, except that I was rooting for the Harts. I was old enough to know that the title would not change hands at a house show so the fact that they won at all was exciting. My dad was rooting for Andre though. Like any good son I gloated about the victory.
ReplyDeleteDouble Reply. I kind of agreed with Hunter that "those type of people" didn't deserve to be champion. By "those type of people" I am of course referring to Booker as, at best, an average heavyweight champion of a company that didn't exist anymore. Thats what
ReplyDeleteBelieve it or not, one of their reasons for getting the title off Brock was because he was hurt they didn't want the WWE Title going undefended at Smackdown house shows.
ReplyDeleteYet later on at the same PPV, they put the World title on HBK, who was still part time and didn't work house shows and only had one match (on RAW against RVD) before losing the belt to Triple H.
Believe it or not, I thought the Brock experiment was going to be a complete disaster because he was green as hell his first few months on TV and had zero chemistry with RVD in their PPV matches together at King of the Ring and Vengeance.
ReplyDeleteBut his match against Hogan went a LONG way at building him credibility, and it seemed like the moment Brock stepped into the ring with Rocky, the magic rubbed off and he suddenly morphed into a great worker.
The problem was the Heyman turn. They shouldve had Lesnar drop Heyman to turn face, not to have him get turned on.
ReplyDeleteI agree in theory though Kurt was such an insane wrestling machine that it seemed pretty believable for him to go over *anyone*.
ReplyDeleteWasn't there a backstage wrestling match between the two that Kurt won legit? I seem to remember that being a story but it was a decade ago so my recollection is fuzzy.
My favorite code word of all time has to be "Unruly Youths".
ReplyDeleteI bought into Brock the very first night when he kicked the shit out of the Hardy's. My exact words were "oh my god they made themselves a Goldberg." Then again I was stoned on Hydro at the time. You know between the pot, the Brock stuff, and Hogan's ovation, (I am an unabashed Hogan mark) that was a f**king AWSOME Raw!!!
ReplyDeleteWell to be fair he could have just been referring to the early days of Shawn Michaels and Marty Jannetty.
ReplyDeletei agree with everything but angle didnt hit his prime til 05. hr was just putting on clinic after clinic from like 05-til 07.
ReplyDeletei agree with everything but angle didnt hit his prime til 05. hr was just putting on clinic after clinic from like 05-til 07.
ReplyDeleteholy shitsnacks absolutely.
ReplyDeleteryback does nothing for me and he doesnt pass the finkel test.
he didn't. because Booker successfully revived it with his awesome "King Booker" persona.
ReplyDeleteMan I loved that angle vs lesnar angle. Goddamn smackdown used to be such an amazing wrestling show
ReplyDeleteYes that was a horrible way to turn brock. What the fuck were they thinking.
ReplyDeleteI was blown and away by brock when he debuted. Plus I was a bit familar with him when he debuted because nike had done an ad campaign for him when he graduated college. I was suprised how rapidly he improved in the ring. That first rvd match was weak but less than two months later he was a top flight worker
ReplyDeleteThose "training " vintgettes of rock and brock hyping summerslam kicked ass and helped get brock over also
ReplyDeleteI could see them putting the whc on him. I don't think he's that talented but it might be fun to have an unbeatable champ for a few months. He could do a mini yokozuna run. Squash jobbers, win the belt, hopefully draw some money. I think he needs a manager to get him some heat and help get angles over (if they put him in one ever)
ReplyDeleteYeah but then when he jobs to huntor it would be a bigger deal if it was for a belt
ReplyDeleteAt that time I wondered if a legit amateur match or some kind of mma bout promoted by vince would have drawn any money. These were the two best American amateur wrestles in twenty years at the time. An ncaa legend and an American gold medal Olympian in heavyweight freestyle. Would have been interesting.
ReplyDeleteYup brock was a one in a million talent
ReplyDeleteWhat is this "wrestling" you speak of?
ReplyDeleteAt the time I was fucking stoked for the wm19 main event. It had been such an epic feud. If brock doesn't botch the ssp I think the match gets remembered more foundly (not that it isn't well regarded now)
ReplyDeleteGot them both over really. I remember Rock's just as much as I remember Lesner's
ReplyDeleteProbably putting over angle or maybe austin v Jericho?
ReplyDeleteHell yeah. I still remember rock jumping up and down those rising and descending blocks. That was amazing to see
ReplyDeleteYup it was a bad idea to turn him face so quick. But I do remember reading at the time the post summerslam houses werent drawing flies so maybe vince panicked and went for the face turn
ReplyDeleteThey were pretty much building up an Austin/Benoit feud through the Austin/Eddie feud, who were supposed to fight at KOTR. So Austin/Benoit for Summerslam, which would have been great.
ReplyDeleteSo glad booker got that over and had one last nice run on top before he retired
ReplyDeleteThat's what I remember too. I was never Rock's biggest fan, (although I rooted for him against Cena) but the box jumps were awsome.
ReplyDeleteThat's actually not the worst idea. As much as Sheamus is doing well, the belt is worthless. Give it to Ryback, let him win -EVERYTHING- until Mania, and suddenly it's a bit more valuable.
ReplyDeleteDon't get too excited though. We haven't seen Ryback sell yet. He might be shit.
Brock stakes the biggest claim for actually ending Hulkamania. That match rocked.
ReplyDeleteYes, a big mistake. I love Ryback so far, I even liked him as Skip Sheffield. But I think he'd be better suited slowly getting there rather than going from fighting 2 local dudes to winning the belt a month from now.
ReplyDeleteNo personal attacks on a child in this post. What happened?
ReplyDeleteYou're getting soft.
Hi Chin!
ReplyDeleteLet the real you out. Let's see it again.
ReplyDeleteNo reason to hide here bro.
Oh Chin.
ReplyDeleteI think if they would have done that with Rock vs. Cena instead of what they did, it would have been much better.
ReplyDeleteI think Smackdown right now is pretty decent. Nowhere near 2002 levels, but it's not frustrating to watch like Raw is.
ReplyDelete...so he could lose to HHH in another matchup of the "kings" IIRC.
ReplyDeleteWe heard you!
ReplyDeleteThat's to imply that he wasn't killing it from at least 02, if not 01 or late 00 onward. I was completely out of the loop by 05 and I really only saw bits & pieces of Angle from the time I came back onward (we didn't get Smackdown in my area, I didn't always stay home for WWECW, and I only watched TNA sporadically), so I can't speak with authority. But I know he was damned awesome in 02 and 03.
ReplyDeleteI could buy that considering Kurt won a Gold Medal when he was pretty undersized. Brock from what I heard was a good wrestler but got by on strength more than technique. So I could buy Angle outwrestling him.
ReplyDeleteI thought Angle hit his stride in 2002. Everything from 2002-2007 was amazing.
ReplyDeleteIf secondary titles mattered, he could win one of those. That would make more sense. But they don't, so.....
ReplyDelete...dude... really?
ReplyDeleteThe guy makes it his habit to talk about my kids. I like advertising it to the rest of the blog. Shame he won't ever do it in active threads though.
ReplyDeleteso you respond his necro troll with active troll?
ReplyDeletecome on bro. let it go now. this place is cool. dont fuck it up.
he was awesome in 02-03.
ReplyDeleteim just sayin by 05 he was a complete wrestler.
Nearly that entire WM XIX show was awesome. HBK/Y2J, Brock/Angle, Rock/Austin(Austin's last match) Awesome show!
ReplyDeleteThey could have made it a big deal to have Cody have been the champion, beat Big Show at Mania, and hold the title all the way through to SummerSlam and have Ryback beat him there. Cody would have had the title for a year, he would have beaten the Big Show and been the longest reigning IC champ in years, and then he could have been dethroned by Ryback.
ReplyDeleteYeah, letting go isn't really my style.
ReplyDeleteThe guy follows me to every thread, it's fun to respond in kind advertising exactly who he is.
That would have made sense. Giving the Big Show the IC belt in that ass-backwards program was ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteBut Ryback beating someone for one of the secondary belts could help. Actually having him unify the belts wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Do you mean Rock's match at "Summerslam, 2002"?
ReplyDeleteIf so, I've always been under the impression that Rock came back specifically to put Brock over; if Brock weren't around, Rock wouldn't have returned.
Best WM ever, at least in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI've always disagreed with putting the title on him at "Summerslam", as he really wasn't over at the time.
ReplyDeleteSure, he was a ginormous human being, but there was a lot of backlash against him for the first few months: he had no mic-skills at all, had an extremely conservative/dorky look, and was given big wins left and right. Worst of all, though, was that the announcers kept TELLING us how talented and athletic he was, but he wrestled an extremely basic "hoss" offense; we were bashed over the head about his amateur-wrestling credits, but he basically wrestled like Ezekiel Jackson.
Yeah, his match with Rock was really good, but Rock did pretty much all the work, and Brock was just the huge monster that the rabid NYC crowd wanted to see kick ass. I'd say Brock really didn't become a good wrestler for a few more months.
Which is kind of weird to say, actually, because it takes even the biggest stars YEARS to become good, but Brock is just a one-of-a-kind talent. I really think they should have waited three more months and done Brock/Rock at "Survivor Series, 2003". This probably would have been ideal:
- "Summerslam, 2002": heel Brock vs. face Show
- "Survivor Series, 2002": heel Brock vs. face Rock
- "Royal Rumble, 2003": heel Brock wins Rumble (face Angle retains title against face Benoit)
- "WrestleMania XIX": heel Brock beats face Angle for title
Just one guy's opinion.
dont be shocked if your future endeavored.
ReplyDeleteYOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
MUAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!
I would be very shocked actually, since I'm not the guy running around calling people cock guzzlers.
ReplyDeleteI thought maybe trying to draw him out in a current thread that people would see would get him to stop or embarrass him.
Unfortunately it did neither so I guess I'll just keep enjoying his filth on my Dashboard in private.
Yay?
Ryback is still more Scott Norton than Goldberg at this point, and it didn;t help that the crowd instantly turned on him. The best thing for him would be to become Diesel to somebody's Shawn Michaels, and in fact Cody Rhodes as the arrogant, self-centred heel pursuing the IC Title wouldn't be a bad pairing.
ReplyDeleteWhen u have a picture of your kids as your icon they are subject to ridicule. It's petty but this is the internet.
ReplyDeleteAnyway everything Brock did was awesome untill the Goldberg match. I was so bummed when Brock quit. He was the real Total Package. It sucked in 03 we lost Austin and Rock, 04 Brock and Goldberg, 05 Eddie, 06 Angle and 07 Benoit.. And in 07 I quit watching all the way untill January 2010 when Bret's return vs Hogan Impact debut(uggh both turned out shitty)
WWE really hasn't recovered from all those stars leaving. Now we have lifetime European title level guys main eventing like Del Rio, Sheamus and Albert
I'll take JBL(sorry scott he rocked), Eddie, Angle, Booker full time Undertaker killin it on Smackdown over Sheamus(so boring), Del Rio(he's 100 percent manager)...hell who else is main eventing Smackdown? Orton is great tho.
ReplyDeleteI can understand the logic of WWE turning Brock face, since with HHH as world champ on Raw for the forseeable future, they didn't want two long-term heel champs dominating both shows.
ReplyDeleteHad Brock stayed heel, though, there were still lots of options. After getting through Undertaker in the fall, he could've roared through Big Show at Survivor Series, put on a clinic against Benoit at Royal Rumble and then looked like a monster going into Wrestlemania, where you have two options.
a) Stick with the Angle match, except flip it as Angle is the face (he was already getting respect pops for being such a great wrestler anyway) and Angle the Olympic champ is the last man who can possibly stop the amateur star beast
b) Austin, as again, the last line of defense to stop Lesnar's reign of terror. Talk about making Lesnar vs. Austin 'mean something,' as Stone Cold put it as the reason for his walkout. Though I do reckon that this would've been a scary match given Austin's health by WMXXIX --- Lesnar was still a pretty green power wrestler, whereas Rock was a safe opponent who Austin had worked with a thousand times before. Austin trusted Rock to get him through a safe match, I dunno if Brock could've done the same.
FEED HIM MOAR!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI believe it took place on the Plane Ride from Hell.
ReplyDeleteI think Sheamus' 2009 run should of been built up like this have him beat midcards then work his way up, I think his first WWE Championship run would of been more accepted had they done that.
ReplyDeleteit was angle/hennig on the plane.
ReplyDeleteSaying something once is a habit? Yikes, Chin! That's quite a stretch!
ReplyDeleteBy that logic, I also make it a habit to apologize. Remember when I did that and said I wouldn't do it anymore? Why don't you try to draw that out in active threads, my friend? Because it seems like you are trying to paint me as somebody who repeatedly says nasty things to you about your children, when the truth is that I said 1 derogatory thing and later apologized for it. I am sorry you can not deal with that, but I believe that you can mature over time! Don't give up on yourself! :-)
But Chin, I have stopped. Remember our conversation, where I said I was going to stop, and you kept arguing? Is that filth on your dashboard too? Perhaps it's time to clean it up a bit? :-)
ReplyDeleteIn Chin's defense, he has a right to not like me. I did call his kid ugly once. He uses the word children and implies I do it regularly in the "secret" of old threads, and that is, at best, stretching the truth, and at worst(and more likely) a total lie to get people to dislike me on the internet.
ReplyDeleteThe truth is, I made the comment once and his user pic at the time only contained one child, not two. I also apologized for it later and said I would not do it again, nor was I interested in getting into internet fights with him anymore. As you can see, he's VERY interested in doing it.
As for going in "dead" threads, unlike Chin, I do not visit this site on a daily basis, because I'm usually pretty busy with other things. Take yesterday for exampe: I had a full day with my kids: The zoo, fireworks, swimming, a Toys R Us run, a grad party for their favorite babysitter. I visited this site for about 25 minutes, and Chin commented to me probably 8-9 times, because of course, he was on at that very moment. In fact, I visit this site so rarely that up until recently, I was just a lurker.
So, since I only come on here a couple times a week, I scroll through the threads I've missed, sometimes they are 3-4 days old by the time I read them. I know in his mind, I secretly stalk him on old threads, but I truly do not have that much concern for him. Then again, he also thinks himself(or doesn't, and just wants YOU to think this) that I repeatedly attack his children in old threads. As I stated above, I said something once and apologized for it. Whether he gets over it or not is up to him.
Sorry for the long post, and also sorry for Chin's inevitable reply here where he calls me SO. BRAVE. Hi Chin!
Austin pushed hard for a feud with Eddie, they even shot that one segment where they had an issue at a bar. That's a big one of those "what if?" things because Eddie could have rode that momentum straight into his main event run.
ReplyDeleteThat is if it wasn't from before Eddie got fired the first time. My timeline is all screwy.
Ah, the Plane Ride from Hell. Didn't the reason for Hall's firing come from basically sticking his wang in people's face throughout the flight? Not to mention Flair literally walking around in just his robe?
ReplyDeleteFor some reason I remember it being backstage at a Smackdown or something, the two were goofing on each other about who was *actually* the best wrestler in the promotion at the time so they had a friendly amateur match that Angle won...
ReplyDeleteI googled looking for it but can't find anything so maybe I've just created this story out of nothing.
I want it to be true though so as far as I'm concerned it's fact, lol.
http://www.pwinsider.com/ViewArticle.php?id=1526&p=1
ReplyDeleteHennig did too.
ReplyDeleteI meant Lesnar hennig. I was just thinking angle. I knew better.
ReplyDelete