Hey, just thought I'd pitch you a question you can answer when the blog is slow.
Who would you place as the Top 3 greatest talkers of all time?
While we're at it, what's the greatest promo ever?
Ric Flair, The Rock, and a whole lot of other people way down tied for third. The more Terry Funk promos from Memphis that I look up, though, the higher up the list he climbs.
I'm pretty sure I've mentioned the greatest promo ever a few times, but it's easily Archie "The Stomper" Goldie in Stampede, cutting his revenge promo on Bad News Allen after the brutal attack that put his son out of wrestling. Even now you want to buy a ticket for the show and watch him beat Bad News into a bloody pulp. Sadly the ultra-violent blowoff pretty much resulted in the early demise of the promotion, but no guts no glory.
i would definitely put flair,the rock and austin for me these are the ones.
ReplyDeleteRock and Flair are good but it always felt they were going through a checklist of catchphrases until they got down to woooo/If ya smell...
ReplyDeleteI'll take Piper over both of them any day. With an honorable mention for Raven.
IMO, The Rock was overrated on the mic from 1999-2001. I always preferred Steve Austin's promos.
ReplyDeleteHow did it result in stampedes closing?
ReplyDeletei know that some of rocky promos are overrated,but he made a excellent promos like the rock concert
ReplyDeleteDepends on your criteria. Criteria could be anything from most entertaining, to best ability to talk fans into buying a ppv or tickets, to ability to get heel heat, to ability to get sympathy. I think The Rock may be the most entertaining, but in retrospect, some of his promos were downright hurtful to his opponent's careers. For me the three most entertaining would be Rock, Jericho, and Flair. However, I'd put Foley ahead of both Jericho and Rock at getting emotion across, at creating an emotional connection with the audience.
ReplyDeleteit's to hard to nail down only to 3 and also raven was a fantastic talker,i never understanded why wcw or wwf never pushed the guy he was pure gold.
ReplyDeleteBecause I doubt there was a day in WCW when he was sober.
ReplyDeleteMy understanding; Drugs and Booze
ReplyDeleteyeah,and they say that he had mental problems too,is that real?
ReplyDeleteI'm sure all the chair shots he took to the head over the years didn't help. But when you hear him talk nowadays, he seems pretty normal.
ReplyDeletethanks,man,raven could have a lot more,but drugs and booze always fuck things up
ReplyDeleteI agree, it really depends on the intention. Flair is the best to me because he could cut both the "I am the greatest, you suck, buy this match" promo and the emotionally stirring ones. Most guys can really do one or the other well. Austin, Rock, and Hogan could cut the first type amazingly well, but guys like Foley and Jake Roberts excelled more at the other type.
ReplyDeleteI agree, the Rock is crazy entertaining, but none of his promo's have ever given me goosebumps like Mankind's "Daddy did it" promo after he won the world tittle
ReplyDeleteRIck Rude deserves mention, though I would concede that he's probably closer to top ten. His case is complicated by the fact his prime was so short, really 89-94. His mic work for dx/nwo was still pretty good. . .
ReplyDeleteEveryone knows that the greatest promo of all time is the Superstar Billy Graham one that Chael Sonnen ripped off.
ReplyDeleteI can't believe they've had the tapes for so long and we still don't have a Stampede DVD set.
ReplyDeletePiper definitely deserves mention. Even at his batshit craziest, he can still deliver the goods and put pretty much anything over. The live Pit ceased to be the appropriate venue for him years ago with his tendency to go off on tangents and tell jokes that only amuse the voices in his head, but I bet he can still work the magic with 5 minutes of focused promo time and a point to get across.
ReplyDeleteShelton Benjamin
ReplyDelete"You wanna try to fight me, you better BRING A LUNCH!"
The feud was too violent and got them banned from Calgary because Ed Whalen quit over it, and he was their liason with the TV station. Without TV they couldn't run shows and Stu had to sell to Vince a few months later.
ReplyDeleteHe is a tad overrated. Some of the things he tried would be right at home coming out of John Cena ("Rock burger with extra Rock sauce", "get yourself a tall glass of Shut Up Juice", the Armageddon HIAC promo ["I'm gonna drink a big glass of milk! Eat some chocolate chip cookies and maybe I'll take three Viagra!"]). He's certainly one of the greats, but he was a lot more prone to off nights than people remember.
ReplyDeleteNobody mentioned Jake Roberts?
ReplyDeleteFlair had some awesome promos in the 80s before he turned into a caricature of himself. Sadly, he lasted so song as a caricature it overshadowed some of his best stuff.
ReplyDeleteMick Foley at his peak (pre-"cheap pops") was pretty brilliant. ECW put out a "Best of Cactus Jack" video around the promotion folded that was just loaded with great stuff.
ReplyDeleteRock's promo towards Hogan about the fans always believing in him, especially a fan like the Rock himself, was pretty damn emotional.
ReplyDelete"Cane Dewey" should be required watching during wrestling training.
ReplyDeleteI do, have, and always will love Piper on the mic - even at his worst, there's a seriousness and intensity to him that just FEELS authentic. When some young loudmouth heel interrupts him nowadays, I always feel like Piper really is trying to warn the young guy about heading down the wrong path in life.
ReplyDeleteAs I understand it, he's bipolar. I don't consider that a problem, at least, not the way some have described it. I think perhaps it's just 'rare' among wrestlers. Same with homosexuality, kind of.
ReplyDeletePiper, Foley and Roberts connected on a more emotional realistic level. Rock, Flair and Austin, while great, all relied much more heavily on catch phrases.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qzY8GfIMF0
ReplyDeleteThis is in reply to both "David Montgomer" and "thebraziliankid":
ReplyDeleteRock has always reminded me a bit of a stand-up comic - he'd constantly try new material, and while some of his bad lines were cringe-inducing, his good ones would absolutely knock it out of the park.
I mean, I'm not a huge Rock fan by any means, and things like "turn it sideways and stick it straight up your candy-ass" were (IMO) lame as hell, but holy crap can I watch his "Rock Concerts" over and over and laugh hysterically every time.
You gotta put Shawn Michaels on the list somewhere. "Who's your daddy, Montreal?" might be the greatest heel promo ever, and yet he spent most of his (second) career cutting winner babyface promos, including some particularly great ones against HHH ("Don't hunt... what you can't kill."), Undertaker ("Let there be light."), and pretty much whoever else he was programmed against. Heck, they keep bringing him back just to get HHH's crappy feuds over on the mic, and there's a reason for that. There's also a reason it usually works.
ReplyDeleteThe "mental problems" that people are talking about aren't so much things like Parkinson's or memory loss, but anxiety and depression. He had problems long before he got into wrestling.
ReplyDeleteSeconded. The guy's actually a distant relation of mine, but bias aside, did anybody cut better promos at a psychological level? His stuff was gold, and the "This Tuesday in Texas" promo he did after slapping Elizabeth still makes me want to watch Macho beat the Hell out of him.
ReplyDeleteBobby Heenan (he was a talker, right?) Royal Rumble 92 with him and Gorilla is the gold standard.
ReplyDeleteAustin. From Stevemania to Austin 3:16 to his interactions with The Man of the WWF, he made himself the biggest star ever in wrestling with his talking. How did he stay over when Owen broke his neck? Talking.
I've barely watched any NWA stuff, but I suspect Dusty or Flair, I'd put at 3rd.
The Rock to me always was like Madlibs, just with his various catchphrases instead of the word penis. Kind of funny but totally missable, kind of lazy, damn repetitive.
Not mentioned yet but Macho Man's promos all the way to the end of his WCW run were always fun to watch. So much anger and emotion.
ReplyDeleteLET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING, BROTHER! IT'S NOT ABOUT HOW OLD YOU ARE, IT'S ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL, BROTHER! AND I FEEL...157, BROTHER!
ReplyDeleteHBK 97-98 was golden. Always had something cool to say.
ReplyDeleteOther than that his 96 title run was full of boring promos, and his after his return, I thought besides his feud with Hogan his promos were pretty boring.
We could pretty much start playing The Rock Bingo every time he cuts a promo nowadays. Trending worldwide? Check. Boots to Asses? Check. Ladyparts? Check. Plug a movie? Check. And so forth.
ReplyDeleteI think Stone Cold is very underrated as a talker. He knew how to whip a crowd into a frenzy and the "Austin 3:16" is one of the most iconic promo moments ever. And as much as people abhor the "What?"...you gotta hand it to him to make an insanely over phrase with one common word.
ReplyDeleteCocaine is a hell of a drug.
ReplyDeleteI've never been a huge fan of Rock's mic-work; I mean, granted, the guy had a fantastic stage presence, and I always appreciated those great "coked-up" interviews he gave where he'd bounce around while talking (as opposed to just standing in place and speaking directly into the camera), but his actual promos were nothing but jokes. Sure, they were often funny jokes, but that's all they were. He'd make fun of his opponent. To me, there was never any actual emotion there. May as well have had George Carlin there.
ReplyDeleteAnd that's not to say that I can't appreciate humor in wrestling, Foley was/is a great example, but Foley had more in his repertoire than humor. Foley could actually act. Foley could actually make me care about whether he won or lost, or make me look forward to a hellacious beating.
To me, Rock has every right to lay claim to being the FUNNIEST wrestler of all time, but he couldn't act. He couldn't emote. I'll take guys like Foley, Piper, Shawn, Austin, Jake, Eddie, Dibiase, Flair, Dusty, Punk, Bryan, and Miz any day of the week.
The one thing I will credit Rock with is good enunciation. He was smart to really sound out 'boots to asses' so there was no confusion, nothing to prevent it... Trending worldwide.
ReplyDeleteI was just about to post exactly that. Even all the way back to Memphis, you never saw a bad Randy Savage promo, even when he was plugging something inane like WWF Mania or some video release, you wanted to see it just for him.. He grabbed you by the lapels every single time, in way that was much more intense and authentic than Hogan or the Warrior. His run with DDP was his last great feud promo-wise, after that he just kind of phoned it in, but you can hardly blame him.
ReplyDeleteMick was knocking them out of the park every week in ECW.
ReplyDeleteHis pre-match promo at WM6 against Dibiase is probably the best 2 minute promo in the history of wrestling.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A62sNWNco1E
No love for Dusty?? Hard Times still makes me mark out.
ReplyDeleteKurt Angle hardly gets enough credit. He started basically from scratch to become one of the best in the business within a couple of years.
ReplyDeleteWhere does AJ rank?
ReplyDeleteSeveral rungs below the Macho Warrior Ric Hogan.
ReplyDeleteDusty is probably #1 as far as the ability to talk someone into an arena for one specific match. Which makes him #1, period. And yes, "Hard Times" is probably the greatest babyface promo ever. His asking to be Dustin's tag partner for the Clash against the Stud Stable and the "EYE...FOR AN EYE" promo on the Road Warriors are also two of the very best ever.
ReplyDeleteNo mention of Cornette yet?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kUbGhaapf1w
ReplyDeleteI think his "Uncle Willie" promo tops the ones transcribed in Have a Nice Day. To tie in the Hiroshima bombing with the King of the Death Match tournament and with the U.S.S. Indianapolis was probably exploitative as all hell, but Foley made it work by coming off as being simultaneously self-righteous and crazy.
ReplyDelete"To me, Rock has every right to lay claim to being the FUNNIEST wrestler of all time, but he couldn't act. He couldn't emote."
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, he's the only wrestler to successfully make it in Hollywood.
Seriously, Austin was ON FIRE in 1997, he was a borderline comedy heel with all his outrageous statements, especially in the early part of the year when his sole purpose was to make Bret's life a living hell.
ReplyDeleteMy pick for the 3 greatest talkers are Ric Flair, Steve Austin, and The Rock.
ReplyDeleteYou are correct sir. Flair circa 1980s was not just a catchphrase spewing machine. He could sell a match and a promotion and still keep it fresh. Even after he became a charicature of himself, he could still bust out a money drawing promo. Remember the "here's your old yeller" promo he delivered on his way to the match with Shawn at WM? A thing of beauty.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with Cult though on Piper. He's in my top 3. His intensity was unmatched and he was the "loose cannon" on the mic long before Pilman.
Heenan wasn't cutting a promo though as much as he was awesome as the color guy in that match. However, the post match promo by Flair was pretty awesome for a 2 minute job.
ReplyDeleteDusty's promos after Windham went Horsemen are unbelievable. You literally felt like his heart was torn out by someone he considered to be as close to him as his sons. We need more Dusty's today.
ReplyDeleteI'm a mark for a lot of guys, but Piper always made me interested in where the hell we'd all end up. Tangents, "aside" jokes to the audience, emotional babbling, cutting into his opponents, explaining historical significance of certain situations... the promos ran the gauntlet and still really came together by the end.
ReplyDeleteBut to name a Top 3? That's such an unfair number. Respecting the love for Foley and Macho from the smark gallery, too. I don't get why some people think The Rock is overrated, though. He had one bad year, 1999, where even his "this ain't sing-along with the Rock" catchphrase about repeating what he said became repetitive, but he was so far ahead of everyone else it was scary during all of the other years.
The weird thing was just his presence alone could be scary. I mean, no matter who it was, if they both had a mic, The Rock had the ability to make his opponent look so so so small simply through his confidence and delivery. Even if he had nothing to say, he'd win the debate/argument with his opponent on sheer confidence and will alone.
Can I just copy and paste what you just said here?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I don't think Flair really phoned it in during his WWE run (2002-08) all that much. His promos during the last few years of his run were particularly good and thoughtful. I think it was because he was playing a different role. He was an aging playboy and walking legend, so he accounted for this change in perception in his promos. The arrogance was toned down, and this blend of desperation and wisdom were amped up. His promos with HBK, Carlito, HHH, Foley, and Edge are pretty golden if you ask me.
ReplyDeleteYou know it's interesting, 95% of the cachet of DX came out of those early promos. It would be impossible to describe the kind of toxic heat HBK had throughout '97 to someone who wasn't watching. He would say absolutely anything to get the crowd going, he played the petulant little pissant to the hilt and there was still the charged atmosphere from Montreal. I remember just about praying somebody would beat the shit out of him whenever he was on screen. Ken Shamrock could have been a main event guy right away had he not blown it so badly in the match at IYH:DX, so great was the desire for somebody, ANYBODY, to whip him after Survivor Series. That's the reason (as opposed to the silly skits and catchphrases) that DX can be said to have been on equal footing with the nWo, as far as I'm concerned. It was especially weird after seeing a year and a half of his boring self-righteous "VIN MAN" babyface interviews
ReplyDeleteJBL would be on everybody's list if the JBL character had lasted longer. The man was brilliant. I still remember him doing a ten-minute in-ring monologue, talking to a blow-up Godzilla doll, in Japan, while pretending to be stoned on muscle relaxants. And it was all a ruse to lure the Big Show into the ring, so he could clothesline him.
ReplyDeleteThey have the tapes, yes, but the matches are clipped to hell and many of the matches have simply been recorded over. They didn't keep everything for posterity's sake like the WWF has, which is very unfortunate. Otherwise, don't you think we would have seen Stampede matches in the Bret/Hart & Soul sets?
ReplyDeleteLove that promo. "JBL stands for Just Beat a Lizard!"
ReplyDeleteYeah, that segment worked far better than it looked like it was going to when he came out with the blow up Godzilla
ReplyDeleteJBL may not have lasted that long but I'd still peg him in the top ten talkers based on that one run. Had Bradshaw found that character earlier he'd be a genuine contender at the top of this list
Eh, JBL is kind of a weird one. In retrospect, yes, he was a good talker and he held his own as a worker. But at the time, his push seemed to be completely apropos of nothing and drawn out of a hat. I (along with most everybody on the internet) had no interest in seeing him go over every credible challenger, nor in seeing him lose, just going away forever and never coming back.
ReplyDeleteWhile Rock is an elite talker and the greatest ever at the trash talking promo, to me, he'll never be the best for two reasons.
ReplyDelete1. His promos are one dimensional and all have the same emotion, volume, etc. all the way through.
2. Rock more consistently buries his opponents on the mic than builds them up.
Let's not forget Paul Heyman, as we've seen lately on WWE programming. One of the best manager mouthpieces of all time, and he must've been a helluva talker behind the scenes too since he got so many guys in ECW working essentially for free. :)
ReplyDeleteI should put managers (Heyman, Cornette, Heenan, Slick, Blassie, etc.) in a different category than wrestlers when it comes to 'talking,' as a manager's main job is to talk his guy up and promote him.
Foley, Jake the Snake, Piper, Flair, Rock, Austin, Dusty, Arn Anderson....any combination of these three is a very acceptable top three. I'm not really sure you can make a great case for anyone besides one of these eight. Even Hogan, who had a lot of intensity in backstage promos but was actually pretty weak in the modern era of back-and-forth interviews.
I wouldn't at all say he's one of the great talkers, but in terms of being a natural, Batista had a very direct and realistic air in his delivery. All his subtle interview work with Evolution when he was turning, his great "I'm onto your tricks" attitude when Eddie was trying to be his buddy and clearly getting ready to turn on him, and then of course Batista's great heel run that ended his WWE tenure.
Is there any footage of the actual attack that "crippled" his "son"?
ReplyDeleteGoddamn, that promo he cut against Cena before WM was MONEY, esp. when cut off Cena ready to go on his SCREAMING BECAUSE NOW I'M SERIOUS rants.
ReplyDelete"I am here to MAKE MONEY! I am here to WIN TITLES!..so you go ahead, you keep on kissing babies and hugging fat girls!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoWX4Patfng
Yeah, ditto
ReplyDeleteBeing a little hard on Mr. Styles, aren't you?
ReplyDeleteMr. Ventura would have make it in Hollywood, but he had a higher calling.
ReplyDeleteYou want to play Aces and Eights? He's got a few of those too...
ReplyDeleteThe lack of Hogan in here is disturbing but sadly predictable. And the love for piper is just maddeningly wrong. Most of you have clearly edited out the 90s.
ReplyDeleteI wish I could edit out all the terrible 90's Hogan promos.
ReplyDeleteA lot of people think Bret Hart is a bad promo guy (and he might agree with you in certain stages of his career) but his Anti-American stuff (as well as the El Dandy one) showed that when he was inspired, he was pretty good.
ReplyDeleteHaha, a lot of people think Big Show was done as a serious main eventer at the beginning of his WWE career when he jobbed to Austin on RAW. But I think Rock's hilarious promo on him where he makes fun of his pre-chokeslam antics ("AAAUHHHAAHHHH!") probably sealed the deal.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't matter, though. The Big Show sucks, pure and simple.
Wow, so many anti-Rock promo fans here. I can agree with some of the catch-phrase stuff but honestly, in my 20+ years as a wrestling fan, I've NEVER seen anyone captivate a live, rabid crowd like he did with an interview. He could make fans love him (with the "people" stuff, how he would pause for the fans to chant for him, as well as tearing down opponents) and hate him (the Toronto promo or the Rock concert in Sacramento) just as effectively.
ReplyDeleteGreatest talker of all-time.
Bret was a consistently excellent promo as soon as his real singles push began in '91. He's only bad if you equate "yelling" with "good promo."
ReplyDeleteYeah those nwo promos that rocketed wcw to the top of the wrestling world were really ineffective.
ReplyDeleteI like how you said nWo instead of Hogan. Because when Hogan went out alone with just Bischoff, he was terrible. Couldn't leach off of Hall and Nash and just rambled for 20 minutes without making sense.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you understand the concept of being a heel.
ReplyDeleteOh, so that's why everyone would switch over to the watch the Austin promo instead. We just didn't understand great heel work.
ReplyDeleteI youtubed "hollywood hogan nitro promo" and this was the first hit. From when the nWo was still hot. It's terrible, and it's only 6 minutes long. Imagine 20 minutes of it?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEpDctsRo-0
This pretty much calls for two separate Top 3s:
ReplyDeleteWrestlers: Foley, Piper, Jake Roberts. Rounded out by Randy Savage and CM Punk.
Managers/Commentators: Bobby Heenan, Paul Heyman, Jesse Ventura.
You must know how completely factually inaccurate that is.
ReplyDeleteYou're right. Everybody was watching the riveting Hogan/Warrior program instead of Raw.
ReplyDeleteI always forget that Austin was a heel during that period.
ReplyDeleteWhat does Austin being a face or a heel have to do with it?
ReplyDeleteI'm having fun watching you try over here.
ReplyDeleteYeah I'm pretty awesome.
ReplyDeleteI always forget that hogan was only heel for those 3 months in late 98.
ReplyDeleteWait, we're not talking about AJ Lee? =(
ReplyDeleteI don't think Rock's promo sealed it, I think the WWE Championship that revolved around dragging a casket through a cemetery did.
ReplyDeleteWhat's so maddeningly wrong about Piper being a good talker?
ReplyDeleteSomething John Cena could learn actually (in regards to "yelling" = "good promo").
ReplyDeleteIf you actually that he was the right gay...right guy...at the wrong...at the right time... hold on, let me say this just one more time so that we're perfectly clear... if you actually think...
ReplyDeleteGet it?
If you actually think that he was the right gay at the wrong time...
ReplyDeletePiper face promos post WM3 were some of the worst ever. His wcw ones were all the pits.
ReplyDelete"You call yourself The Gorilla yet you hee-haw out here like a jack-ass."
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorite things he's ever said.
Instead we have John Cena hooking up with his "best friend's" girl and we're supposed to feel sorry for HIM, rather than the best friend.
ReplyDeleteWhen I had WWE 24/7 it was amazing to see the promos on the old eps of NWA. Dusty, Cornette, and Flair on every show.
ReplyDeleteThese days the crowd would probably just yell "WHAT?" at the end of every sentence. I just love how the greatest promos of all time barely last 8 minutes while WWE insists on having 15-20 minutes of scripted talking which leads to nothing.
ReplyDeleteBatista clearly doesn't belong on any of the lists, but you're right, that was a hell of a promo.
ReplyDeleteNot a wrestler and I don't know about top 3 all time, but Heyman has singlehandedly sold me on multiple shows, and I'm talking post ECW. I still remember not planning to order Survivor Series 2001 due to the mostly terrible build until the Heyman promo where someone FINALLY acted like they gave a shit. Sold me on the PPV right there.
ReplyDeleteThat line in the Archie Gouldie promo at the end where he says "You're not going to wrestle anymore...but I am." in a completely calm voice gave me goosebumps. Honestly, that is probably the promo I've ever seen.
ReplyDeletethe inspirational speech he gives the locker room before Barely Legal in 97 (that you can see on Beyond the Mat) is fucking incredible and would have gotten me pumped as hell. No wonder they would work for bounced checks and drugs.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, 100%. No ranting, no raving - and it wasn't lacking a thing. Sometimes less is more.
ReplyDeleteAnd while it may not have been clear from this match in particular: man, I miss Ed Whalen. I don't know if his style would have worked anywhere other than Stampede, but did it *ever* work in Stampede.
I would say Flair, The Rock, and probably Lawler for 3rd
ReplyDelete