Scott,
I agree with your recent take that a developmental system would be best designed to teach young guys how to work, rather than assigning them a gimmick for the future. This being said, doesn't that make it an extra waste of time for creative to take the time to throw someone like Shaul Guerrero in the random name and personality generator when the end result is that they bring on Vickie Guerrero to FCW to establish that she is the mother of "Raquel Diaz". With all the second- and third-generation wrestlers at FCW, this just seems silly.
Similarly, although I understand the desire to create names of their own to trademark, I really don't understand the desire to extensively rebrand some of these people who were very well established at ROH. With the tag team division an afterthought, they could easily reunite the "Kings of Wrestling" with the likely soon-to-be-signed Sara Del Ray and give them a much bigger push than Antonio Cesaro, Kassius Ohno, and Ashley Poindexter (or whatever they choose to call her) would get in the meantime.
What do you think?
Bill Barker
Oh yeah, developmental is currently a giant waste of time. I think HHH is legitimately determined to overhaul it, but the lame gimmick names and "characters" are an uphill battle. I think ultimately the best strategy is to just take some of these guys out on the road and field-test these stupid gimmicks and see what gets over and what doesn't. Hell, didn't they take Dean Ambrose out on the road months ago to get him ready for his big debut? Whatever happened to THAT guy? Anyway, I don't get why they don't just buy ROH and treat them like developmental, because then they've got people doing 70% of the work for them.
" Anyway, I don't get why they don't just buy ROH and treat them like
ReplyDeletedevelopmental, because then they've got people doing 70% of the work for
them."
I've felt that way for a long time. FCW should be a kind of learn the basics of WWE style type place, and a place for the guys & gals with little to no experience to learn. Then they should be upgraded to ROH where they have to work a different style and compete in front of very a more hard-to-please audience. They did something similar with ECW and they did not churn out guys with the level of skill that ROH has (in the in-ring department; obviously ECW did much better with promos & character) and the two best guys in the whole company came from ROH.
Plus as Scott has been saying; when a guy like The Miz goes cold and they essentially run out of ideas for him, and in Miz's case specifically his ring work has plateaued, shipping him off to ROH to sharpen his skills and learn a new way to work is exactly what is needed.
Ambrose definitely was ready and I think they were about to pull the trigger on the Foley/Ambrose program when he was on the road. Then for whatever reason, it fell apart. Now he has to wait for however long those geniuses in creative take to come up with something new.
ReplyDeleteMy take on it is just call them up and put them on Raw. Let them sink or swim, and the ones worth keeping in the long run will swim. Can always come up with the "story" later.
Let them win some matches, get their shit over, and put them in simple feuds that fans can point to as a reason to care about them when it's time to pull the trigger on them.
I could talk about this for days but my idea from the beginning, and it remains, re-establish the territories and ask some of these guys under legends contracts to lend their names to the areas that they got their start from to these promotions and just bounce the FCW (and some of the big roster guys that can't get over) around to keep them in front of new audiences to see what works and what doesn't work.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was growing up I remember the odd joy of seeing a guy working as a heel in World Class on TV and then working as a super babyface in Mid-South on my local syndicated show. It was funny to see the same person, do many of the same things but with different intentions and a different reaction.I'm hopeful HHH can do something with developmental. Maybe he can convince HBK to quit hunting for rattlesnakes and re-open his Texas promotion as a start.
Look, pal, Ashley Poindexter needs to learn how to work the WWE style in THIS BUSINESS. Whether it's botching moves in 90 second matches, appearing in bad comedy skits backstage, or knowing how to dance/gyrate while there's a musical act playing, she has a lot to learn about being a WWE Diva.
ReplyDeleteWith that said, I have much respect for Natty, Beth, AJ, Kaitlyn, and even Eve.
ROH as developmental? As long as Cornette's there, it won't work due to hostility. Cornette's rants on how WWE treated OVW back in the day are legendary. Then again, Johnny Ace was head of developmental at the time.
Yea. I think one of the problems with the current system is there's no place to just "go away" for a while and fix what may be broken or let fans forget a failed gimmick, push, or lack of push. In territories, guys could go from World Class, to Stampede, to Mid-South, etc and keep working things out in front of people who don't really know what happened in their last stop.
ReplyDeleteI think too much is being made about the names being given to the young talent. If the WWE really likes a guy or girl, they will just change their name and repackage them:
ReplyDeleteSkip Sheffield became Ryback
Husky Harris became Bray Wyatt
I really don't see how bringing back wrestling territories would help. Plus, wouldn't the WWE want to keep a close eye on talent. Also, I doubt living the territory lifestyle is probably be more of a negative factor for people not wanting to be a wrestler. It's also part of the past and WWE believes more in the idea of evolving instead of living in the past.
It takes time to develop talent. FCW/NXT just needs to produce as many TV shows and put on as many house shows on a consistent basis for talent to get a daily exposure to working a WWE lifestyle.
http://goo.gl/CdC95
ReplyDeleteI think too much is being made about the names being given to the young talent. If the WWE really likes a guy or girl, they will just change their name and repackage them: http://goo.gl/CWJZx
ReplyDelete"Also, living the territory lifestyle would probably be more of a negative factor for people not wanting to be a wrestler"
ReplyDeleteI think that's a good thing; weed the guys out who won't be able to handle the travel schedule. They're kinda coddled only working Florida. I mean I've heard Colt Cabana talk about this on AOW; it's pretty ridiculous that they court these models & college athletes who don't have any desire to be wrestlers, throw a bunch of money at them, and attempt to teach them; when there are hundreds of guys on the indies dying to get that opportunity who already know how to work.
You're right about names, they can always be changed. Ryback's problem isn't people chanting SKIP at him.
But the "stars of tomorrow" learning one very restricting style & only performing in front of essentially one audience before being called up to wrestle on Raw or SD is no good. It's not a coincidence that Punk & Bryan are the best on the roster and have wrestled in the most places. They have gotten to perfect their craft in front of diverse audiences and can adapt, they can roll with the crowd; which is why a guy like The Miz (who I like a lot, just think he is in serous need of fine tuning) is a deer in the headlights if the crowd starts shitting on his match.
Did Shawn really train all those young upstarts that came in like Bryan Danielson and Spanky? I read that it was Rudy Boy Gonzalez who was doing most of the work...
ReplyDeleteI can't believe I'm saying this...but maybe WWE should borrow from TNA's Gut Check idea with new guys coming in. A fifteen minute segment/match on a 3 hour RAW could really break up the monotony of what they're doing right now.
ReplyDeleteI could NEVER see WWE buying ROH to work as their developmental. Part of why ROH was so cool during it's heyday is diverse but talented guys coming in and working different styles. WWE is too control freak-ish to allow this to happen.
ReplyDeleteRegal, Ambrose, and Foley used Twitter to push the Ambrose story and then they used Twitter to settle it. This might be the first, real Twitter-exclusive wrestling angle.
ReplyDeleteCouldn't they just change the first names of the second and third generation wrestlers and keep their last names. It makes more sense for Joe Hennig to become "Michael Hennig" rather than "Michael McGillicutty." Thus the wrestler to have a fictional name but still maintain their heritage.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of which, I'm actually surprised they didn't repackage Bo Rotunda with a gimmick name that acknowledges that he is the son of the fictional character IRS rather than giving him the bland moniker "Bo Dallas." That would kill two birds with one stone.
Ive been saying for years that WWE should just give the best indy promotions
ReplyDeleteROH
PWG
PWO (pro wrestling OHIO)
OVW (sucks cuz they are with TNA now)
Under the table money and become the new NWA. That way talent can rotate around the country and get seasoned in different styles of work and getting over in different parts of the country.
THEN goto FCW for a final seasoning/ learn wwe style.
Then get called up to main roster.
You make great points about weeding out the talent that does not have the heart to be a wrestler through the territory system. But I have to give you this person who hated being in a "territory" at the time when he was learning his craft in Ohio Valley Wrestling: Brock Lesnar.
ReplyDeleteLesnar hated being in OVW. And let's say he when he was training back in 2000 or so, decided to leave because he just hated being there; far away from family and stuck in a pretty bland area of Kentucky. Had Lesnar decided to quit, WWE would have missed out on some of the early success he brought to the promotion when he arrived. But my argument has holes because Lesnar made it to the WWE only to quit in 2004.
But my point is that I would not give up on top notch, looks like a star, talent just because they hate living the territory lifestyle. It would probably motivate them even more to get to the bigger stage of the WWE.
Way too many places for the WWE Scouts to pay attention to. They had that back in 2000 with Heartland Wrestling Association, Ohio Valley Wrestling, Ultimate Pro Wrestling and Deep South. They blew that up and stuck with OVW until there scouts, who live in Florida, wanted to have talent near where they live.
ReplyDeletePlus, indy promoters and under the table money is an ingredient for trouble for the WWE.
Well, at least Richie Steamboat is on NXT and they didn't change his name yet.
ReplyDeleteit would be a good idea,but a lot of people would leave those companys because they won't do the wwe style
ReplyDeleteWill someone get on HHH's good side if they show up to a house show even when they weren't scheduled?
ReplyDeleteAs long as WWE keeps making sequels to the Marine and movies about serial killers with 3 foot schlongs and ex-cons trying to turn their lives around, there'll always be a place for a stale guy to go away for a while.
ReplyDeleteFoley helped cement Triple-H as a top mid-carder with the Mankind/Dude Love Vs Hunter Hearst Helmsley. Foley dropped the title to HHH for his first run as Champion when Austin didn't want to. Foley lost repeatedly leading to his "retirement". Some would say this is the least HHH could do for him.
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorite themes of the board is how completely exaggerated ROH's impact and level of popularity is.
ReplyDeleteMy idea has been essentially the same for years now; create a new territory system, but use it to split up the WWE roster into touring seasons. Develop several territory systems in the major wrestling hotbeds (Northeast, Southeast, Midwest, possibly Mexico) and then cycle out superstars in the roster between the WWE's main tour (Raw, SmackDown, etc.) and the territories to help keep the rosters and characters fresh. You could easily do something akin to a "Loser Leaves Town" type scenario, or an injury angle, or any other relative creative way to send down your talent. Keep FCW as your primary starting ground for new talent, then send them on the road through the territories to work with top stars touring them.
ReplyDeleteI'm not all that interested in watching a guy green as grass blow 10 spots in three minutes like that guy on Impact last week.
ReplyDeleteI didn't mean picking a random stray from the indies and shoving him on RAW. I meant it as a way to ease some new guys from FCW onto the main roster.
ReplyDeleteIt couldn't hurt and it wouldn't be any worse than the garbage they have on TV right now.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. If they had showed up on RAW as a tag-team, then it's not like thousands of people would go "Wow! The Kings of Wrestling are in WWE!!!!!!!"
ReplyDeleteIf they wanted to establish the Kings of Wrestling as a tag-team (assuming they cared about tag teams) then great - put them together as a team (hopefully with a better name than "Kings of Wrestling"). But don't think for a moment that the fact that they teamed up in ROH would matter to 99.9% of the people watching RAW.
I'm sure Paul Diamond had a big hand in it too. I don't think the point is exactly who's training who but having all those collective minds there to contribute.
ReplyDeleteWWE should just keep making Tough Enough. They'll find what they're looking for then!
ReplyDeleteThose Tough Enough experiments are weird. A guy goes through the contest, gets approval of the superstar trainers, wins a WWE contract, then loses his spot within a year.
ReplyDeleteDanny Puder
Andy Levine
WWE gives themselves a chance to create a wrestler only to fail.
Not only that, but I think that if WWE bought ROH fans would turn on the promotion immediately. The whole appeal of ROH is that it's not WWE. It would be like WWECW all over again. Plus a lot of the workers would either quit or get canned right from the start.
ReplyDeleteI'm waiting for Steamboat's son to show up as a kilted Anderson McGuillicutty in a vignette.
ReplyDeleteThey nixed Ambrose/Foley because they realized Foley would have to end up, ya know, wrestilng at the end of it.
ReplyDeleteIt's not all garbage. OK about half maybe but "heel" Punk, Bryan, Sandow, and Cesaro are good.
ReplyDeleteIf I were Vince I'd be using TNA as my feeder program. Forget about getting these clowns off the street and trying to teach them how to work, or signing second generation guys just because they're second generation guys and then not acknowledging that they're second generation guys on TV, he should be looking at homegrown TNA talent like Styles, Roode, Daniels, Storm, Kaz, and the like. Wave a huge check in their face, sign them, and throw them on TV with no stupid name change or WWE-ized new gimmick. They don't need time in FCW, they already know how to work. It worked in 1998-2000 when they acquired all those guys from WCW, and it would work today. Let someone else go through all the trouble of getting them over, and then bring them in. Of course none of this is possible now with the lawsuit, but they could have done it a year ago.
ReplyDeleteTNA's response would be to hire failed WWE midcard guys like Tomko and The Pope.
ReplyDeleteRichie Steamboat, in five years, will be the next John Cena. Whether we like it or not. I just get that feeling that's what they are grooming him to be.
ReplyDeleteWhat would be hilarious if the WWE did pair those guys up as a team and they get over big time with the fans. And the WWE takes FULL credit for their formation with not one mention of their ROH background.
ReplyDeleteDon't public companies have to be open about where they spend money?
ReplyDeleteHey, Brodus Clay could certainly use a third dancer!
ReplyDeleteRight, because people weren't going crazy for CM Punk when he first debuted?
ReplyDeleteBo Schyster?
ReplyDeleteAnd as we've learned over the years, Johnny Ace is pretty much a moron.
ReplyDeleteRudy Boy taught the classes along with a guy called Venom and a few others, but it was all according to Shawn's say-so and curriculum, and Shawn oversaw. A lot of the "it was all the other guys, not Shawn" came from early ROH when they did a kayfabed angle with Steve Corino taking on Rudy Boy, Spanky, Danielson, and London, I think.
ReplyDeleteRegardless Shawn has always been very vocal in putting over the three guys from his class that made it to WWE and had a big hand in whatever sustained employment any of them had. I think Shawn pushing for it has a lot to do with D-Bry's success, and supposedly similar things were planned for Kendrick and Cade at times.
Had early OVW not had such a rousing success with creating marketable, well rounded wrestlers then I think they'd have probably abandoned developmental as a concept already and gone back to farming it out to outside territories. Having created stars like Lesnar, Cena, Orton, Batista, Benjamin, Haas, etc. so easily kind of made it seem like they had the golden touch, but ten years after those guys got pushed to the main roster and they have had diminishing returns ever since. I'd say pull the plug, but the current characters are actually pretty good.
ReplyDeleteIn spirit, probably not in practice.
ReplyDeleteThey can't do that right now due to the lawsuit.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I said that in the last sentence of the post.
ReplyDeleteAnd on the other side they can send guys like The Miz to TNA. Everybody would profit from it.
ReplyDeleteI would bring the Kings of Wrestling like the Outsiders. They could try to take over the WWE together with Sandow and maybe Ambrose or Wade Barrett. Like Nexus, just better. :-)
ReplyDelete