Hey Scott,
Has the WWE basically flushed money down the toilet like they have with Zack Ryder ever before? I mean the guy was over huge. With the smark and mark fans alike. He was selling a pretty decent amount of merchandise. Which I thought at one time meant something. He was even over with the little kiddies with his bright colors and goofy outfit. Yet they buried him for months until he was just a jobber, and than off TV entirely. And for what reason?
And even after all that he's still over huge. His merchandise might not be selling as well, or at least you don't see it in the live crowds as much (though that could be because why would you wear something for a guy who isn't even going to make an appearance) but he got one of, if not the biggest pops of the night at the PPV on Sunday. And than they were chanting his name TWICE on Raw on Monday. Once during the embarrassing Cindi Lauper segment and than again during the pointless Cena main event. I thought for sure he would come out for at least something. But nope. It was like they did it on purpose. It makes absolutely no sense.
It would probably be better for him if he just left. I don't know what his contract situation is but I imagine TNA would be able to use him in someway. What do you think?
I don't think he's going to leave because he's one of the new generation of guys, along with Dolph Ziggler and Cody Rhodes, who have been so brainwashed by the WWE indoctrination system that they won't speak up for themselves anymore because they think WWE is the only way to make a living in the business. And they're pretty much correct, unfortunately. However, even back in the 90s, guys who had built their own character and brand would feel free to tell a promoter to go fuck themselves if they were getting booked like Ryder, or Cody, or Ziggler was. You think Raven would put up with that kind of bullshit booking for more than a week? He'd quit and do indies to pay the bills for a few months and wait for them to call again. Steve Austin left the WWE high and dry in 2002 and they STILL came crawling back to him over and over. Sable sued them, and WON, because she didn't like her treatment, and they rehired her in 2003 for even more money. Brock Lesnar, need I say more? They're desperate for stars right now and these guys have the perfect opportunity to, frankly, squeeze Vince McMahon by the balls and make their own career, and they're seemingly too scared to do it. You don't think they'd take John Morrison back in a HEARTBEAT right now and probably give him a main event push (as long as he dumped Melina, of course)? I don't know if the problem is that guys like Ryder grew up as fans like us and can't see it as the cold and heartless business that it needs to be in order to make money off it, but Brock Lesnar sure as fuck does and that's why he's where he is and they're where they are.
As best I can figure it, it's like a writer tinkering with his product. It doesn't matter what the fans want—he's going to do what he wants until he produces the final product he's looking for. If ancillary characters get in the way, simply axe them and move on.
ReplyDeleteScott makes a good point though. How many of us would risk (what I assume) is a six-figure salary to get your character over? WWE has shown that they will fire almost anybody to make a point. Hell even Orton is close to getting the axe. While many guys have the option to risk telling Vince to go fuck himself most of them won't because there is little other work and very little other guaranteed money. These guys aren't lacking balls, they're doing what's safe.
ReplyDeleteThe guys make way too much money to leave on their own now. The only guys that have left are ones that have been cashing big checks for many years.
ReplyDeleteFrom the WWE's own site: "WWE’s main roster talent work and travel four and a half days a week with annual compensation ranging from $250,000 to millions."
Im pretty sure that even if Zach Ryder is upset (rightfully so) about his treatment....he's still collecting a paycheck most wrestlers could only dream about.
It will be interesting to see what happens in a couple of years, though, when this new crop of talent (underused guys like Ziggler & Ryder) have enough money in the bank where they don't need to re-sign unless the WWE breaks the bank or, as with Punk, bends over backwards to push them.
Well, if Jericho's book is to be believed, Vince actually likes having his employees stand up to him.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's just because I'm a poor college student(or just common sense) but if I was like a Zack Ryder, Trent Barretta, or Curt Hawkins and rarely to never saw TV time, I wouldn't be complaining when I see that paycheck because I'm still getting to paid to sit on my ass and do nothing. Am I missing something here?
ReplyDeleteI guarantee if Zack Ryder went to TNA, he'd get the Christian push and they'd make WWE realize what their missing out on.
ReplyDeleteAcutally now that I think about it, Christian in 05 and Zack Ryder have parallels.
I'm shocked that they haven't at least given Ryder his own interview block and used him that way. How hard would it be to give him 10-15 minutes to basically serve as a plot device to let other wrestlers do their promos in an interview style segment?
ReplyDeleteThey could even do the viral thing by telling fans to go online to see an extended version of said video!
Agreed. They can treat me like JR for what they pay Ryder if they like.
ReplyDeleteAnyone see the Heat game? What the fuck was Westbrook thinking?
ReplyDeleteYou see the thing is....he wasn't. But I can't give him too much shit, if it wasn't for him OKC would of gotten blow out.
ReplyDeleteDoubt it matter, I think Miami has got this all wrapped up.
I'm gonna call bullshit on the annual compensation ranging from $250,000 to millions.
ReplyDeleteIf that bottom figure is the real number, and let's say it is, WWE isn't paying for transportation or logging for the four nights they're on the road. How much is that taking a bite out of that $250 K?
Let's say you make half that guaranteed in TNA. You move to Flordia and you are basically driving back and forth to work one night a week, plus flying to a pay-per-view three or four times a year. Their house show circuit is pretty much non-existent. But u can take independent bookings as a headliner... Scott is right, these guys are stupid not to tell the WWE to go fuck themselves, they'd be better off.
Exactly!
ReplyDeleteMost wrestling fans have this idea that wrestlers should be more concerned with the "art" of wrestling or being given a proper push based solely on their talents, instead of realizing that it's a job just like any other. Sure, it's a very DIFFERENT job than any of us are likely used to, but it's still a job.
Yeah, as a fan, it'd be nice to see certain guys promoted (or demoted), based either on their talent or connection with the audience, and it definitely does lead to some forehead-smacking when some of the most obvious pushes and depushes never materialize, but I'm sure that Ryder is pretty happy collecting six-figures without worrying about annoying the boss or expanding/perfecting his move-set.
It speaks to a bigger point, though...
ReplyDeleteWhat's the fucking point of shunning someone or depushing someone out of spite?
See: Blonds, Hollywood.
Threadjack, but who else saw Game 4 of the finals? That was MAGNIFICENT. One of the best I've ever seen. Can we question LeBron's heart and drive now?
ReplyDeleteLooks that way. I'm in the camp that hopes LeBron never gets a ring, but fuck it, he's earned it. I wouldn't count OKC out totally though, remember what they did in the last series, and they have 2 of the next 3 at home.
ReplyDeleteThe even more frustrating part is he had a match on Smackdown tonight. Let me get this straight: Raw in Long Island (his hometown) he doesn't appear at all, yet in Baltimore he had a match and wins. I don't get it.
ReplyDeleteOff topic, I am watching Fallon from last night for CM Punk (my hero), and Fallon said he would be headlining the 1,000 episode of Monday Night Raw. Which is hilarious, because when was the last time CM Punk headline anything?
ReplyDeleteTip to future (and current) NBA players: LOOK AT THE PLAY AND SHOT CLOCK BEFORE YOU INTENTIONALLY FOUL SOMEONE! And yes, that's in all caps because I'm yelling. Another tip: if you don't want LeBron to make clutch 3's, don't leave him wide open.
ReplyDeleteThat's how Triple H was brought up.
ReplyDeleteActually, they're including a BUNCH of things in the "compensation package" above and beyond their base salary. Catering, lodging, transportation, any medical expenses incurred... those are all included in the compensation. So Zack Ryder's ACTUAL contract is probably around $80 - $100K a year in monetary value, with anywhere from $100K to $150K (depending on merch sales, whether he gets injured, etc.) being in non-monetary compensation.
ReplyDeleteI thought Zack Ryder was awesome, then I saw him wrestle.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure he'd love TNA without the name Zack Ryder, the Woo Woo Woo You Know It, the Broski, or any of the other catchphrases he doesn't own.
He's getting away with murder with the career he has so far, he should thank his lucky stars anyone even noticed him. I bet *just from the T-Shirts* he makes more than 75% of the TNA roster.
I suspect the reason, besides the money, why guys like Ryder put up with their lousy treatment by management is that they're marks for the WWE. Considering all the shit WWE wrestlers have to eat, coupled with the fairly low chances of actually making it long-term in the organisation, thats the only explanation that makes any sense.
ReplyDeleteOkay, here's a rant.
ReplyDeleteYou've got one of the biggest entertainment conglomerates in the world, with ties to politics, television, Hollywood, social media, and a number of other outlets.
You have millions of people who watch the product, and you use that forum to embarrass, humiliate, and degauss someone, only to reprogram them back in so that they fall in line with everyone else?
I miss the Brian Pillmans of this world.
Not really, the only part that does suck about it is you've paid out of your own pocket to get to the show. If they could plan more than 30 minutes ahead of time and let guys know they don't have to come to this RAW or that SmackDown it would be great.
ReplyDeleteInstead you buy airfare and a rental to get to Kansas City and find out you've been cut.
But yeah what you're saying works for most jobs. Artie Lange used to talk about getting a development deal from Fox and how it was the greatest job ever, he was being paid for 3 years to say no to every shitty show they offered him. He *never left* the house and made 300k a year lol.
Oh jesus, I never even thought of that. The business is getting taken over by a guy who was fairly legitimately held back for no other reason than they couldn't hold back *someone else*.
ReplyDeleteFuck, we're doomed.
I left the bar with 1:11 on the clock.
ReplyDeleteI can't fucking stand Foul-Mania.
Triple H once said in a promo, "Pride before the Fall".
ReplyDeleteWouldn't money supercede pride? I guess, if not...there's your fall.
Just a few guesstimates:
ReplyDeleteRental car: $60/day for 5 days = $15,600/year
Hotel: $120/night = $24,960/year
Flight: $700/week = $36,400/year
That's assuming you're on the road 4 days a week for 52 weeks.
And take out, let's say $70,000 for taxes.
Total: $250,000 - 146,960 = $103,040 net.
So even if they hafta pay a little more in taxes or travel expenses, they still should take home a great amount. And this doesn't include any merchandising or PPV bonuses.
Though for the amount of work they put in and the injury risk, it suddenly seems like a lot less. But if it's what you love to do, even the lowest on the totem pole gets paid pretty damn well.
Oh yeah, the officiating has been brutal throughout the entire playoffs. I expect a few rule changes during the off-season.
ReplyDeleteDamn, Artie would be set for life if heroin didn't exist.
ReplyDeleteZack Ryder has had some pleasantly surprising matches, and you're right, it depends on the opponent...
ReplyDeleteThat said...
The flipside of all of this is taking place now, with Del Rio trying to leverage himself and almost getting ready to quit because of it.
Actually a good thing for him. If he had wrestled on LI he would have lost in some embarrassing fashion.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, that was a very confusing situation. I bet 95% of the players in the league don't know the rules of how a jump ball affects the shot clock. I blame the assistant coaches for not conveying the info.
ReplyDeleteYes, EXCELLENT game. Too bad Harden and Ibaka didn't bother to show up. I don't know if I've ever seen someone as afraid to shoot as harden.
ReplyDelete$60/day for a rental car?! What kind of car are you renting???
ReplyDeleteSeriously though, I bet the totals aren't that high as they probably get a ton of loyal customer discounts. Plus, if they're smart with their taxes and expense food and other expenditures on the road, they could probably get by with paying even less in taxes.
Pillman was my first favorite wrestler after I came back to wrestling as a teenager in '96. His insane rants, his risque angles and interviews, and that hilarious match he had with Owen will live on.
ReplyDeleteThey'd know if they looked at it, it's right there above the net, though you make a good point. To me, it was like all those blooper videos you see of a baseball player tossing the ball to some kid in the crowd when there's only 2 outs.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing is that's how HHH "thought" he was brought up. The clique curtain call happened in mid to late May of 1996. 4 months later he was in a feud with the legendary Mr. Perfect. Within 5 months of the curtain call he was IC champ. Within 13 months, he was King of the Ring. Within 17 months, he was a part of D-X.
ReplyDeleteIn the grand scheme of things, Hunter didn't win King of the Ring (hey, neither did the rest of the entire friggin roster besides Austin that year!) and lost a couple of PPV matches. I'm sorry, but I fail to see that as punishment for a guy who wasn't over at all until he had Chyna with him. Yet, HHH loves and relishes the story of how he paid his dues. Riiiiight.
TLC. Which was the PPV Cena took the night off from.
ReplyDeleteApparently one of the "reasons" Sheamus gets pushed so heavily is that he shows up to shows that he wasn't supposed to be at?
ReplyDeleteI really don't understand the Ryder thing. He was getting over with the webshow but they seemed to be passing it off as just a stupid internet thing. I even remember a Triple H interview where he blows Ryder off as nothing because the internet means nothing...then they finally give in to pushing him. They pal him up with Cena. They give him his big US Title win. He lost a couple of weeks later but they'd given him an out at the time as not being cleared to wrestle. Not that he was booked great during all of this (Cena had to hand him his title shot in the first place) but it seemed like they literally decided out of the blue to tear him down and got right to it. It doesn't seem like their usual bad booking based on stupidity, comes off like a conscience effort to ruin the guy, like he failed a drug test or did something to piss off the wrong people backstage. None of it really adds up.
ReplyDeleteA great example of a guy coming back on his terms is Jericho. From reading his book, it's clear he was never a favorite of Vince's. By the time he left in 2005 he wasn't anything special prior to the Cena feud. Just hanging out as the midcard face who can win the IC title from time to time but is mostly just there doing nothing important. Now he comes and goes when he wants and seems to have a lot more say in his storylines than he did in the past. I said it here before but he's probably the best example of a guy making all the right career moves as just the right time.
Oh definitely. I was just intentionally going above and beyond. They could also get by with cheaper hotels and motels instead of $120/night in most cases. Especially if they go to smaller towns for house shows.
ReplyDeleteMy point is still the same. The WWE says they're paying them $250K, but they're MAKING $100K and that's a big difference.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Ryder's great in the ring, but 1) If a guy is over, has a lack of in ring talent ever really stopped them before? Think of the guys who aren't good OR over that they push because of the look, and the story on John Cena himself in 2003 was that he wasn't very good but was over so they were going to push him and hope the ring work came along. And 2) Why take Ryder, who they weren't pushing, suddenly push him, then suddenly stop?
ReplyDeleteYep. It's a little cliched, but when a guy stands up to him, he turns to him and basically says, "Kid, you got spunk. I like spunk."...or "I respect your gumption, young whippersnapper." That's why Shawn got preferential treatment because he stood up for himself and argued constantly, which led Vince to believe: 1. Shawn's got guts. 2. Shawn cares about the product. Any guy that wrestled in the 90s or early 00s that was over with Vince had similar stories.
ReplyDeleteThe only problem with that nowadays is that Vince is not nearly as present as he used to be. He used to hold one-on-one meetings at TV tapings with any wrestler that wanted to talk, and there'd be a line up and down the hallway. Now, if you want to have a say, you have to complain to an agent, who will pass the word to a writer, who will try to translate it in Vince language, and the message MIGHT get to Vince.
That wouldn't surprise me at all, actually.
ReplyDeleteOff topic, but did anyone read the story today about the heat between Cena and Orton, and that Cena may be pushing for Orton to be fired? The gist of it is that Cena wanted Orton fired in 2006 for failing a drug test, is a massive suck up, and considers himself a "player coach", telling other guys what to do, etc...apparently Orton knew he had enough stroke to call him out at times and stand up to him. I liked Orton already but if true, I like him more. Cena just comes off as someone who thinks he's high and mighty.
ReplyDeleteI think Zack Ryder is a good wrestler. He busts his ass in the ring. Will he have **** classics? No, but as a mid card champion he could have *** matches with every one.
ReplyDeleteThat's what WWE needs really bad, and that's the void Zack Ryder could have filled. An extremely over mid card champion who sells merchandise and gets good reaction. He could have had feuds with guys like Swagger, Ziggler, Cody Rhodes and they could have gotten heat off of him. Then you have more over mid card acts. Instead they took all the heat Ryder had, stuck him with Cena and people gave up. Then he jobbed to Kane and was made Cena's bitch.
Anyone who says Ryder shouldn't be pushed because he can't wrestle is fucking crazy. When has that ever stopped WWE from pushing a guy? Cena, Orton, and Sheamus weren't even close to good workers until after their first World/WWE Title reign. This is a company that has given extended pushes to Ezekiel Jackson, Ryback, and Nathan Jones. Big Show and Kane continue to receive the monster push at least once a year. This really isn't a company where workrate is a consideration.
ReplyDeleteSo there's really no reason not to push the guy.
I think the biggest thing we're not mentioning is health insurance, which the wrestlers pay for themselves. Given their line of work, and their high risk for injury, can you imagine how much they're shelling out?
ReplyDeleteAnd the Raw the night after, where Michael Cole told the viewing audience at home that all the champions in the main event were losers.
ReplyDeleteKen Doane said this on Twitter. Take it with a grain of salt.
ReplyDeleteWWE doesn't see TNA as competition, I don't think, and so even if he did "make them realize what they're missing", they'd probably just chalk it up to "big fish, little pond", wouldn't they?
ReplyDeleteI like your logic: They pushed other pieces of shit, why not this piece of shit?
ReplyDeleteYou like him more for being a suck-up that considers himself better than everyone else?
ReplyDeletePart of me hopes Orton gets fired, only so we can finally start hearing stories about the "real" John Cena.
ReplyDeletePeople are also forgetting that these guys are not employees of the company. They're independent contractors. They're probably losing anywhere from 20-30% of their paycheck to taxes. They also have to pay for their own health insurance, which isn't cheap. You also factor in rental and hotel shares, that adds more. They're also having to pay different gyms every day for use unless they're members of a chain gym where membership can transfer across the country like an Anytime Fitness, and daily use of gyms isn't cheap anymore. It can range from like $30-$50 a day since gyms are now in the business of selling memberships.
ReplyDeleteWhen you factor everything in they're probably losing almost half their paycheck before they have anything they can even touch. Guys like Raven have said in the past that they made more as a high-level indy star than working as a job guy for WWE when expenses were factored in. I doubt that still holds true for him since he almost never works anymore but I could see how that would work for a Low Ki.
The problem, as people have pointed out, is that we have a generation of guys who are so far removed from the territory days that they can't fathom how to succeed outside WWE's system. What happened to guys like Renee Dupree and Ken Doane when they were released? They left the industry. I think that's what guys, especially the ones in their late '20s to early '30s, fear. They invested all this time and effort into establishing a career and now they have to start over again when most people are just starting to settle down.
Right. Lord knows Randy Fucking Orton would be a reliable source with just no axe to grind *at all*.
ReplyDeleteIt's gotta suck being Randy Orton, you're the chosen one with the biggest rocket push ever and you get passed over by a guy who...isn't a drug addict and enormous immature douche. So sad.
They would just bring him back a few years later and treat him slightly better than before.
ReplyDeleteThis. I have no idea what people see in Ryder. Yes, he was over. Yes, I was all for WWE exploiting that, and don't think he deserved to be buried. But how the hell did anyone see him rising any higher than Too Cool/Santino midcard comedy act? He can't work or talk; his promos are all gimmick. You've got Curtis Williams comparing him to '05 Christian. By '05, Christian had already won more titles, and been in more ****+ matches than Ryder will in his entire career, whether he'd been buried or not. Ryder couldn't carry Christian's jock.
ReplyDeleteThis is coming from Ken Doane, who has said he has no issue with Cena and doesn't hate him. Yet all he's done is talk negatively about him (and no one else). Hmm...
ReplyDeleteFunny you should mention Christian, I never understood any of the love the IWC has *ever* had for him.
ReplyDeleteTo me he was just the least noticeable guy in the TLC matches and then he was a dude with the worst name ever. Captain Charisma? That sounds like something you'd call Johnny Ace as an insult, not a name to try to get over as being literal.
Exactly!
ReplyDeleteConsidering the source I'm doubtful of this. But it is an interesting story. And it makes Orton seem more down to earth and "chill the fuck out bro" type of guy. My philosophy has always been to judge what I can see: Their matches and promos. I don't know any of these guys behind the scenes so all I know is their on camera personas. Orton has been one of my favorite wrestlers for a while. I don't care about backstage behavior or rumors because I don't know how much is true.
ReplyDeleteWe are hearing more and more about Cena's "dark side" though.
THIS BUSINESS!!!
ReplyDeleteMost of those accolades came as a tag team with Edge, the Dudleys, and the Hardys. All of which could carry their end of the match. How many ****+ SINGLES matches has Christian had?
ReplyDeleteI guess I should've mentioned this, but I don't love Christian either. He's perfectly competent in the ring and on the mic, but not especially great at anything. Which is fine, there's an important place for guys like that, as Christian's career is testament to. And yet I still maintain that Ryder couldn't carry his jock. That's how much I think of Ryder.
ReplyDeleteIt was meant to be funny originally. Remember when Jericho had GM power for the night and actually made Christian wrestle in a superhero outfit as "Captain Charisma?"
ReplyDeleteIt's just one of those things that eventually stuck for some reason and now it's treated as serious, when it was originally meant as ridicule. Kinda like John Cena's jorts.
poe's law... i think...
ReplyDeleteThey pushed other pieces of shit, why not that piece of shit that's *already over*?
ReplyDeleteNot really, although now that I know the history of the awful name I guess I can't hold it against him.
ReplyDeleteEven ignoring that, he's still the least memorable guy from the TLC matches that has competent matches but isn't interesting at all to me.
I was shocked that he ever came back to WWE and then I was even more shocked when they sort of pushed him as someone remotely main-event.
I'll just never understand the love.
He's not over enough to deserve a push over any other talent on the roster.
ReplyDeleteHe's absolutely over enough to be on television with segments repeating his four "hilarious" catchphrases and nothing more.
Once people get/got tired of "Woo Woo Woo" what else is there to the guy? I wouldn't buy Ryder going over anyone other than the people that Santino goes over, people like Ricardo or Hornswoggle.
And we wonder why they don't draw... well, we don't.
ReplyDeletePunk said it best, Vince is a millionaire who should be a billionaire.
We're hearing more and more about his "dark side" from a total *NOBODY* that has every reason in the world to try to get heat for himself by leeching some of the biggest name currently wrestling.
ReplyDeleteIs anyone arguing he could be a main event draw? I think most people understand he's unlikely to ever be more than a midcard act. And that's exactly what he was.
ReplyDeleteHis character's staying power is irrelevant to the discussion because he *was* over and the heat didn't die down *until* he was treated like a jobber. People were still with him until he lost the US title, never got a rematch, got his ass kicked by Kane 84 times, never got revenge, got screwed over by Eve, never got revenge, got screwed over by Eve AGAIN, never got revenge, got screwed over by Cena, and never got revenge. They turned a lovable loser who finally persevered into...just a regular old loser.
Even if his character has a shelf life, RIDE IT OUT. If people care (which they did), who gives a shit if they won't care in 2 months? RIDE IT OUT. Make whatever money you can for 2 months, *then* shunt him down the card. It's just ridiculously stupid to destroy an over act before it gets stale.
Two things:
ReplyDelete1) Who should they push instead? I mea, the guy's getting chants on Raw despite the utter lack of TV time, who else is getting that? They aren't chanting for Damien Sandow or Kashius Ohno on Raw, but they're getting pushed (allegedly). They damn sure aren't chanting for Kane in segments he's not on (or is on for that matter), but he's still getting pushed. And as we've seen a bunch, there's just a huge vacuum of guys getting pushed to begin with (or pushed for a week until the writers/Vince forgets). So if not Ryder, who?
and...
2) at the end of '97, The Rock was stupid sideburns and an elbow. NOBODY thought the Rock was anything special. If you build a time-machine and post on RSPW that The Rock is going to be the biggest thing ever in the history of ever, you'd be laughed off there. Or HHH for that matter. But they pushed them both until they mattered, and in the case of the Rock until they were the biggest thing ever in the history of ever.
Scott wrote an article once, way back when, about how you never know where that next big star is going to come from. Like at the end of 96, you wouldn't have thought 5 years later The Rock and Steve Austin would be headlining the biggest show ever.
But the big star won't come from cutting the guy's legs out from under him before he really has a chance to get started.
And I'm no big Zach Ryder apologist. I'm just saying, you've gotta push somebody. Ryder's over... it's like starting with a head start.
Just remember, he doesn't harbor any ill will towards Cena. Nope, not at all. Cena just so happens to be the only guy who does bad things behind-the-scenes when Doane is around. And he'll tell us all about it in his upcoming EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW!!
ReplyDeleteYou could have said the same thing about John Cena in 2003.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, fuck Orton. If there's one person who could have a grudge against Cena, it's Orton. If it wasn't for the Doctor of Thuganomics Orton would've been the undisputed guy on top for the last eight years.
ReplyDeleteIf you're on the lower side of compensation in WWE, you're probably better off in TNA where you make half the money but do s fraction of the work and in a state with no income tax. Lots of these guys would be way better off in TNA. It's probably an ideal situation for a guy like Orton.
ReplyDeleteYeah what is the deal with Ken and Cena? He says there's no heat between them, but then he promises a big interview to reveal other deep dark secrets about Cena and even name drops Cena's estranged wife.
ReplyDeleteAmazing how even in monster games, Westbrook finds a way to make terrible decisions.
ReplyDeleteWhen he passed up the open 11-footer then missed a point blank layup a few minutes later, it was easy to tell that pressure wasn't turning Harden into a diamond, as Bob Horry would say.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't say Orton received the biggest rocket push ever. Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold, John Cena, Brock Lesnar all got way bigger pushes than Orton did. Sure being in Evolution was very advantageous and was a big push but all those other guys I listed got bigger pushes.
ReplyDeleteBasically he claims Cena fucked Mickie James while she was engaged to Doane and this led to Doane losing his job and James getting a push. But James wanted to date Cena (who didn't) so she was de-pushed and ultimately lost her job. This apparently happened before Cena was married FWIW.
ReplyDeleteIf this is true, he has a reason to be pissed. But if it is true, it also instantly taints all of his allegations on anything else. He has a reason for Cena to look bad, whether it's accurate or not. And him claiming he has no ill will towards Cena but then not saying anything bad about anyone else certainly points to Doane having an axe to grind.
Ride out the shelf life...and then when people strt booing turn him heel! More money!
ReplyDeleteI would say based on how big a push they received compared to how big a push they deserved, Orton tops them all.
ReplyDeleteOrton also won the IC title in his first year and the world title in his 2nd (and also became the youngest world champ in WWE history). Maybe not the biggest push overall, but I think he received the 2nd-biggest push ever to start a career (behind only Lesnar).
"Kid, you got spunk. I like spunk."
ReplyDeleteFUCK YOU.
Actually the last thing you could say he 'headlined" the May 7, 2012 episode of Raw.
ReplyDeleteHis fair share. His series with Orton just last year springs to mind. Look, in 10 years time Ryder could very well be the worker that Christian is today. I don't even think Christian's a particularly great worker.
ReplyDeleteLook, we're not really arguing. I don't think WWE should've buried Ryder. It's bad business. But WWE does 20 things a night that qualify as bad business. And since I don't get any aesthetic pleasure out of watching Ryder, his burial is pretty far down my list of gripes. There are more talented and deserving guys being mismanaged on a nightly basis for me to lose too much sleep over Ryder.
THAT should be the blogs tagline.
ReplyDelete"We're telling stories... " is lame. Like Sober Ryan Murphy posting - lame.
Ryder falls into the same boat as so many other guys for me. Morrison, Truth, Dolph, Kofi, Bourne, Clay, etc.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if I really believe these guys can carry PPVs in the main event. I have no idea if they can sustain any sort of real run on top. BUT... I just want to find out.
Push someone. Anyone. I honestly don't think Ryder is the next big thing, but I'd so rather see them take a shot with him instead of seeing Cena-Kane or Cena-Big Show or Cena-Evil GM -- or especially the "main event" TV tag matches we've been getting for months -- over and over and over.
I was stoked with the brief rocket push they gave heel R-Truth last year. I dug his character, he got a chance to get over and it felt fresh. Take a shot.
I mean, if you're going to have Ryback squash four guys at a time -- why not just give him a match with Sheamus? Announce it for the next week's Smackdown and see what happens.
didn't The Miz himself talk about that was basically the way he got his push? by walking straight up to McMahon on an airplane?
ReplyDeleteon the other hand the WWE had a pretty big influx of "indie wrestlers" during the last years (recent examples like Claudio Castagnoli, Tyler Black and others) that have been wrestling in independent promotions for years and surely wouldn't have any problems returning to the those as even bigger stars.
ReplyDeleteI didn't even know Ken Doane and Mickie James were ever together. Also never knew about Mickie/Cena. Shows how much I know about the backstage dealings. That explains Piggie James I guess lol.
ReplyDeleteDo you know he also said "THIS BUSINESS!!!"
ReplyDeleteOf course you don't "buy" that they can carry a PPV because they're underutilized and newer wrestlers. They should have a regular rotation on the mid-card of characters week in week out, like has happened in the past (it's not rocket science) of guys fighting for the IC and US titles. Part of the problem is this stupid 2 brand crap and too many titles no one cares about (US Title/World Title). Go back to the concept of good stories and fewer titles, worked for decades and created superstars.
ReplyDeleteUnless Zack has dramatically improved since challenging Christian for the ECW title, he can't go in a match longer than 10 minutes. He's perfect in the role they have him in now - a loveable goof who doesn't have to worry about working more than a few minutes.
ReplyDeletePretty sure Morrison's still around since he makes occasional appearances on Z!.
ADR has the benefit of having made good money in Mexico before, and being able to go back there as a former WWE superstar and basically being able to be the biggest star in Mexico. They have no hold on him. Which makes him interesting in a way, although apparently he's using that leverage to duck out of doing jobs.
ReplyDeleteHi Colt Cabana!
ReplyDeleteBut the problem is that he cant go back as Dos Caras, they will boo the shit out of him.
ReplyDeleteNow that could work in his favor after being one of the biggest faces of the 2000s, maybe a heel run in Mexico could rejuvenate him.
But as far as being the USA, his time has come and gone. I was really high on him on SD. The move to RAW literally killed him #Coleism
TONS. Seriously from month after month in TNA Christian was tearing it up in the ring. putting on **** star bouts up and down the card.
ReplyDeleteAnd even when he came back he was putting up stars against Swagger on ECW, the he went to SD and put up stars against Orton.
LIke really, i would say for my moneys worth Christian has been the most consistent upper mid/main eventer in wrestling on PPV since 05.
Yeah, as independent contractors, they can right off a ton of travel and car expenses. I have a friend who flies everywhere for a consulting firm -- he gets some pretty good discounts and perks.
ReplyDeleteAn Air Force buddy of mines grew up with Randy Orton and said he was a typical "bro". He went to his first match in the St Louis area and told my friend he was nervous.
ReplyDeleteBut that was of course more than a decade ago.
Considering they've botched his character for a year-and-a-half, I would think the incentive to stay is minimal. Still amazes me that Vince likes ADR based on the fact that "he looks like he can kick my ass", then doesn't book him to kick anyone's ass.
ReplyDeleteNot like you cared but It was sooooo obvious he was fucking her.
ReplyDelete-Mickie goes from middling in the divas dvision to out of nowhere champ. BAM!
-Then defends it on RAW a couple of times in some really contested bouts with time.\
-then there was this one off kiss her and cena had.
(this is when it springs to my mind that they are fucking. cuz it was so random. they had no dealings with another and in a backstage skit, they kiss. and nothing is said about it again)
ok, then some weeks pass and mickie jobs the title, no bigz, business as usual, but then she gets moved to smackdown as well. ok no bigz either.
then they start the piggie james thing, sucks cuz she is my kinda white girl. fat booty, down to fuck. not fat at all.
anywho, she goes over and then everything comes together.
cena gets married, james is released.
everything i said, makes perfect sense.
she fucking cena, she gets the tv time and put on a pedastel cuz of the stroke. cena aint fucking her, she drops the strap, moved to tuesdays out of cenas (pubic) hair and buried on the way out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY6fp95uGfM
ReplyDeleteStep 1: Debut Wrestler
ReplyDeleteStep 2: ?????
Step 3: Give him the World title.
lol wut?
ReplyDeleteThe WWE pays for the hotels, flights & cars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUR7BzEvXmA
ReplyDelete1. you win.
ReplyDelete2. i love these guys, just young looks like cena and titus is too big to be wearing trunks.
Zach lives in my town. Great guy. Believe me it's the backstage politics. HHH hates him! Can't stand that he got himself over and yes it is a punishment. He's a company man, does everything by the book, just wants to make them $, never a drug issue, and still they bury him when all he is trying to do is make them $.
ReplyDeleteOh brother, more whining about this goof? He got huge pops because they were in his hometown!
ReplyDeleteThere is no reason that Ryder cant get the same treatment as Santino. He is ten times the worker, although slightly less entertaining.
ReplyDeleteWrestling used to be "Hey, people are cheering for this guy. Let's put him in more matches and have him win." Now backstage politics and a myriad of other bullshit have gotten away from that simple truth. Who cares if his wrestling ability isn't the greatest? Does he put butts in the seats, that's all that should matter.
ReplyDeleteAsk Verne Gagne how well not pushing someone who was cheered due to politics and claims that the guy had no wrestling ability. Gorilla Monsoon said it best, "If you're not in this business to make money, then you're a fool."
Regarding Morrison, not only do I expect that he'll be rehired, but he's (finally) going to take the stop to become a main eventer. He recently did Cabana's AOW podcast and spoke about how he's taking improv and acting classes to improve his promo skills, stage and stunt fighting classes with film stuntmen, etc. He also came across REALLY well and as a very intelligent guy. You have to love the foresight that goes into that sort of preparation - if he can translate that to TV there's no reason why Morrison, one of the most naturally gifted guys they've had on the roster in the past 15 years, can't vault to the top of the card.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, this has been a topic that has been beat to death, and ultimately it comes down to this.
ReplyDeleteObviously the guy has some level of popularity outside of your typical mid to lower card wrestler. For some reason, the powers that be (can't believe I just used that) either think he's not ready, or don't believe he should have a more prominent position on the card. He hasn't quit or bitched about it (that we know of) so it's not changing. I just don't see the point of even bringing it up anymore lol. Until Zack Ryder does something about it, then it is what it is.
Wow that sounds really cranky lol, but I"m not sure how else to put it. I wish someday we could get some inside information on the WWE's reasons for ignoring the crowd support he gets.
It really makes no sense that you, being one of the people who is constantly whining about people not letting things play out before making a judgment, is dismissing the fact that Ryder was on to something before they decided to make him look like a goof. What would have been wrong with them building on the momentum he had gained?
ReplyDeleteTEN TIMES? No way. He's slightly better in the ring and not nearly as good on the mic.
ReplyDeleteClay? Really?
ReplyDeleteZack can be carried to a good match, Santino can't be.
ReplyDeleteWith a company desperately trying to make new stars, why not let a guy who gets a reaction get some TV time.
What about a few months back when he was getting pops in every arena they went to? Now, I'm not talking about Cena level pops or anything, but he was still cleary over-WITH NO HELP FROM THE COMPANY ITSELF.
ReplyDeleteNo one(or no one sane anyways) is saying he should win the world title. But the WWE had a chance to cement him as a good midcard/upper mid act. Instead, they threw away that opportunity-and the money they could have gotten off merchandise.
It makes sense to me because I never gave a shit about Ryder and would never pay to watch him.
ReplyDeleteI'm dismissing still talking about it because it is obvious that his push has stopped, and beating this topic to the ground won't change that. I think possibly they could have kept pushing him and he would have been a solid jobber to the stars but they didn't.
But claiming they never lost more money than what they did with Zack Ryder? Bahahhaha, Santino is over like crazy, does that mean anyone would ever pay a dime to watch Santino? No.
05 Christian was awesome. I actually always felt that Edge was the better wrestler but Christian was the more entertaining one of the pair. Their stuff with Angle and Foley was hilarious and I always thought Christian was the funnier one.
ReplyDeleteThan he really was breaking out with the Peeps stuff and the Captain Charisma thing really worked for the kind of annoying heel character he was playing. The current Christian is nothing like that character.
But much like Ryder he got over on his own so the WWE cut his legs out from under him. It was very similar to Daniel Bryan where the smarks crowds would cheer for him even though they weren't supposed to. He was smart enough to walk when they started burying him but I never felt he got that heat back again.
I say the same thing about John Cena NOW.
ReplyDeleteSo you acknowledge that Ryder could have maybe been something. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteThe anti-smarks will tell you it's because Ryder is poopy.
ReplyDeleteI just mean in that they brought back every name with any rub whatsoever to job to him.
ReplyDeleteCena wasn't a "Legend Killer", is all.
Ken Doane is a fucking no one, that's his deal with Cena.
ReplyDeleteHas Ohno made it to TV yet? I haven't been paying a ton of attention lately, especially to SD.
ReplyDeleteExcept that his character had places to go, places we're still hoping it goes almost ten years later (heel turn/back to rapper).
ReplyDeleteI think Ryder absolutely deserves a spot on TV, just not pinning anyone with a chance of actually drawing money.
It doesn't add up--he's "over" enough with select crowds, to the points of signs, merch, and chants. And he has an on-screen association with Cena. Hell, this could've been R-Truth last year or so, minus the general crowd overness. And he still got a push and what passed for a PPV main event. It's just a watered down Hogan-Orndorff all over again, really. Why wouldn't you want to xerox copy a huge money drawing storyline from 25+ years back?
ReplyDelete(I know; Cena's no Hogan and Zack's certainly no Orndorff, but it's a damn sight better than a whole handful of stunted storyline stubs that add up to jack shit)
There's some truth to that, I will agree. I just can't for the life of me figure out what people see in him. He offers nothing but a horrible catch phrase that will *especially* mean nothing when Jersey Shore goes off the air (I assume that's supposed to be a Jersey Shore type character, I've never seen the show but that's what I've read)
ReplyDeleteThe Rock wasn't a ripoff of some television show. The Rock could also wrestle.
If he's beating Kane to get his "push" or whatever, fine. Kane's done anyway. I just don't see the point in pushing a comedy act over anyone worth a shit.
You guys would be losing your fucking minds if they were putting Santino over someone with credibility, I'm not sure why everyone supports Ryder doing the same.
"He recently did Cabana's AOW podcast and spoke about how he's taking
ReplyDeleteimprov and acting classes to improve his promo skills, stage and stunt
fighting classes with film stuntmen, etc."
that's what I have been wondering for so long: why haven't others done stuff like that? (at least that's the first time I hear about one (ex) WWE employee making the extra effort to succeed in that area as well (in contrast to dozens of stories of guys competing in other promotions to become a better in ring worker).
disagree. the matchups between Daniel Bryan and Santino say otherwise.
ReplyDeleteI am almost SURE that if Santino got the right chances, there would be plenty of people paying to watch him.
ReplyDeleteRyder's character debuted prior to Jersey Shore IIRC.
ReplyDeletethe last part is the most stupid and sad about this. the WWE wouldn't be doing him a favor and not gaining something from it: if he starts to sell tickets, too (and move more merch) he makes money for the company! there really is no reason for them not to let him earn money for them. is that promotion really THAT stupid?
ReplyDeleteReally? You felt the guy rapping to cardboard cutouts of Ludacris and Jay-Z had places to go?
ReplyDeleteAhh, ok. I have no idea honestly it just seems to fit right in with that new-school "Look How Fucking Stupid I Am!" thing that the kids are into now lol
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. People loved that character from the start, so much so that almost a decade later the IWC is BEGGING for it to come back.
ReplyDeleteAlso, any rap is more interesting than "Woo Woo Woo" followed by exactly nothing.
Morrison was NEVER good. Miz was always better/more interesting than Morrison, who's "charisma" revolved totally around being the sort of cliched "top guy" out of Vince's wet dreams.
ReplyDeleteMorrison was basically Edge if Edge was a worthless, uncharismatic tree. At least Miz had the ability to show some semblence of range of emotion, Morrison's default mode of emotion was "smug jerk with no personality".
And no fucks were given that day...
ReplyDeleteMy six year old would pay exactly one dime to see Santino.
ReplyDeleteYou would put Santino over your top stars? He can't even work a match longer than 5 minutes.
ReplyDeleteUh...Cena's character was pushed because: a) golden boy already chosen for success; b) the fans were popping like mad for his inane shtick. Ryder has one of those qualities and not the other. Hmm...
ReplyDeleteWhat is so bad about "woo woo woo" anyways? I watch Z! from time to time and he seems like a fun, laid back guy that has an amusing, self-deprecating sense of humor. Who knows whether he will be the next Rock, and who cares? You don't start a push with "will he be the biggest star ever? If not, fuck him!". You start with "he is over, let's push him and see where he takes us".
Gimmicks are the beginning of stronger characters, but Ryder never got the chance to go anywhere with it. Then again, we should have known he was done when he was put in a program with the heat-sucking machine that is John Cena. Cena is like some life-absorbing creator that uses the overness of others to maintain his own middling popularity. Like Triple H!
So THAT's George RR Martin's thought process.
ReplyDeleteRight, Ryder has one thing and not another. You answered your own question.
ReplyDeleteWhat's so bad about "Woo Woo Woo"? The fact that it doesn't lead to anything. It's the sum total of Zack Ryder's charisma.
Billy Gunn yelled Suck It too *AND* had a much better look *AND* was much better in the ring yet people fucking hated the fact that he got a push.
He's a comedy act. He's fucking lucky he makes the money he does for the level of talent he has. I'm sure the man himself is pleased as punch to be where he's at, it's only the IWC (who probably sees something familiar in a guy that has one good line and nothing more to offer) that thinks he should be more than he is because...people in his hometown chant for him.
The Elimination Chamber? The end was good between Santino and Bryan but that was like 4 minutes long. The following night Santino lost to Bryan in under a minute. What toher match-ups were there between the two?
ReplyDeletePeople that cheer for Ryder because he says "Woo Woo Woo" remind me of the guys in Shawshank cheering for "that thing she does with her hair" during the film scene.
ReplyDeleteCena was a comedy act. "You can't see me." is probably true dumbest catch phrase in in the history of catch phrases.
ReplyDeleteJust because Cena is a big star and Doane isn't in wrestling anymore doesn't mean what Doane says can't be true. I could be the biggest asshole in the world. It doesn't mean you're not to, you know? (Not calling you an asshole, you know what I mean)
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't mean it's not true.
ReplyDeleteZack Ryder is no John Cena. John Cena can do more than three moves and speak more than three words. And he could do it before he ever entered the business, let alone three years into being on television.
ReplyDeleteIf Zack Ryder wants a push maybe he should be better at every single aspect of the business than he is now (like John Cena was before he ever got pushed).
I'll never get it. When the IWC latches onto the tips of the workrate guys I get it, at least they have something to offer.
Well sure, but I'll wait to hear it from *ANYONE* that doesn't have a deep-seated jealousy of the guy.
ReplyDeleteOf course, it helps that the IWC desperately wants to hate the guy because...he hasn't been directed to change his character yet.
But no seriously, the internet's totally onto the work.
Wow...You really have it out for Ryder... I guess he can never compete with the brilliance of raising one eyebrow, or the middle finger. After all, those things "go somewhere" (whatever that means). Then again, I am trying to argue with someone that has a complete intimate understanding of not only the "smarky" crowd psyche, but the "average" crowd psyche as well. With those insights, any other argument seems ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned below that Ryder was like Billy Gunn. But, I don't see any similarities. Ryder made his own push, with his own effort, his own ideas, his own motivation, everything came from him. This is EXACTLY what we wrestling fans seem to always be calling for. Cornette and Ross talk endlessly about these things and yet, when it happens and is sunk by lame ass politics, I am supposed to buy that the person wasn't going anywhere anyways? Or that is catchphrase wasn't good enough, so fuck him? I just don't get it.
You mention "going somewhere," but to me Ryder has more long term story potential than most. He used Z! to create a world around his family, friends, goals, etc. He provided us with intimate (staged) access into his life and that makes him both more likeable and relatable than John Cena's facade.
Dear god! I am not even a big fan of Ryder. I like what he represents more than what he is; but, hot damn, he represents the potential for young wrestlers to get themselves over in ways that weren't available back in the day - and he succeeded! Gotta respect that.
This. Christian's last 6 months or so in the WWE in '05 before he bolted to TNA were awesome. As was the ORIGINAL "Just Close Your Eyes" entrance theme that has been replaced with an incredibly lamer version.
ReplyDeleteNot really, I just think it's adorable that you guys seem to think he's the second coming because some smarky crowds chant for him. You're right though, he is NOWHERE NEAR the brilliance of an eyebrow or a middle finger and it's FUCKING HILARIOUS that you guys keep comparing him to Cena/Rock/Austin.
ReplyDeleteBilly Gunn made his own push too. He was put into a tag team because they had nothing else to do with him or Jesse James, they got themselves over. Their story is exactly the fucking same EXCEPT thew IWC latching onto Ryder's dick and not Billy's. (Also, Billy was better in the ring)
All those things you mentioned about Ryder being "more likable and relatable than the John Cena facade" (uh oh you're bias is showing) don't matter to me because I've never seen them. If it's not on television it doesn't count. I don't give a shit what some guy does with a YouTube channel just like I don't think Colt Cabana is someone we should be paying attention to because he has a podcast. If you want me to give a fuck about you as a wrestling, DO SOMETHING IN THE WRESTLING BUSINESS.
The last part you have exactly right. He succeeded. He already did. He's made more money this year from shirts than he probably ever figured he'd make in his whole career. There is no reason to continue pushing this one-note act. He already got everything he wanted.
Only the IWC thinks "not being on TV" = "not successful". Zack Ryder measures his success the same way all of us do, money, and he's got plenty of it.
Uh, he was referring to Orton's comments about Cena.
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me of Hogan saying in every mainstream interview he's done in the last few years that he's over Linda and never thinks about her, then he proceeds to spend 80% of said interviews complaining about her.
ReplyDelete" I liked Orton already but if true, I like him more. Cena just comes off as someone who thinks he's high and mighty."
ReplyDelete"You like him more for being a suck-up that considers himself better than everyone else?"
Uh...I know.
This is a textbook example of the iron law of institutions: people in charge care more about their power within an institution than the power of the institution itself. If Zack Ryder is able to get himself over without the help of the writers, it suggests that the writers aren't that valuable. So the writers do everything they can to cut him off at the knees.
ReplyDeleteAnd by "going somewhere" I mean (because apparently you're dense) when you flip someone off...they want to fight you.
ReplyDeleteWhen you say "Woo Woo Woo" to someone...they just think you're a fucking retarded chump.
And that's probably why he's not pushed. His genius "built himself" character is just left of Eugene.
Wait. You know what Zack Ryder is thinking too? Holy crap man! Are you his brother or something?
ReplyDeleteI just want to clarify some things. Those that cheer Ryder are "smarky" crowds and thus illegitimate measures of his popularity. You have no effective way of qualifying a "smarky" crowd OTHER THAN their support of Ryder (or anyone else you don't like, I assume). You then claim that because you don't watch his show, it doesn't matter, thus deligitimizing the means by which Ryder got over. So, if those that cheer him are illegitimate, and the way he got over is illegitimate, Ryder must not really be over. Then, as a final support, you claim knowledge of Ryder's goals and aspirations. After all, if Ryder doesn't want to be pushed, then who am I to desire such a push.
I am stumped. I have no idea who the "IWC" is, who "smarky" crowds are, or what Ryder is thinking. I just know the guy was/is legitimately over and runs a fun (sometimes aimless and silly) online program that is keeping him over in lieu of TV time. I can only represent my own opinion, but Ryder seems worthy of some attention to me.
As for Cena (since you implied my bias), yea, I don't like him. Mostly because I don't actually know what he has done to deserve a decade of top billing. But, I don't whether Ryder is worthy of it, either. Either way, I see more story line potential in the latter than in the former at the moment.
Wait. You know what Zack Ryder is thinking too? Holy crap man! A 170+ reply thread that is built on the idea that he can't be happy with his push or position...WHAT ARE YOU ALL OF YOU HIS BROTHER OR SOMETHING?
ReplyDeleteCute how that idiot logic works both ways eh?
I'm sorry, if people that don't GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to find his YouTube channel aren't "smarks" then what are exactly? His support is, by it's very definition, smarky BECAUSE THEY HAD TO GO OUT OF THEIR WAY ON THE INTERNET to find out anything about him. Ta~da! Logic!
It's only keeping him over with people that give a fuck enough about wrestling to go look for extra wrestling content on the internet. Those people are called smarks. You may call them whatever you want if it makes you feel like you have an argument.
This is the first thing I've read regarding this that makes sense of Zack's weird depush.
ReplyDeleteI don't remember saying that he thinks he deserves more. In fact, I am trying hard to avoid it. Still, history is not devoid of wrestlers jumping from one organization to another in spite of a comfortable salary in order to enter a situation where they perceive more upward mobility. So, it is not out of the question that Ryder would be such a person. Perhaps $200,000/year doesn't equal happiness for him? I don't know, but I am sure you do.
ReplyDeleteAnd frankly, I don't know nor care what a smark is. Also, what's the significance of being a smark? I take it is a bad thing, as is being part of the IWC. But you have over 1000 posts on a blog dedicated to and run by one of the original smart marks. So, you must be a smark. But, you hate Zack Ryder, so does that mean you are not one? And lots of people on here seem unimpressed with Ryder, so what is the consensus among smarks?
And who the hell pays a bunch of money to go to wrestling live, or spend $60 a month on PPV that doesn't give a fuck about wrestling? Wouldn't the willingness to purchase tickets indicate some level of smarkdom? In that way, every crowd is a smark crowd... At any rate, your argument is based more on stereotypes of fans than it is on any kind of analysis or consistent method. It's very hard to argue with a tautology.
"You guys would be losing your fucking minds if they were putting Santino over someone with credibility..."
ReplyDeleteI, for one, would not lose mind. In fact I lose my mind when they give a guy who's clearly over the US title (for MONTHS now) and they job him anyway. He's already over. PUSH HIM and see what happens. He could be good. But we're never going to know if they don't stop treating everyone other then HHH, Cena, Orton, and Punk like a joke.
Why this post doesn't have 162 likes is beyond me.
ReplyDeleteSorry, but you're not really making an argument for why it was correct to halt Ryder's push and have him turned into a pathetic goofball. What you're doing is extrapolating your opinion of Ryder, who you do not like, and coming up with reasons why he wouldn't have gotten over if he had a sustained push, as if the majority of wrestling fans share your distaste. Some of the reasons you've come up with are contrived, like "those are smarky, irrelevant fans who were cheering for him.
ReplyDeleteIf you're argument is based on a whole lot of conjecture, then it's not going to hold up.
Damnit Dave, stop saying what I am in a more coherent and concise manner!
ReplyDeleteActually on reading that I think they mean that *Cena* is the suckup and the guy that considers himself a "player coach". Hence why they then write after that that Orton felt he could call him out on it.
ReplyDeleteI agree with that. Say what you want but ryder is over. Personally I couldnt give two shits about the guy though. He's scotty 2 hotty at best. But no doubt in late 2011 he was mega over
ReplyDeleteMiz is absolute shit in the ring and can't work a match longer than six minutes.
ReplyDeleteBack in my day we had a name for those types of people....managers.
Oh. Weird I took it the other way.
ReplyDeleteWell, Cena actually has every right to be a player coach since he's the biggest star currently in the business but the suckup part is annoying no matter who it is.
He's not going to get over because he didn't get over as any more than what he is, a one note comedy act.
ReplyDeleteArgue that point. You can say "oh well you hate him so you're making up reasons" but how exactly is he worth more than what I say he is?
What does he have to add other than "Woo Woo Woo" and his T-Shirt? He's Ron Simmons in 2002 and you guys want him to be a feature player, lmao.
Personally I wish they'd have explored more of the Santino/Brodus duo, that could have been alot of fun.
ReplyDeleteThe blog is based on the idea of all of us commenting on what we think the wrestlers are thinking. I'm glad for the purpose of this thread and this thread only you're choosing to ignore that.
ReplyDeletePerhaps $200,000/year doesn't equal happiness for him? Are you retarded?
This whole thread is based on the idea of everyone knowing that he wants more TV time. Yourself included. Your ENTIRE ARGUMENT is based on the idea that he can't be happy with where he is, but *I'm the cunt* because I'm pretty sure he likes being rich.
I didn't say there was significance to being a smark. I said that's what his fan base is made of, because they're from the internet. And then you...agreed with me by calling all of us smarks...well that was certainly...something.
Princess where have u been all my life?!?! that was hilarious.
ReplyDeleteDANIEL BRYAN can make you look good with no training in "THIS BUSINESS" imagine what he can do with someone with a basic knowledge of how to construct a wrestling match for 4 minutes?
ReplyDeletewhoa i think u have it wrong, the anti anti smarks who hate ryder, the anti smarks love him while the smarks are indifferent.
ReplyDeletethe marks spend money.
Flushed money away? Anyone who was a big enough fan to buy his merch will continue to do so, and he isn't a big draw. He's a lovable midcarder.
ReplyDeleteErr... In my reading of the initial email, nothing was said about whether or not Ryder thought he deserved more. Scott hypothesized why more wrestlers aren't standing up for themselves (a sociological, not personal inference) and most of us are simply wondering what might have caused him to be depushed so severely - again, little to do with his personal preference.
ReplyDeleteAt any rate, as I said, many wrestlers have made economically risky choices for greater creative soil to grow in. Furthermore, financial security would not, as I understand myself and others, be the sole basis for happiness. This guy went into an industry that involves long term physical harm, risks of drug abuse, long travel schedules, etc. He could have gotten an accounting degree and made similar money.
Again, I don't KNOW his thoughts, and you might be right about his financial motives. But no one hear seems to care what his motives are (as I don't), we are rather wondering why a guy that got himself over and seemed like a sure bet for at least a year or two run in the upper midcard was so suddenly cut off at the knees and sent packing - even though he was handpicked by the audience.
As for the smark thing, it is called a hypothetical statement. I was using a rhetorical device to try to discern your definition of a smark - which seems to apply to everyone that goes to wrestling sites...and likes Zack Ryder. The point behind said device is to show that you have no consistent definition and are using the term strictly for the convenience of your argument. You don't qualify "smark," you assume some meaning for it, in spite of the fact that the term is consistently tossed around in a haphazard fashion.
Rene Dupree hasn't left the business. The rest of your points are dead on though.
ReplyDelete"THE BUSINESS!!!"
ReplyDeleteActually, I said quite bluntly that the definition of smarks is exactly what it's always been: People that go out of their way to get more wrestling content on the internet. My definition has been consistent throughout.
ReplyDeleteGood try though! I appreciate your utter lack of addition to this conversation.
Here, I'll repeat it because you're being purposely dense again: NO ONE that didn't go to the Youtube channel (you know, seek extra content on the internet) knew who the fuck Zack Ryder was.
Thus his "handpicked fanbase" were smarks.
Weird huh?
Now. You were going to tell me what Zack Ryder has to add and who he should go over. What red hot storylines are out there in desperate need of someone to shit it up in the ring and say "You Know It"?
I *eagerly* await your reply.
Makes you wonder what Chris Benoit did to Vince to get his push...
ReplyDeleteANYTHING can happen on MONDAY NIGHT RAWWWW!!!
ReplyDeleteBelieve me, I feel your pain. I've argued endlessly with Chin Man 1000. No matter how many points you come up with, no matter how many facts you present to him...he labels them irrelevant or not worth any weight. There is no point-counterpoint to the the debate. There is you-make-a-point-he-laughs-it-off. In order to communicate with people, make connections, and persuade people to one's own side of the debate, one must find common ground, make a concession or two (even if it's a token one), and stick within the parameters of the debate without putting words into people's mouths. 1,000 does not do this. He's an intelligent guy, but he does not do this at all in his sometimes brash arguing.
ReplyDeleteDon't agree at all. Morrison is fantastic on things like Ryder's show, his Hollywood videos with Miz, and lower-key backstage stuff. What he's not great at, unfortunately, is the big 'project to the back of the arena' promos that WWE demands of everyone. That's a flaw but to say he lacks charisma at all is ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteWait, so I have been wasting my lengthy responses and academic jargon on a hopeless argument?! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
ReplyDeleteNeed Beer!
Dead-on accurate. For all we know, there are a dozen wrestlers we wouldn't even suspect who have Rock-esque charisma, but we don't know about it since a) they're never given promo time or b) are forced into the unnatural dialogue of a set script.
ReplyDeleteVince has always been the kind of guy who was resentful about pushing anything that he didn't "create," and that has been filtered down to the current writing staff as well. Cutting off the nose to spite the face.
Billy Gunn keeps being mentioned in connection to Ryder, but hey, Gunn was undeniably super-over in 1998 and he made the company money. And again, Gunn wasn't a main eventer --- he and Road Dogg were midcarders who were easily popular enough to throw into a RAW main event if need be. It was only when WWE decided to make Gunn a singles wrestler that everyone soured on him since Gunn wasn't fit for that role. Likewise, nobody here is arguing that Ryder should be headlining Wrestlemania or anything, but there's no reason he shouldn't/couldn't be a valuable cog in the midcard.
ReplyDeleteActually, if you think about it, Ryder is essentially both New Age Outlaws rolled into one guy. He's the catchphrases and the charisma of Road Dogg plus the 'WWE look' of Billy Gunn. Ryder is also no great shakes in the ring, just like RD or Gunn, but I wouldn't call him terrible or uncarryable by any means.
Pretty much. To him, there is no way in hell you formulated your opinion through a lens of objectivity, intelligence, and logic. Not one of your points in a 50 point argument can be correct. And, as I've found out the last few days, he'll only get nastier in his retorts.
ReplyDeleteSo yeah, beer s'good, to quote Buffy.
My thoughts exactly. The more you watch Morrison's talking segments and interviews, the more you realize how creative and witty he is. But that flaw you mentioned still stands. Hopefully he continues working on it. He could be a poor man's HBK...which is still unbelievably awesome.
ReplyDeleteHey, The Fuj, who told you that you could use the phrase, "THIS BUSINESS"? HHH is going to hunt you down and make sure you never step foot inside THIS BUSINESS again. In summation, THIS BUSINESS and THIS INDUSTRY has no need for people like you saying things like THIS BUSINESS.
ReplyDeleteSorry. I was hoping for dueling HHH promos on THIS BUSINESS.
ReplyDeleteThat was wrong... but I laughed anyway.
ReplyDeleteOH ITS ON BITCH! *snaps*
ReplyDelete"THIS BUSINESS... MY BUSINESS!!!"
You will rue the day that you stepped into "THE BUSINESS" of The Fuj
But doesn't the E pay for their airfair, rental, and hotel? So basically their getting flown in on the companies dime.
ReplyDeleteIf that's the case, said person is still making bank after taxes for doing nothing.