Scott,
How is Vader not in the WWE Hall of Fame already? With Vince recently moving toward acknowledging legacies outside of WWF/E more and more, Leon seems like a shoe-in yet he's not in yet. I always had the impression Leon White was universally-loved by the lockeroom and never heard any bad blood in promotions, so it's not a Savage-type thing. The guy had a tremendous run in WCW and had some good matches in WWF, despite never getting that '96 title reign. Throw in his international body of work and the guy is FAR more deserving than a Ron Simmons, much less the usual Koko B. Ware reference. Any idea why ol' Leon hasn't gone in sooner?
Because the Hall of Fame is a joke and has nothing to do with merit in the least? I could certainly see him going in at some indeterminate point in the future, though.
As an aside, wouldn't it be kind of cool for WWE to invite Sting to induct Vader?
Never gonna happen.
What if it happens after Vince has already bought the TNA video library?
ReplyDeleteOff-topic, but watching the new Falls Count Anywhere DVD, specifically the Austin v Hart RAW match, and...Vince says 'WWF' without it being edited out.
ReplyDeleteI can see bashing Koko's induction but leave Ron Simmons alone. We are talking about the first black champ. DAMN!
ReplyDeleteI'm still waiting for Dean Malenko to be inducted. It makes perfect sense for a "lower card" inductee. He has the career, and also he is still on good terms with WWE and works as a road agent.
ReplyDeleteVader is one of my all-time favorites. As far as his locker room standing, I think that might be a mixed bag. The Paul Orndorff incident wasn't good for him but other than that...who knows. I remember reading that he was a decent help to Bret during the time leading up to Montreal in 97. Honestly though, he might be the best American to wrestle in Japan sans Stan Hansen, he ruled WCW for a couple years...and really, Vince is the only thing that held him back in WWE. He was jobbed repeatly two years into his run. Scott is right, The WWE Hall Of Fame has no merit anyways. Also, how over was he a couple weeks ago on Raw? That's as excited as I've seen the fans in a while.
ReplyDeleteSteve Williams had a lot of success in All Japan too, with none other than our lovable FORMER Interim General Manager of Monday Night Raw, and the former Vice President of Talent Relations Johnny Ace.
ReplyDeleteDoes Foley count as and American who wrestled in Japan cause I would him ahead of Vader all time.
ReplyDeleteThe "universally loved by the locker room" line got me. Ask Paul Orndorff how much he loves Vader. Bison Smith is on record as calling him a crybaby. Bret Hart also called him a big baby in Wrestling With Shadows, and Jim Cornette's Timeline of the WWF 1997 DVD brings up what a whiner and a complainer he could be. And to bring up something only partially unrelated, Mick Foley in Have a Nice Day wrote about how much it annoyed him when Vader would sing in the car on road trips. "Who sings this song, Leon?" "Uh, The Beatles?" "Yes, and let's keep it that way."
ReplyDeleteFuck the WWE Hall of Fame. Who cares who's in it? It's a section on the website. The difference between being a HoFer and being an Alumni is a video package one time a year and a few mouseclicks. It means fuck all.
ReplyDeleteKoko B. Ware is in because he used to sing for the girls in all the bars they'd go to back in the day and get them all warmed up for the rest of the guys to bring back to the hotel, and because he was available & said yes. That's pretty much the only reason.
Doesn't Bret call him a big teddy bear or something? I always thought Bret was referring to Vader in that way as a term of endearment or something. I don't know maybe I misinterpreted. I actually just read Foley's first book, I'm reading his second now.
ReplyDeleteMy question is, what's kept Bob Backlund out all these years? I don't think there's any bad blood between he and Vince, is there? Not like he didn't carry the promotion for five or six years, then come back and have a very successful run to keep him in the audience's recall. Plus you know it would be a great speech.
ReplyDeleteBob Backlund was the MAN.
ReplyDeleteI think it was J.R., but someone adressed this. From what I remember, they've reached out to Backlund before, but he still believes his career is not over and doesn't want to be inducted yet.
ReplyDeleteDebating whether a guy belongs in a HOF was one of my favourite things to talk about with the guys (at work or on a patio on a lazy summer day). Is Adam Oates a HOF'er? How about Curt Schilling? Or Cris Carter? It gave us a chance to reminisce about some of our favourite players and bring back great memories from childhood.
ReplyDeleteThere's no point in even discussing the WWE HOF. I'm actually a fan of it cause it gives the guys one last night with the spotlight on them, but I do wish it was more legitimate.
Well, I can't speak for the e-mailer, but I didn't see it as bashing so much as saying that Vader's career was far and away better than Simmons'.
ReplyDeleteI would put Vader well ahead of both. Williams was a one time Triple Crown champ and Ace never achieved much as a singles wrestler. Vader, on the other hand, was a multi-time champion in both NJPW and AJPW (after his WWF run). He is the most successful foreigner of the 90's in Japan, I would say.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to see the speech if Orndorff inducted Vader, though.
ReplyDeleteHaha, I could see that.
ReplyDeleteNot worth getting bent out of shape about either way, IMO. It's there, and FWIW, it is "the" wrestling hall of fame (as evidenced by TNA tacitly putting it over in the Flair/Abyss feud..which I'm sure they regret now, but hindsight is 20/20). I think it's more necessary than the Rock N' Roll HOF, for crissake.
ReplyDeletefor the best wrestler perhaps, but my understanding is that Veader was DOMINANT in Japan to the point he still makes appearances and gets massive pops, i'm not sure Japenese wrestling fans would still know who the fuck mick Foley is
ReplyDeleteMaybe, but I would bet Simmons is probably more recognizable in the states in the year 2012. I also dont think it is just about better careers either.
ReplyDeleteSome are gonna slip through, you know.
ReplyDeleteThe Damn thing got over. I really only like the first "Damn" when Cena was cutting a promo on Show and KING.... BOOKAH!! on the way to Cyber Sunday 06 i believe champ vs champ vs champ.
ReplyDeleteJust something for discussion....lets say they actually built a hall of fame. What kind of stuff from each inductee would you like to see it it? Some stuff is obvious, (some of Flair robes) but if they wanted to they could come up with some really cool memorabilia to represent each guys career as well as some general WWF stuff, (all the past title belts on display for example)
ReplyDeleteIs Sterling Sharpe in the HOF cuz he was awesome.
ReplyDeleteVader deserves better than a WWE Hall of Fame. Put him in the NJPW Hall of Fame, if such a thing exists.
ReplyDeleteCM Punk tweeted pics of some stuff they have floating around in a warehouse in CT. Looks like they've saved virtually everything. It'd be cool to see some of the old set pieces back in action.
ReplyDeleteI can't find it now, of course, but there used to be a youtube clip of all the legit injuries Vader has been responsible for over the years. It was not short. I'm sure there are plenty of guys who hated working with someone who insisted on being so stiff.
ReplyDeleteThey'd probably get Shawn Michaels to induct him. Man...I wish Vader had beat the snot out of him after his in-match tantrum. Would have been justified.
ReplyDeleteI think he only appeared in FMW over there, which was pretty much the Japanese equivalent of CZW.
ReplyDeleteTrue, but it was funny to me cause it was VINCE saying it ^_^
ReplyDeleteWhy exactly do people consider the WWE HOF illegitimate? Because there's no voting body? If so, that's not really the best reason.
ReplyDeleteSeveral MLB voters are keeping Jef Bagwell out of the HOF simply because he played in the steroid era. There's never been a single shred of evidence that even suggests he was using, except he played in the steroid era. And guys are voting against him. On the other side, lots of people keep voting for Jack Morris to make it simply because he was the "winningest pitcher of the '80s" like it actually means anything.
Look at the list of NFL players who aren't yet in the HOF despite worthy careers. A lot of them are discriminated against because they weren't QBs or RBs. There's currently 29 Modern-Day RBs and 23 Modern-Day QBs in the HOF while there's only 37 OL, 23 LBs, and 23 DBs. Hell, only 3 kickers are in and no other special-teamers are.
Don't even get me started on who gets to vote on these things. Guys who never played. Guys who only wrote about the guys who played. What the fuck qualifies writers to pick the best baseball/football/etc. players? The majority of voters aren't analysts; they're guys who write about what happened. Most of them, when they actually try to be analysts, fail miserably because they have no clue what they're talking about. These are the people who choose your HOFers.
Really, no HOF is legitimate. They're all made-up. Fuck, you could create a 2nd MLB and NFL HOF for all the guys who deserve the honor but haven't received it. Just because you construct a building and put plaques and memorabilia and giant heads in it doesn't make it any more legit than the WWE's HOF. All these HOFs are good for is giving fans something to talk about.
I'm thinking of taking a trip up to Toronto to see Joe Sakic get inducted into the NHL HOF. It's about time I got up there anyway, I've lived an hour away my whole life (even lived in Toronto for a couple months) and have never been there.
ReplyDeleteThat'd be an interesting top 10. Top 10 Gaijins.
ReplyDeleteChris Benoit would be pretty high on my list, not only for match quality but accomplisments as well. Stan Hansen, Vader, Steve Williams, Benoit.
Threadjack but worth it: he's back at his usual address.
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/#!/crankyvince
I won't disagree. You don't mention it here, but I would argue the basketball hall of fame is an even bigger joke than the ones you discuss. They don't even admit who's on the voting panel!
ReplyDeleteI think the WWE Hall is a cool thing for the guys who are inducted, since they get one last moment in the spotlight and the recognition they deserve for what they did for the business. Even Koko, who was at least a memorable jobber to the star. But yeah, it's probably not worth investing much emotion in one way or another on our end about who gets in.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I'm sure Vader will some day, and I'd expect Harley Race to induct him given that he was his manager and everything. Especially if they have a Wrestlemania in Denver, as they always get fit a few regional guys in to a given class.
Come on, you can't put the WWE HOF's credibility problems on par with that of the other sports. Those Halls have their issues (which you detailed), but nowhere near the WWE.
ReplyDeleteKoko B Ware is in but Bruno Sammartino isn't. That's like putting in John Kruk but not Babe Ruth.
I like that the WWE HOF exists cause it gives guys like Koko one last payday and time to shine. But as a pro wrestling geek it sucks that I can't have the arguments I wanna have about guys getting in or not.
Man, 90s HBK was such a prick it wasn't funny. It just shines through in every match (especially in his 96/97 run).
ReplyDeletePresent day Shawn just seems like such a calm, easygoing, nice dude that it's weird to think they're the same person.
Nope, but Shannon mentioned in his HOF speech that he (Shannon) was the *2nd* best athlete in his own family.
ReplyDeleteI've never been but if I was ever going to go it'd be this year for Pavel Bure. Most exciting player I ever saw.
ReplyDeleteWHo wouldve thought, in say 1992 that it'd be Shannon and not Sterling in the HOF. Wow
ReplyDeleteDefinitely -- one of our favorite debates among my friends is Bernie Williams or Todd Helton.
ReplyDeleteIm assuming Jeff Bagwell is more your era than Jack Morris, because Jack Morris was a hell of a pitcher.
ReplyDeleteI'd say neither, but if I had to pick one or the other it'd be Helton. Williams wouldn't even be considered if he didn't play for the Yankees.
ReplyDeleteMorris was a very good pitcher, just not a HOFer. Whether you're a traditionalist or a sabremetrician, he just doesn't measure up as a HOFer compared to his contemporaries. The main arguments in his favor are A) winningest pitcher in the '80s (which really isn't as big an accomplishment as it seems), and B) the '91 World Series.
ReplyDeleteIIRC, didn't Bruno turn down a HOF induction? And apparently over the years, several guys who should be in have turned down inductions for different reasons. That's probably the one big difference between the WWE and other HOFs: no one turns down those.
ReplyDeleteI think that neither has even a 25% chance of making it, but Id pick Williams just for the championships. Helton always seemed like good stats on that bad team where offensive stats are embellished anyway, but other than that no HOF credentials.
ReplyDeleteHate Bernie Williams with a passion. Indians killer.
ReplyDeleteBecause 1, there is no physical building
ReplyDelete2. there IS a more legitimate 3rd party pro wrestling hall of fame WITH a building that puts in Amsterdam New York
and
3. in my case it's not so much who isn't in as who is, for fucks sake Vince Sr.'s Limo driver is in it because (allegedly) he didn't call VKM Junior (seriously, don't know of that rumors true, but it makes as much sense as anything else)
yeah, no one turns down those cause their legitimate halls of fame lol
ReplyDeleteCornys racket, Pauls Cell, Jimmy Harts Megaphone, an NFL FIlms video version of Bruno Sammartino.
ReplyDeleteDusty's tights
Shane's jerseys
Austin's beer cans
Rocky's sideburns
Bonnie "the Dragon" Steamboat
Sable's tits
CM Punks beard from the SxE
The only people who should be able to vote who goes into any HOF is past hall of famers.
ReplyDeleteThe first year should be determined by the leagues commisioner at the time
i'm curious, i know enough about Japenese wrestling to know who Tiger Mask and Black Tiger are, but not enough to know if not including Eddie Guerrero as Black Tiger 2 is an oversight on your list :p
ReplyDeletebut he also mentioned that Backlund, even though being over 60 now, is still in amazing physical shape.
ReplyDeleteSenator Linda is pretty funny as well.
ReplyDeleteOh no definitely not, it was just me throwing out some names to get the juices going.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zvp7oloG-w
ReplyDeleteOwen's cast
ReplyDeleteFoley's ear
The DX tank
Bowtunga's travel mug
The food cart that refused to job to HHH
It's been 15 years, do you still curse the name Edgar Renteria?
ReplyDeleteThe idea of any Hall Of Fame kind of became pointless to me when I read the story about Cal Ripken not getting 100% First Ballot votes
ReplyDelete>ONLY<
Because Babe Ruth didn't.
In all the history of Baseball, no one *ever* gets to be a 100% First Ballot winner for that reason and that reason alone. There will always be some cunty sportswriter that purposely votes no just to be "part of the tradition" of not allowing anyone to have a immaculate voting record.
Fuck this HoF, fuck *all* HoF's.
I think it's more stupid to call it WWE during the time where the name was WWF - dammit! And for me it will always be the WWF. FU wildlife pandas! ;-)
ReplyDeleteI think we need a WCW Hall of Fame. Even if it will be held by WWE. ;-)
ReplyDeleteI just don't see the point of trying to legitimize any hall of fame unless it's run as a completely independent and representative body.
ReplyDeleteOrganizations having their own hall of fame (well, those that are supposed to represent the industry at large) inherently have conflicts of interest and credibility issues.
I think it's fine if the WWE or TNA want to have one, but they should be limited to guys that had substantial careers in those organizations.
Asking for a wrestling HOF to be "legitimate" is sort of a contradiction.
ReplyDeleteI would like Vader inducted just to see his speech in his mask.
ReplyDeleteI really wish people would stop taking the WWE Hall of Fame seriously. It's a gimmick to make easy money during WrestleMania weekend, and then sell some DVDs. No more, no less.
ReplyDeleteThere is a real Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame. It's in upstate New York: http://www.pwhf.org/
Awww... thats low.
ReplyDeleteCZW sucks ass JEEEZUS!!!
You win the award for dumbest comment of 2012. Congrats.
ReplyDeleteI think the biggest reason it's not legit is because it's NOT LEGIT. It's Vince McMahon's plaything to squeeze money of suckers during WrestleMania weekend. It's actually a brilliant con. He's got you good. You're even defending it!
The first thing I noticed when I went to that site is they have a merchandise store. How is their HoF any less of a money making gimmick? Or any HoF for that matter?
ReplyDeleteABSOLUTELY!
ReplyDeleteWe could have had it. I could have died happy knowing that a Cleveland team won any sports championship.
HBK's smile
ReplyDeleteDDP's lost fortune
Ric Flair's wives
Ric Flair's bank account
Ric Flair
HTM' outfits
Warrior's sanity
Maybe its because I missed most of his dominance in WCW but Vader isn't a Hall of Famer to me at all.
ReplyDeleteThey had one.
ReplyDeleteSuch greats as Handsome Harley Race and Gordon Solie... and Angelo Poffo...
Kevin Nash's Quad
ReplyDeleteRock's face tattoo
Scott Hall's liver
Katie Vick's "brains"
Mark Henry's "son"
Vince McMahon's bedpan and catheter
VIRGIL, WRESTLING SUPERSTAR
As for my own "Hall of Fame": Molly Holly.
Excellent response. "I disagree, you're stupid!!" But you forgot to make fun of how fat my mother is, so I'm docking you points.
ReplyDeleteHow is it a "con"? I don't take our imaginary sport so seriously that who ends up in their HOF bothers me. These guys only have the majority of their accomplishments because someone allowed them that opportunity. And just like "real" HOFs, all it really is is something for fans to talk about. There's a reason the inductions are done in the offseason; to keep people talking about the sport.
If Vince really wanted to suck money out of the suckers, wouldn't he A) just build a real building like the other HOFs did, and B) charge more than *$25*? Vince only charges $25 one night a year for the WWF HOF; Cooperstown is $19.50 per adult year-round. $21 for football. $19 for basketball. Seems if Vince was gonna squeeze every last cent out of the fans, he'd follow suit with other sports.
There's more than enough shit WWE screws up to bitch about than the fucking HOF.
Yeah, but CZW (and IWA-MS) stole most of their ideas from FMW, so it's a fair comparison.
ReplyDeleteYou are right, but damn i watch some of those botchamanias with CZW on them and everything looks terrible.
ReplyDeleteRing... fans... the titles... the green boys... just horrible.
Plus they are midgets. I cant fathom fearing somebody like Ruckus. I know people that act just like him.... But bigger...
Wow that would be a great idea for any sport
ReplyDeleteBotchamaina has actually made a couple CZW specials, called CZWamania. What actually struck me watching them was how many people bring little kids to the shows. Someone call CPS!
ReplyDeleteRuckus has one of the best intros I've ever seen. "The Jake the Snake of getting baked, the AJ Styles of Black-and-Milds, weighing in at a street value of 23 million dollars!" Don't know if he still does it, but that shit had me rolling.
I really wish the nba had its own hall of fame. That basketball hof in Springfield, mass sucks
ReplyDeleteOwens cast is my all time favorite wrestling prop
ReplyDeleteC'mon dude. He was a world series mvp and won four rings with the yankees. Helton filled the stat sheet in colorado. I agree with you they are both good but not great but it's gotta be Bernie over todd
ReplyDeleteI'd love to see backlund come back and fight cena. Even though the cena to sting comparison is very apt I think cena is more the new age bob backlund with how he's been pushed
ReplyDeleteYeah I get that kayfabe is dead and buried but shouldn't you have to win at least couple matches before they put you in the hof?
ReplyDeleteHe had a real nice run in wcw. His us title run was close to year and he was always pushed as the top cruiserweight. Plus that angle with Jericho was gold!
ReplyDelete"Maybe it's because I only saw him play with the Wizards, but this Michael Jordan guy is TOTALLY overrated."
ReplyDeleteNot true re: Helton. Coors has helped his numbers, but he has hit extremely well on the road for his career. .290/.390/.476/.866 is nothing to sneeze at. He's not a HOF, but he's not a product of Coors Field.
ReplyDeleteBernie is absolutely NOT a HOFer. The only reason he'd ever be in the discussion is because of the pinstripes. He "won" 4 rings because he played on the team that won 4 rings. Not that he was a bad player, but he was never the cornerstone of the Yankees. He was rarely even the 5th-best player on the TEAM.
FWIW, baseball-reference.com has 4 "tests" they have on every player's page to gauge their potential HOF status: Black Ink, Gray Ink, HOF Monitor, and HOF Standards. Helton is above the "average HOFer" in 3 of the 4 tests. Bernie is above the "average HOFer" in only 1 of the tests and is slightly below it in another. I don't think either is a true HOFer, but Helton deserves in before Bernie.
To me, it comes in second to Bob Orton's cast.
ReplyDeleteand still what does THAT have to do with the fact that the man isn't in the HOF though lol?
ReplyDeleteahh tisk tisk lol!
ReplyDeletelol. And, yeah, Christopher, I used to think the same thing. Trust me...seek out some of his WCW stuff - it's worth it. One of the more unique workers you'll ever see.
ReplyDeleteYes. As a huge NBA fan I was so beyond disappointed the first time I went. I mean, the display cases are full of mislabelings and flat out incorrect information. Shouldn't be the case that a fan knows enough to notice multiple mistakes, but the staff doesn't.
ReplyDeleteRewatching '97 WWF right now and I don't know how he was a face. I HATE watching him. Maybe the backstage stuff has colored my opinion (most likely), but he comes off as such a douche I don't know how he kept so many fans.
ReplyDelete"He was rarely even the 5th-best player on the TEAM."
ReplyDeleteThat says it all right there.
The fact that they have a guy who's biggest accomplishment is getting tombstoned by Kane in the HOF kind of kills it's credibility right there.
ReplyDeleteYes, but it is just strange if a group like the 4 Horsemen is introduced into the "WWE" HOF, even if they never were in the WWF - only as separate single wrestlers or tag teams.
ReplyDeleteNo different than Negro League and AFL players being inducted into the baseball and football HOFs when they never played in those leagues.
ReplyDeleteTo me the most egregious celebrity induction is Drew Carey. I like the guy but damn, he did one appearance ten years prior in the Royal Rumble, who the hell was calling for him to be in it?
ReplyDeleteThey at least try to delineate between celebrities and actual wrestlers. This seems to me like complaining that Bob Uecker is in the Baseball Hall of Fame.
ReplyDeleteI wanted to punch him more than bret when bret cut his first heel promo the night after wm 13......
ReplyDeletewhat about hbk's mythical prosthetic foot???
ReplyDeleteVader doesn't belong in the same freaking sentence as Jordan. More like "Maybe it's because I only saw him in his Heat days, but Antoine Walker totally sucked."
ReplyDeleteVader should be in, but as the first black world champion, Simmons made a bigger impact on the industry.
ReplyDeleteas a bernie williams hater... awesome line.
ReplyDeleteNo, complaining that Jim Ross is in the WWE HOF is like complaining that Uecker is in the Baseball HOF.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Pete Rose should be in the Baseball HOF. So should Joe Jackson. Just saying...
Can't they just induct them in anyway? Axl Rose just turned down the Rock N'Roll Hall of Fame and they put him in anyway.
ReplyDeleteISTR reading that most of Flair's robes have fallen apart, or have disappeared over the last ten years. Plus, i imagine he's probably hocked a few to pay debts.
ReplyDeleteThat's not even "the" independently run wrestling hall of fame. The George Tragos/Lou Thesz Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame in Waterloo, Iowa has been around longer, gets treated as a bigger deal, and has connections to the Cauliflower Alley Club, if I'm not mistaken. They have a lot more credibility than the NY outfit, although they follow that Thesz attitude that mainly shooters get in.
ReplyDeleteOh god, no no no. MLB basically used to do this with the Veterans Committee. 95 percent of the undeserved inductees into Cooperstown are products of guys on that committee voting their old buddies in.
ReplyDeleteLast I heard one of his wacky ideas is to build a legit building.
ReplyDeleteI think out of all of the HOFs, I think the most BS one has to be the RnR HOF.