So at the ROH I-PPV best in the world Kevin Steen cut a Heel promo eviscerating the crowd for being hypocrites and going so far as to yell FUCK NEW YORK! in the Hammerstein. all i could think of when the crowd refused to boo him regardless of what he said was the monster pop Austin got after beating the Rock at wrestle mania as the result of going heel. If you've commited to a big heel turn where you say Fuck the fans (literately in Steen's case) and the crowd won't hate them, how do you fix it. I only know about the Austin example through DVD's and the near universal agreement heel Austin didn't work since it was before my fandom, so i can't even look back on that for comparison in the long term. I guess my question is this, if you turn your top baby face Heel, but the crowd still reacts like he's the top baby face how do you fix it, you can't just take what they said to turn heel back can you?
The first time Austin had that problem they just turned him into the top babyface and drew billions of dollars. I don't see ROH drawing significant money with Steen, but I don't see why they can't just run with him as a babyface who insults the crowd. What booker in their right mind would look at the top guy in the promotion getting monster reactions and go "Shit, we gotta FIX this!"?
The Austin thing was different, because it went beyond the heel turn at Wrestlemania and carried into changing the character into something that people didn't want to pay money to see, the spineless and self-loathing jellyfish who needed emotional support from his former arch-enemy. It was an awesomely nuanced character played by completely the wrong person for the role.
You know, if ROH really wanted to make the crowd boo Steen, maybe their best course of action would be following the "Mick Foley is an Eric Bischoff supporter" model from ECW and turn Steen into the world's biggest John Cena mark.
ReplyDeleteSure, it wouldn't make much sense, but sometimes the only way to get smarky crowds to boo someone they like is to turn them into a shill for the enemy.
I thought Austin did a great job in the role and was pretty entertaining. The Stone Cold role he was playing was going stale and he needed to change it up a bit.
ReplyDeleteAn ROH guy only wrestling the "Main Event Style" would work PERFECTLY. Fucking genius!
ReplyDelete"Sure, it doesn't make much sense," exactly why that is NOT the proper course of action here lol
ReplyDeleteAustin's turn didn't get over in the moment because they made the dumb move of doing it IN TEXAS. He could've personally fucked every audience member's mother and they still would've cheered "The TEXAS Rattlesnake".
ReplyDeleteI can see why he thought he needed to turn to freshen things up but obviously he shouldn't have. The character wasn't finished yet, he still had WCW to beat. He still had Bischoff to beat. Granted, I'm not sure sure who the hell they could have brought in at the time to face Austin (certainly not Booker) but the heel turn was *so* useless in the long term.
That's basically what Mike Bennett was doing, and he was getting TONS of heat like you predicted.
ReplyDeleteHe's kinda gotten away from that now though and gets heat from making out with Maria.
Maria is WAY more effective in my book
ReplyDeleteI read a recap of the promo Steen cut and boy, he let the ROH fans have it. The thing is, he's completely justified in his rant. Calling out the fans for turning on the ROH champions (that they all wanted to see win it in the first place like Nigel, Tyler, Davey), for cheering Generico beating Steen and then going crazy for Steen when he came back. It sounded pretty brilliant if you ask me, but the NYC fans probably jizzed themselves over it.
ReplyDeleteOh, they sure did. Their response to "You're the biggest piece of shit crowd in the world!" was a chorus of "YES" chants.
ReplyDeleteAfter he just got done specifically mocking them for paying for ROH tickets to come chant for someone from another company all night.
I think my hang up is that Face Steen was FUN. It worked because the fans hopped on his bandwagon and believed in his promise to rebuild ROH in his image. he was one of the few guys ROH had who connected with the fans and i feel like we might lose that with him heel. If the Crowd is gonna cheer for him anyway, why risk messing up the formula that made crowds love him in the first place. and here is the big problem now, who the fuck is the top Babyface, NO ONE is on Steen's level as it pertains to being over.
ReplyDeleteJust watched the Kumbaya skit the other day. Out of context from the storyline, it seemed like Stone Cold had already kicked Vince's ass every which way but lose, and was looking for new ways to torture him.
ReplyDeleteJumping a couple of tangents ahead of myself, did not the Jericho/Benoit team have the greatest three day performance in the history of tag team wrestling? They beat six other tag teams in a Tag Team Turmoil match at Judgment Day, then the next night on RAW win the tag team titles by pinning the WWF Champion (putting The Game on the shelf for eight months in the process), and top it all off the next night at the Smackdown taping by retaining over three other teams in the first ever TLC match on broadcast television.
You think smarky crowds WOULD have gone along with the heel turn more than Mark towns, please explain your thinking, cause i would figure it would be the other way around
ReplyDeleteThe Eric Bischoff love came later. Mick Foley really got himself over as a heel by having long, boring matches, with headlocks several minutes in duration (maybe that became Randy Orton's inspiration?)
ReplyDeleteThe person to bring in to represent WCW to be foil for a face Austin would've been Hogan (and, of course, the NWO). Goldberg would've worked, too, albeit I'm not sure how you even turn Goldberg heel, since his entire working persona is pretty much just a screaming force of nature. I honestly can't remember a single Goldberg promo. His best angles were Jericho talking entirely for him in a feud he didn't want, and him ramming his head into Bret Hart's chestplate (again, no talking necessary). My ridiculous fantasy booking would have Bischoff playing Bob Hoskins in Unleashed with a rabid Goldberg destroying whoever he pointed to.
ReplyDeleteOf course, none of that was possible because Vince didn't want to pony up for the guaranteed contracts (which were, admittedly, ridiculous). Some of the outsiders COULD have been built up into that level of threat (Booker, RVD, maybe DDP or even Rhino, since he was the last ECW champ)...but that would've required jobbing out/crushing most of the established WWE roster, something Vince was certainly not willing to do, especially not for guys he'd just hired and probably didn't trust very much. In retrospect, he should've just bought one or two big name contracts (Goldberg or Hogan or Nash/Hall) to be the proper point of the Invasian spear. But, woulda shoulda coulda...
I just wanna see Austin/Punk happen at Wrestlemania next year. :)
Cornette really is set in his ways of having Davey be the top guy. The best thing for them to have done was to have Cornette and Davey screw Steen out of the belt, turning them into probably the two biggest heels on the roster instantly and completely cementing Steen as the top babyface of the company. It almost seems too easy, but now what the hell do they do? Steen is the champ and the "top heel" but is getting the biggest babyface reactions, Davey is supposed to be the "top face" but is getting the John Cena treatment.
ReplyDeleteIt felt awkward to watch honestly, would have enjoyed the show more if it just ended with Steen retaining the tittle and holding it in the air, no promo
ReplyDeleteIsn't Davey contemplating retiring at the end of the year to become an EMT? or are those all baseless rumors
ReplyDeleteFucking hipsters.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what he wants to do, but I know before FB 2010 (I think) he was contemplating retirement, too. Good for him if he wants to get out.
ReplyDelete" What booker in their right mind would look at the top guy in the promotion getting monster reactions and go "Shit, we gotta FIX this!"?"
ReplyDeleteVincent Kennedy McMahon; see Daniel Bryan.
But if he does want out it still poses the question, who the hell is the top baby face XD lol
ReplyDeleteYES YES YES YES YES YES YES!
ReplyDelete"It was an awesomely nuanced character played by completely the wrong person for the role."
ReplyDelete100% disagree. Austin played it as good as anyone could and IMO what made it work (writing-wise) was the aforementioned character change. I think the biggest problem is the WCW purchase came about at the same time so fans wanted to cheer Austin as he stomped a mudhole in their ass.
And frankly, most of us live in a country where horseshit like Epic Movie makes $100 million so what the public likes and what is performed/written well are many times not one and the same.
I think Benoit had one of the best 2 week stretches of anyone I've ever seen(Jericho had an awesome run too, but Benoit had a few great singles matches)
ReplyDelete5/20 Chris Benoit vs. Kurt Angle 2 out of 3 falls. Awesome match somewhere in the **** range. Later that night Benoit and Jericho win Tag Turmoil and if I remember correctly they had a pretty awesome final fall against E&C(which pisses me off that we didn't see a full Benoit&Jericho vs. E&C tag match)
5/21 Raw Benoit and Jericho vs. 2 man power trip ***** Amazing tag match with crazy action and heat.
5/24 Smackdown TLC III ***** Another awesome match, I think Benoit got injured during this one.
5/28 Raw Benoit vs. Stone Cold **** this is their less awesome match. They would top themselves in Edmonton on SmackDown.
5/31 Smackdown Benoit vs. Austin ****3/4-***** Haven't seen it in a while but its damn close to 5 stars.
Pretty much a crazy streak of awesome matches on FREE TV. I remember being 8 years old videotaping these Raws and SmackDowns and just being in awe of these matches.
Then a couple weeks later there is the Cage match with Kurt Angle.
The fact that they put out the tag title win and the TLC match back to back automatically qualifies them as one of the greatest teams ever, workrate wise. I miss tag team wrestling and non-demon/child-killer Chris Benoit. Sigh.
ReplyDeleteThe image of Steen wrestling in jorts, finishing matches with the F-U and STF makes me laugh.
ReplyDeleteAs much as it didn't work, I suppose you still have to give it to WWE for trying TWICE to make Austin heel and run with it. But yeah, the execution and timing of both of them were horrible and it didn't work. I still say they didn't have to make him a spineless putz to turn him (the argument was they couldn't just turn him by having him "be mean" or beating up good guys, for obvious reasons), but there are other ways to create a heel persona without going soft.
ReplyDeleteIts not hipsters. Most the NYC crowd is the type of troll you think of when you think of a wrestling fan: awkward, condescending neckbeards who are outwardly hostile towards anything that doesn't fit their narrow view of wrestling. I swear, they don't even like having fun. If it's not serious business, they'll shit all over it.
ReplyDeleteThe hipsters have moved on to the CHIKARA shows. They got distracted by the bright colors and irony.
I was pissed that I was able to get tickets for the Calgary show and see one awesome Benoit-Austin title match, but then couldn't get the Edmonton tickets in time, in my own city no less, only to have my roommate call me from the arena during the match yelling "THIS THE BEST FUCKING MATCH I'VE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE!" I really, really, REALLY regret not going down to the arena and trying to score tickets for that one. Because I probably would have been able to.
ReplyDeleteOh man, that's one match I'd have LOVED to been there to see. I have a similar regret about the 2 Man Power Trip vs. Benoit&Jericho match on 5/21. It was in San Jose which is like a 2 hour drive. I could have gone to see that match. With that molten crowd, with those 4 guys going 20 minutes, with Jericho and Benoit getting the big win? Totally regret that to this day.
ReplyDeleteThe storylines may not have been very interesting in the interim from WrestleMania X7 to King of the Ring but I'll be damned if they didn't have a boatload of awesome matches.
I suppose they could try to put Eddie Edwards into that role, since he's the closest thing they have to Davey; another candidate, if they can sign him, might be Homicide, and you can position him as the returning hero out to "save the company" or whatnot (even if it galls Cornette to have to call upon him.
ReplyDeleteSmarky crowds would at least understand where they were heading I think. The same way smarky crowds are "bored with Cena being a face" or whatever.
ReplyDeleteThe full-on marks though, like full-on Texans, would cheer for Austin regardless. Honestly one of Austin's biggest moments was coming out in a suit to be the "Corporate Champ" and then turning on Vince with a stunner. I feel like the marky people would've just assumed the next night Austin would Stunner Vince. (Again, all opinion lol)
I think Goldberg could've been an instant uber-heel to Austin without even having to talk really. I mean, think about it, how much talking did Brock have to do before ER? A psychotic force of nature would have been exactly the kind of thing Austin needed after the "mind games" of Hunter over the last year.
ReplyDeleteBut yeah, the contracts and such.
I'd like to see Austin in 99 against Punk. I can't imagine Steve's got a lot of gas left in the tank (also I was there live for XIX so hopefully I got to witness his final match)
I thought about Eddie too but it's still the same old guys, the whole thing with Steen is that he's new to the tittle picture, Edwards has lost what, 4? 5? tittle shots already. maybe use whomever they can think of as food for Steen till Cole is over and believable enough (assuming of course he ever gets there)
ReplyDeleteOk, i sorta get what your saying, thanks for elaborating
ReplyDeleteI would have been more upset by the Steen promo if he hadn't been 100% right. The people are going to cheer him until they get tired of him, so he was turning on the fans first, it's kind of awesome, actually.
ReplyDeleteEpic movie was epic.
ReplyDeleteNo, you're right. But in the company's mind Eddie might be "next in line" or whatever.
ReplyDeleteAs far a stopgap feud, there might be something in the Steen/Jacobs/Corino trio taking on the Briscoes - again, the Briscoes have been there since Day One, so them having a vested interest in the company would be logical, and it's been long enough since the Briscoes/Steenerico wars to make this a fresh program. And, hell, in canon it would make a bunch more sense for Cornette to use Jay and Mark as surrogates, since they used to be allies.
I'd like to see the match Briscoes are over enough some of the crowd might boo the Steen's Trio of Evil too. I think the Briscoes actually talked smack about Steen on the website too
ReplyDeleteYou're probably right about Goldberg, especially in front of a WWE crowd and especially with Austin's superior mic work to carry the feud.
ReplyDeleteAustin's hinted that he's in a lot better shape and healed up enough that he could put on a good match again, but he just wants to pick his spot (I don't have a specific reference/citation, I just seem to remember that from somewhere before, I could be wrong). Honestly, Punk might not be the best feud for him, drawing or money wise, I just think it'd be the most fun to watch for me as a fan. Austin/Cena or Austin/Taker for the Streak would obviously be much bigger draws, but I'd be less interested in seeing the actual matches (and honestly, how many more Streak matches does Taker even have left in him, at this point? The HHH match this year was mostly just well-timed chairshots and drama, albeit very well-done drama.).
A look at the top 40 music charts will tell you that too.
ReplyDeleteClosest thing? I can't tell the two apart, along with Roderick Strong.
ReplyDeleteDuhhh, Edwards wears the red gear. See? Easy.
ReplyDeleteAustin's character wasn't even stale by WM17. Remember, he was out of action from Survivor Series 1999 to fall 2000, so that was a long enough break that the fans were eager to see him again. Not to mention the fact that post-return, Austin was using his old technical wrestling skills in matches against Angle and HHH, so Stone Cold was even giving the fans something fresh in the ring.
ReplyDeleteIt was just the wrong move at the wrong time, especially with Rock going on hiatus to film a movie and leaving WWE without a clear top face (I guess, Undertaker?) from April until August. Austin should've stayed face to take on the WCW threat, with either an established heel like Angle or Triple H joining the Alliance or elevating one of the WCW/ECW guys to be a total main event threat.
Yeah, I like the idea of Punk/Austin, mostly because Austin seems to be willing to give the rub to Punk and Punk *desperately* needs something to send him up to Cena-level
ReplyDeleteBUT
Hopefully Punk is smart enough to turn heel before the build stars because if Punk thinks his Straightedge stuff is somehow going to be the face against Austin's beer drinking he's absolutely retarded. I mean a) It's fucking Steve Austin and b) EVERYONE drinks and thus relates to Steve Austin
If they do it they better turn him total 100% heel beforehand otherwise there's no way it works as well as it should (meaning sending Punk to the moon rub-wise)
Personally I agree, I thing the "Texas Rattlesnake" character could've lasted forever, my god, *everyone* cheered that character...
ReplyDeleteBut the man himself said he felt like his act was getting stale and his pops were getting smaller. Whether that's true or not I'm not sure but Austin himself says as much in his DVD and I'm thinking he probably had a better ability to gauge his success than I do lol.
I think really the Stone Cold character should have been one of those characters that dominates completely until someone comes along and destroys the "Every Man" with no comeback, retires him completely actually. It should have been Brock. And if they had actually bothered to build to a PPV match they could have made a zillion dollars with it but instead they tried to push Austin and he rightfully went home instead.
One thing about Austin, he basically made all the right character decisions every step of the way except for the outcome to WM17 (which he says on his DVD he would've called an audible and NOT turned heel if he could have but Vince was already at ringside)
If only it wasn't a movie.
ReplyDeleteLol. I just felt like typing that. I have no idea what that movie was even about. I assume it sucked though, was that another in the 30-movie string of Wayan's-based parody movies?
ReplyDeleteBest sign on a RAW ever was a huge banner in the front row several years ago that read "Another headlock, Randy??" How that got on TV ill never know but I loved it
ReplyDeleteEventually, Austin would have to turn, but yes, the invasion was not the time.
ReplyDeleteJust a rash of key injuries happened at the time, HHH, Benoit the most glaring.
LOL!!!!!
ReplyDeleteAnd Zack Ryder.
ReplyDeleteThe entire problem with Austin's heel turn is that they didn't do a double turn w/ Triple H. I know that was the eventual plan but Triple H got hurt.
ReplyDeleteIf they turned Triple H the next night on Raw -- when the crowd was practically begging for it to happen -- the WWF fans would've have paid to see heel Austin because they'd be paying to see face Triple H beat his ass.
Instead, the 2-man Power Trip (outside of the Raw tag match w/ Benoit/Jericho) flamed out in spectacular fashion because the top faces were Kane & the Undertaker for 2 months.
Also, I think not turning Triple H the night after WM 17 is one of the worst booking decisions in WWF history. HHH/Austin after a double turn would've done Backlash2000-esque numbers for a buyrate. And they were on the verge of making Triple H the successor to Rocky/Austin.
ReplyDeleteawesome.
ReplyDeletehow they get work baffles me.
ReplyDeleteI never bought HHH ever being a face.
ReplyDeleteHe just doesnt have it. Ofc now he is what i like to call "perma-over" due to his longevity, but in 2001, didnt buy it after WM17, yes the crowd was molten for him but he doesnt scream babyface to me.
and the whole MSG return... ugh please... running that same video of the quad tear for like 6 months was like fuck this guy.
In Bryan's case, the YES thing was after he turned full heel. It became huge after Mania but to be completety honest, I don't want to see Bryan turn face because he's so damn good as a heel.
ReplyDeleteHey hey hey, don't be insuling Chikara now. Sure their fanbase might compose of a ton of hipsters but they are, IMO, still the most entertaining promotion right now.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't believe how horrible Epic Movie was. One of the running jokes was that one character repeats what another one just said. That was it. No payoff or anything. My twelve year old thought the jokes were childish.
ReplyDeleteAs a Triple H fan I wanted him to turn face so bad that night. Damm
ReplyDeleteThe worst outcome of the Austin heel turn was the introduction of the "What?" chant - something that torments wrestlers trying to speak and fans trying to listen to this very day. Sooo distracting.
ReplyDelete"Are you sassin Stone Cold? What?" Bad heel turn or not that line still cracks me up.
ReplyDeleteAnd it works, because even though I know damn well what he's doing, I still hate him for it and don't like seeing him get hyped as this great wrestler. What I'm really going to hate is when he inevitably gets signed to developmental and, just because he came out of ROH, people who don't actually know his wrestling are going to think he's some technical wizard, and then when he disappoints in the ring it's going to make all of ROH look bad.
ReplyDeleteI saw their first match against each other in November 00 in Orlando live, and I thought it was massively overrated, funnily enough. Although I marked out at the general idea of Benoit being in a hot main event.
ReplyDeleteNobody has mentioned WCW's failed attempt to turn the Road Warriors heel in 1988? At least with Austin WWE tried to change the character. WCW took two guys who were popular because they beat the crap out of everyone, and then tried to turn them heel by having them the crap out of people more brutally.
ReplyDeleteIn this case, WCW got out of it by inserting the Varsity Club into the the Roas Warriors feud with Sting & friends, turning it into a 3-way feud and then a feud between the Road Warriors and the Varsity Club.
I'm afraid this is what there trying with Steen as his heel persona seems to be the exact same guy, now he just says fuck the fans instead of listen to the fans. he is still an unstoppable monster who wrecks all in his path, just like before
ReplyDeleteNot quite. It was written by 2 guys who also worked on Scary Movie but they broke away and continued on with multiple spoofs-that-aren't-really-spoofs.
ReplyDeleteActually Epic Movie made just under $40 million in the USA. Another $47 million in foreign markets.
ReplyDelete"Yes the crowd was molten for him..."
ReplyDeleteWell that's point. Even if Triple H ultimately failed as a face in 2001 -- they still would've popped a mega-buyrate for Backlash, especially coming off of the ***** No Way Out classic they had.
Look at these numbers:
Backlash 2000 buyrate = 625,000
WM 17 buyrate = 1+ million
Backlash 2001 buyrate = 375,000
I dont know where face Triple H vs. heel Austin would've ended up, but you could argue they lost about 200,000 buys (at least) by going with Two-Man Power Trip vs. Kane/UT. If you figured a PPV was $30 back then....they gave away $6 million by not turning Triple H face.
That one buyrate alone would've justified it.
It became huge before WrestleMania. No one realized it until about 60 guys in the front section of WrestleMania all showed up with Yes! signs.
ReplyDeleteI can guarantee you that if the WWE knew that was going to happen, they would not have booked the 18 seconds match because all it did was end up as a star making match for Bryan. Which was the opposite of their goal.
Unfortunately it just seems to be more and more true that Cornette, Delirious, and Cary don't really know what direction to take ROH in. Cornette has had some good ideas in booking in the past but he's really hung up on being old fashioned and I just don't think he's going to make himself ever get used to a heelish tweener being the top guy in the company. Delirious doesn't know how to book matches to end a feud, so Davey vs. Steen is just going to keep dribbling along to diminishing returns, while Corino and Jacobs collect a paycheck to stand around at ringside. This company really needs a fresh perspective on booking, and unfortunately, the guy who cut quasi-shoot promos during the Attitude Era about breaking the legs of guys in other companies who cut quasi-shoot promos isn't going to be the one to pull it off.
ReplyDeleteWho says you can't just take it back? Who gives a shit? If it didn't work, it didn't work. And no, there's no point in being angry that someone's getting cheered instead of booed. The fans are going to do what the fans want to do.
ReplyDeleteWhen you try to fix shit like that, you've got situations like Michael Cole where he was literally interrupting people and shouting about how pathetic Jim Duggan looked in order to get cheap heat. Instead it just made people change the channel.
Their goal was to set a new Mania record for fastest pin. The fact that Bryan became a bigger star afterwards was unintended but they played it up to their credit. I just think Bryan is dull as a face.
ReplyDeleteThat's not an insult. Hipsters aren't as bad as people seem to imagine. And CHIKARA has a large hipster fanbase. Not insulting either group.
ReplyDeleteThat was kind of the point, though - it wasn't just a heel-turn, but a completely different character. The guy that we all believed in ultimately became a coward.
ReplyDeleteI could be wrong, but I read Scott's statement as meaning that it was completely wrong to try to turn the super-popular Austin character, not that Austin himself couldn't play the role.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you, Austin was PHENOMENAL in the role, he did paranoid and delusional so well, mixing in equal parts bad-ass and chicken-shit (where he'd be afraid of accepting a match, but then would bring the fight once the bell rang). He tried to take every shortcut he could just to remain champion, including trying to get out of defending the title, but when there were no other options, he'd still fight tooth-and-nail to keep the title.
Amazing stuff, and Austin nailed it.
Same with Punk and Sheamus becoming the same smiling, lame-insult spewing shells of their former awesome selves.
ReplyDeleteSomeone catch me up to speed here. I've kinda sorta followed along with ROH for awhile, read Ryan's recaps and all that. But I just started watching the show a few weeks ago when I found out it was in syndication where I live.
ReplyDeleteNow, I haven't seen the most recent one (that aired here on Saturday) yet, but last I had seen, I thought Steen WAS a heel still. An Austin-lite, anti-hero type that the fans loved, sure, but a heel nonetheless. No?
Help me out, people. I'm confused.
Triple H failed as a face in 2002 because the Jericho storyline was awful and he couldn't move like he used to. I don't see any reason why him turning face the night after Wrestlemania wouldn't have been a massive success and you're right, would have quite possibly (if not likely) popped a similar buyrate to Backlash 2000.
ReplyDeleteHell, when he did his brief fake-out face turn for a few weeks the previous fall before the reveal that he was behind the Austin attack, he was massively over even then as a face. And really, even before he turned, he was getting huge face reactions during the storyline with Angle and Steph. I went to a house show around that time- before he'd turned- and his face pop rivaled that of Rock and Jericho. A couple of my friends were convinced HHH had actually gotten the pop of the night. (He didn't. Rocky did. The point is, it was really fucking close.)
He'd reached that rarified air where he was massively over as a heel and getting the proper response- people booing the shit out of him, not cheering him as a "cool heel." But not in an X-Pac heat sort of way, in a "we love to hate you and will love to love you at the drop of a hat" sort of way, which is exactly what happened.
So anyone that wants to hold up what happened in 2002 after the quad injury and return as evidence that HHH as a face would have failed in 2001....I strongly disagree. It would've been huge. I know they were building to it eventually, but right out of the gate after WM would've been the way to go.
Oh, and one more semi-related hypothetical I'm curious about. What if they did everything the exact same, do the swerve with HHH and align him with Austin, but move up the HHH/Austin v. Jericho/Benoit story a month and run that at Backlash?
ReplyDeleteHe's always been a heel, but he's played to the crowd a lot more and kind of rolled with the positive crowd reactions. It's not so much a heel turn as trying to force himself to be booed by the fans that aren't trying to boo him. It's not going to work though, even directly insulting the fans doesn't make anyone want to boo someone.
ReplyDeleteOK, that's kinda what I thought was the case, thanks.
ReplyDeleteI get it if it was a Daniel Bryan-type situation; yeah, it would've been silly to hotshot a face turn for him at that time based on a couple of smarky crowd reactions; the seeds were planted for whenever they want to turn him face, but he was/is a hot heel, the top one on Smackdown, and it would've been Orton in 2004 all over again to turn him then.
But this Steen thing....it's been months, hasn't it? A year? Like I said, I'm pretty new to ROH. But it seems insane to me that they haven't done the Austin/Hart double turn with Steen and Richards.
You could argue that keeping Steen heel is the only way to keep him face.
ReplyDeleteThink of that paradox and try not to go insane.
REALLY hoping that Punk lays into him about that if their program comes to fruition. You just know Punk hates it.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Had they turned Trips face, the fans would've still cheered Austin over him.
ReplyDeleteThey hire each other.
ReplyDeleteI was at boarder wars and i thought it was a double turn (was clearly mistaken lol) since Steen was wrapping himself in the Canadian flag and playing to the crowd, while Davey flipped us off and yelled about how Canada can go fuck itself
ReplyDeleteIt's true. Wrestling fans have become too "smart" for our own good. I can't say I'm immune. It's been a long time since I've been to a live event but if I were to go to a WWE show today, Punk is the only face I can say I'd definitely cheer for.
ReplyDeletePunk has a much better reason to lay into Austin; When he was dealing with his dad's alcoholism, Austin was drinking beer every Monday and revelling in it.
ReplyDeleteThis is another reason why I like Chikara. It's a fed for mostly smart fans but they make a concious effort to keep heel/face relations intact. For the most part that is. I know that Archibald Peck was just too entertaining to boo but he was just a comedy character in the first place.
ReplyDeleteDavey allegedly told Inside Wrestling that he would be retiring at the end of his ROH contract, which I think lasts until sometime in 2013. He was considering retiring to become an EMT a few years ago due to pressure from his wife, but then they got divorced and he reconsidered. Now that he's actually been a champion in ROH and Japan I think he's done all he wants to do. He'll probably start doing MMA though.
ReplyDeleteto it always felt like it didn't work because it was obvious to almost everyone that this was the right moment to put someone fresh against them. that didn't even have to be Jericho and Benoit, I am pretty sure that an extended Austin/Triple H vs. Team Extreme program would have been a lot more exciting for the casual viewer than the millionth feud between them and Kane/Undertaker as well.
ReplyDelete"the guy who cut quasi-shoot promos during the Attitude Era about
ReplyDeletebreaking the legs of guys in other companies who cut quasi-shoot promos
isn't going to be the one to pull it off." Sorry, gonna need you to fill me in here, who is this referring too
Jim Cornette had a period in late 97 where he would cut semi-shoot promos on Raw where he'd talk about stuff going on in WCW and other stuff. At one point he made a comment about guys like the Clique exposing the business and said how if Kevin Nash said the kind of things he'd say on Nitro ten years prior to that, he'd have had his legs broken.
ReplyDeleteThe basic idea is that even though Cornette is the most avid shoot-interview subject in wrestling, he still thinks all wrestlers should hold to their carny code and be clear cut faces and heels and not ever break the fourth wall. Kind of hypocritical.
and a problem, Steen (and Corino on commentary last night) leaning on the fourth wall, without breaking it mind you, has been awesome
ReplyDeleteThat's how I've always taken it, as well. Austin wasn't close to getting stale... as he was getting most of the cheers over Rock in the run-up to WM 17. Also agree about the HHH stuff mentioned above, as just aligning himself against Austin (which he had been for the past 18 months or whatever it was) would've worked perfectly, no change to his character needed.
ReplyDeleteAnd they didn't even do the fastest pin thing... since Kane/Chavo from WM 24 was shorter. They should've had the bell ring as soon as he turned from the AJ kiss, then it would've lasted only 6 or 7 seconds.
ReplyDeleteAgreed... it's one thing to cheer because you think the character is cool, but once he starts insulting you and your town, you're supposed to get the hint and boo. But, that's according to theory... and since it didn't happen, ROH has to know its audience and adapt.
ReplyDeleteI think in the DVD (or in the Meltzer interview he did), he said if he knew where the turn would lead him and the business, he would've called an audible in the ring and have given Vince the stunner after he won the title. That would've been a great twist, actually... here's a guy who sold his soul because he was so desperate to win the title (which is the story they told), but in the end, the DTA aspect to his character rang true, as he would've used Vince to get his title back.
ReplyDeleteThere's an interesting angle they could've did after that, where the WWF wrestlers would keep telling Vince that they needed Austin to vanquish WCW, but Vince couldn't trust him because he got double-crossed... while Shane would try to convince Austin to join WCW to win the feud with Vince once and for all.
I was at that Raw (it was in Syracuse, NY) and I think most everyone figured that he was going to reel Vince in and turn on him right there. It was one of those things that everyone saw coming, but it was still legendary when it happened. Nowadays, Austin would've stayed in the suit for 3 weeks to be WACKY AND UNPREDICTABLE!
ReplyDeleteI havent liked a Wayan in a movie since Scary Movie 2.
ReplyDeleteBefore that, Mo' Money.
Im gonna respectfully disagree. At best he would have been #3-4 babyface. Then you go into the Invasion and someone had to turn. So why turn HHH face to turn him back heel. Cuz really Austin should have never gone heel for the Invasion. With Rock out for the Summer, you could have had HHH as a heel holding the WCW belt like he always wanted to against an Austin led WWF.
ReplyDeleteI mean theres a billion different ways they could have gone for the Invasion and i dont wanna get into all billion of them so Im gonna say i would have done it differently than you, not to say urs wouldnt of worked, just i dont like it.
Nothing changes
ReplyDelete