Hey Scott,
Just wanted to get your opinion on the booking plan for TNA's Bound For Glory. I, for one, think they've fucked up royally.
At first the Aries title win in June seemed like it could be a great idea, because they were picking a hot babyface and sticking a rocket up his ass. Sure that screwed over James Storm, but at least they picked SOMEONE to run with.
But now it's becoming obvious that Aries is undergoing a slow heel turn for the match against Jeff Hardy. So I ask: how, in a world in which we all bemoan the CM Punk heel turn, can one justify that decision?
Using Hogan/Bischoff past booking decisions as a basis (decisions which always favor the heels and a SWERVE), I'd say there's three possible outcomes for BFG:
- Aries turns heel, loses to a face Jeff Hardy
- Aries turns heel, defeats Hardy via heel shit.
- Aries seems to turn heel, but SWERVE Jeff Hardy turns heel and wins the title
The chances of a face Aries being elevated by Jeff Hardy in a clean match would shock me more than HHH tapping to Brock Lesnar. (Oh...wait.) Instead you're either getting a heel champ, or Jeff "Victory Road" Hardy as the face champion of the company. All of which make no sense.
And in all of this, TNA blew their chance to make James Storm into the undisputed face of the company. Instead they've branded Storm a loser (Lockdown, BFG Series with a 20-point opening lead) and paired him off in a midcard match against an incredibly cold Bobby Roode. This isn't Roode coming off a year long title reign. Instead it's Roode coming off back-to-back PPV loses and no big wins in months. Christ, their feud was infinitely hotter a year ago. Isn't the point of a slow-burn to make the feud hotter, rather than cool it off?
Anyway, sorry for the long rant. I was just someone who was starting to buy into the hype of TNA getting their shit together, and instead I think they're making the same ol' mistakes at their biggest show. Swerves for the sake of swerves, never going all the way with new face champs, and banking on druggie fuckups in the main event.
Oh, and pushing ABYSS down everyone's throats. (Provided that's where A&8s are going.)
Sincerely,
Worst_in_the_World
Now, the Aries version is totally different, because Aries is being totally unreasonable right off the bat and also saying straight out that he's jealous of Jeff Hardy. Heels are insecure people, no matter if they're already World champion, so you've already got a storyline that makes way more sense than WWE's take on it.
Personally, Jeff Hardy getting pushed at the top of the card is a reason for me not to give TNA my attention each week. Much like Randy Orton in WWE, I just don't get Hardy. He was ok as a human crash dummy in TLC matches but as a singles wrestler I have never found the guy entertaining. I know I'm in the minority on that part, but Hardy brings risks these days as well. First, the obvious one is he's an unreliable druggie douche bag. The 2nd is that TNA was getting away from the stigma of being the place ex-wwf guys go to dominate by NOT letting RVD or Anderson do just that. I get the hope that Hardy still has enough casual appeal to get some new viewers but I think the risk outweighs the rewards both with his personal issues and with stunting the growth of some characters that have really been elevated in Storm, Roode, Aries, and even Bully Ray.
ReplyDeleteI think it's just going to be a mini turn for BFG. I'd bet afterwards he goes back to being a face.
ReplyDeleteThis isn't so complicated. Aries wasn't the #2, possibly the #1 face in the promotion who's also your world champion and at the same time is taking a backseat to the supposed #1 babyface on every single show. Punk's heel turn feels completely forced and against the fans will, while Aries is clearly not going to be cheered over Hardy, thus it makes sense to have him play the heel in this scenario.
ReplyDeleteAlthough i agree with most of what you're saying, it boils down to this, he's still the most popular guy in TNA and probably moves the most merch. Money talks, bullshit walks.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm with Scott on the Punk-Cena stuff. And it's not really applicable to Aries-Hardy. Aries isn't acting much differently than he was when Bully Ray was bullying him around. I think people are reading way, way too much into last night.
ReplyDeleteFinally, I don't even remotely agree that Bobby Roode is "cold." This perception comes from the fact that WWE has trained viewers to think that anyone who hasn't been on TV every single week is doing nothing. In the WWE Universe, Roode loses twice to Aries and then randomly feuds with Kane. In TNA, he resumes focus on his nemesis.
I don't get his popularity either, but it has the potential to be a really strong match and it would look good for Aries to win.
ReplyDeleteI am sick and tired of Jeff Hardy constantly getting ripped for his mistakes. The guy made a mistakes What happen? Why do people refuse to give this guy a chance. He's been clean for over a year now.
ReplyDeleteSorry, but in the world of entertainment and sports:
Josh Hamilton of the Texas Ranger
Randy Moss of the San Francisco 49ers
Jeff Hardy of TNA Wrestling
Athletes and entertainers who have had problems in their live but are given chances because they bring something to the table for their respective employees. They are different than the normal 9 to 5 employee. Why people have a tough time accepting that is beyond me.
Jeff Hardy is a popular dude. TNA is bending over backwards for the guy because he has a loyal fan bas that buys his merchandise. You can't throw that away just because of his off the field issues. That's cutting off your nose to spit your face.
I love it when other people, I am not accusing anyone on this blog, love to act like they are holier than thou and play the role of morality police and just punish a guy for his mistakes and send him away. That is not fair at all.
Sorry for the rant, but people just need to cut Jeff Haryd some slack. It's like people are waiting for him to fail.
By the way, BFG is shaping up to be a pretty great event. The 3-way tag match is going to be crazy; Aries-Hardy is going to be filled with a ton of high spots; Roode-Storm is going to steal the show and the TNA vs. A&8 should be an awesome schmozz.
ReplyDeleteThey've got three weeks to figure out a way to work Samoa Joe and Bully Ray into the card.
The only thing that will be lacking is a good X-Division match.
Agreed wholeheartedly on your last paragraph. TNA doesn't feel the need to force the same guys on TV on a weekly basis. Guys get rotated pretty consistently and it makes them feel fresh. Didn't WWE used to do this in 97 all the time?
ReplyDeleteHmm, I think most of it has to do with the concern that trusting Jeff Hardy could seriously backfire.
ReplyDeleteAgreed on Hardy. I don't think it's unrealistic to say that most of us enjoyed Eddie Guerrero and pulled for him as a character and, especially, as a person. He had the accident & issues in late '98/early '99, came back in the summer of '99 with a good bit of fan support (especially internet folk). Had the rehab issues in WWE, came back, fans loved him. Got the big belt in 2004 and it was that satisfying sort of "perseverance and hardwork" win that worked in kayfabe and out. I don't recall fans turning on him or, at the very least, not wanting to see him come back strong. Jeff has been a screw up in a lot of ways, but if the dude is clean now and performing well, more power to him.
ReplyDeleteAnd if that does not happen? He does not flake out? He enters BFG and puts on a great match with Aries. Will people give him credit for that?
ReplyDeleteMy main beef is this: How long will people put Hardy "probation" because of what he did at Victory Road? Let's get over that already.
Hey, I like Jeff Hardy just fine. Will people give him credit for being a professional? In time, I'm sure.
ReplyDeleteThere's a small difference and I think this is where most of the vitriol comes from, Josh Hamilton hasn't been up to bat wasted and Randy Moss has never been arrested with a shitload of drugs. In fact, why is Moss on this list? He 's never falied a drug test and/or been arrested for drugs.
ReplyDeleteThis is where the line for the public usually breaks. We get you're a fuck up, we'll support you, but don't bring it on to the field/ring.
Right. TNA has enough trust in their roster to shuffle people in and out. Even in kayfabe terms it makes sense why Bobby Roode would be sitting out. He lost twice! He said Aries was a fluke then Aries went and beat him again. He's been shamed and had to go sit in timeout.
ReplyDeleteI've added Randy Moss more specifically for his diva attitude problems and how NFL teams are willing to ignore those problems and still give him a contract.
ReplyDeleteBut you're right he does not belong on that list with the other two guys because they have had substance abuse issues.
Forget Randy Moss. I should have used Lawrence Taylor instead.
ReplyDeleteAm I the only one who is not into Punk/Cena because it feels a lot like their feud last year, except with Paul Heyman involved?
ReplyDeleteJohn Cena right now reminds me a lot of The Office. I loved the Office. And then after 5 or 6 years of the same thing, i lost interest and moved on. I was a huge Cena fan, especially through 2006 & the Edge feud. Didn't mind him in 2008. But these last couple of years, Im just done...dont care about him at all.
They haven't told a new story with Cena in like 4 years. The only time we even got close when his reaction after the Rocky loss at WrestleMania, but they went right back to old Cena to build for the Lesnar feud.
OK, so two things:
ReplyDeleteI agree that TNA's booking/show have gotten way better the last year, and also that turning Punk in favor of superface Cena was a shitty idea.
My gripe is that I feel like TNA is making the same mistakes with Aries, if indeed they turn him heel. It's another example of Hogan/Bischoff/TNA ruling in favor of the swrve and heel reign rather than picking a lead babyface and building the company around him.
They should have either stuck with the James Storm plan, or built around Aries. Any other option is just same old TNA shit, IMHO.
And yes, I agree that the mixing of top wrestlers in and out of the card is a good idea. But let's be fair, it's a lot easier to do with only 2 hours of programming to fill per week, rather than whatever ungodly amount WWE puts on.
Steve Austin was driving drunk & beating up Debra. No one mentions that.
ReplyDeleteShawn Michaels was a complete disaster off-screen toward the end of his first run in the late 90s...no one mentions that.
How many times has Randy Orton been suspended?? Rey Mysterio was implicated in the steroid/HGH scandal following Benoit's death. So was Edge. So was Angle.
Hardy definitely gets a bad rap. Because when the dude has been clean, he has been one of the best wrestlers & has proven to be a pretty significant draw. He's not Hulk Hogan or the Rock but people are drawn to him.
If TNA can get "good" Hardy, there is a lot of potential.
"A good heel is someone who THINKS that they're right, but they're actually totally wrong."
ReplyDeletedisagree on that. there is also great heels that are right but are so obnoxious about it that the fans will turn on him anyway (funny enough: Punk vs. Hardy is an example for this. Jericho vs. Michaels would also be a great feud that worked that way).
LT is a great example. He's still beloved even after getting caught having sex with an underage prostitute.
ReplyDeleteWhen Punk turned heel for the 1st time after being in the main event, it was against Hardy. Punk didn't understand how fans could cheer for a heroin addict, and he was making valid points, much like he is today about not being respected. So how is that heel turn different than this one? It's not...it's the popularity of the opponent that's different.
ReplyDeleteThere was a HUGE crowd difference between Punk screwing with Cena, and Punk giving the Rock a clothesline. Heel turns only work when the guy you turn on is crazy over with the fans.
Technically, with Smackdown and RAW supposedly being separate rosters, the WWE only has 2 hours of TV to fill for Smackdown and 3 for RAW.
ReplyDeleteI don't see a big difference except WWE goes into panic mode and instead of building a tag division or buildup their secondary titles by creating new stars, they simply have most of their stars work RAW and Smackdown. That's on them.
I agree 100% with this. HBK is Teflon. Never gets the he screws up label.
ReplyDelete" It's like people are waiting for him to fail."
ReplyDeletethis!
exactly. otherwise you could complain about Savage being turned instead of Hogan.
ReplyDeleteMy only gripe with your statement is this: Neither Austin Aries or James Storm are as popular as a face as Jeff Hardy. So why not give the fans a person to boo? Aries as heel is the best choice.
ReplyDeleteI totally feel the same way about TNA and Hardy, and if he wins the title at this PPV I'll be done with the promotion for good. My main issue is not the Victory Road incident, though that's a factor and I think he should have been blackballed for that shit. My problem is that the guy's just not that good. He made his career on the TLC matches, which featured Edge, Christian, and The Dudleys doing amazing shit and Jeff blowing most of his spots. Any push he's ever gotten from that point has been totally unwarranted, even today he's nothing more than a sloppy spot monkey with no mic skills and a look that appeals to 12-year old emo girls. He's nothing more than a whiter less-talented goofy looking version of Sabu, and there's a ton of indy guys who can to the same match, only better and without all the personal baggage.
ReplyDeleteThere's an old adage in wrestling and really, any entertainment form you wish to discuss, if you can draw and sell merch, you should get pushed. This isn't complicated, it's about making money. And sure, we have our favorite "workrate" guys and some guys who have been on top were awful talkers/wrestlers/whatever, but if they drew, they deserved the push.
ReplyDeleteHary is a draw.
"Shawn Michaels was a complete disaster off-screen toward the end of his first run in the late 90s...no one mentions that."
ReplyDeleteNo one mentions that? Since when? Besides, there's a big difference between all the guys you talk about and Hardy. All those guys are really good wrestlers (with the exception of Orton, and even he has his moments), Hardy is not.
how bout joe vs bully???
ReplyDeletehonestly with bullys win last ngiht I was maybe thinking 3 way dance for the title at BFG?
And if there is a schwerve I'm thinking Aries retains being the leader of Aces and 8's.
Thoughts??
I don't know if you aren't watching but they are in the midst of building a tag division right now.
ReplyDeleteI'm avoiding looking at the main article, but in case this contains spoilers, um... spoiler space and stuff, and not on the main page, too?
ReplyDeleteI saw the title and immediately looked away, and the only reason I'm making this post (again, without looking at the main content) is b/c on some news sites they've linked to articles about the plans for BfG, which means something might be mentioned in this thread.
If not, carry on, but if so... yeah, spoiler space and stuff.
Also, I can't even remember the last time Punk or Cena has been on Smackdown and those are their two biggest stars.
ReplyDeleteI agree with everything Scott said. I've been debating this issue with Worst_In_The_World on the Impact Rant thread and wanted to share my reasoning for why these situations aren't that similar here:
ReplyDeleteLook, you're used to being disappointed by wrestling companies. I am
too. They let us down constantly. But it really seems like Brother Love
& Lagana don't have their heads up their asses and I'm willing to
wait & see on this.
Aries has totally been top dog in TNA, in this case you have to take
story into account. A&8 are intruders, and thus far the most
relevant thing they've done is break Aries' arm; because he's the top
guy.
And seriously (and this is the part that constantly astonishes me)
HULK FUCKING HOGAN stands side by side with Austin Aries on a weekly
basis and calls him the best wrestler in the world. That means
something. Nobody has done that for Punk. HHH & the McMahons treat
him like shit if they share a segment together. The Rock barely mentions
him. That's why this isn't the same, Punk got to the top in the eyes of
the fans but the company refuses to acknowledge this. TNA treats Aries
like a made-man on TV, so if he were to turn heel it's actually
obnoxious b/c he was given the keys to the city, so to speak.
no spoilers in the main article just comparing & contrasting Aries/Hardy with Punk/Cena. anything about outcomes is just speculation.
ReplyDeleteBecause Punk was also forcing his beliefs on the crowd specifically in regards to cigarettes, alcohol, & marijuana. Hardy's M.O. was I am who I am and I'm not telling anyone to be like me. Punk's was if you're not like me you're a complete loser. He was completely up on his high horse. \
ReplyDeleteAlso during that feud JR was the commentator on SD and was very vocal about how he agrees with everything Punk is saying, but he goes about it the wrong way.
Saying Hardy is not a good wrestler is absurd. For proof watch his match with Samoa Joe from the week before the ppv.
ReplyDeleteI mentioned this and most people felt Hardy couldn't pull it off on the mic, which I partially agree with. But I'd like to see them go back to creepy heel Hardy as the leader of Ace's and 8's. If I had to pick a current guy on the roster I'd choose him. Turn him into the creepy Joker-like character, Ace's and 8's can be his henchmen, which solves the problem of how to keep them a threat once they're revealed as former WWE jobbers - you don't reveal them.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if Aries is necessarily turning heel - TNA occasionally turns faces into heels for a particular storyline and then back afterwards. I know that sounds like illogical Big Show booking but for the most part they don't really change the character, just add motivations or issues with another guy...but if he does turn heel, it's sort of a shit deal for Roode and Storm. Aries earned the title, no doubt, but if he's going heel anyway why not finally give Storm his moment?
Well, I don't watch smackdown and I fast forward through Raw, but I have seen some small strides in the division. I'm assuming with Bryan and Kane as champs, they'll be featured a bit more.
ReplyDeleteTrue, but Bryan, Kane, Orton, Sheamus, etc, etc are on both shows all the time.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you man. I'm making a concerted effort to avoid spoilers with TNA since I'm enjoying the show so much.
ReplyDeleteAnd seriously (and this is the part that constantly astonishes me) HULK FUCKING HOGAN stands side by side with Austin Aries on a weekly basis and calls him the best wrestler in the world. That means something. Nobody has done that for Punk. HHH & the McMahons treat him like shit if they share a segment together. The Rock barely mentionshim. That's why this isn't the same, Punk got to the top in the eyes ofthe fans but the company refuses to acknowledge this.
ReplyDeleteThis is so dead on, I feel like it needed to be re-posted in bold.
The Rock barely mentioning Punk built into the Punk feels disrespected story. Punk was holding up McMahon's company, and McMahon was caving to his ridiculous demands, that makes Punk look like a star.
ReplyDeleteIf they keep Aries as a 'tweener (which is really what Punk should be), like Flair was before Dusty took over the booking in the Crockett territories, it would work. Have Aries be the face against Bully Ray or Roode, have him be a subtle heel vs Hardy or Storm. Flair would be heel against Magnum and then face against Nikita back in '85, as an example Of course, they might go nuts and have Aries reveal that he was the mastermind behing A&8s; hopefully they will not do that.
ReplyDeleteIf Victory Road were Jeff's only mistake I would concede that you have a point. However, Jeff has been released from the WWE multiple times because he either failed drug tests or was unreliable due to his behavior. My question to you is when does it stop being "probation" and start being "we don't put the company's success on the shoulders a guy who has repeatedly screwed up his career because of his drug habits." It's the same reasoning that kept anyone from building their company around Jake the Snake. You just don't headline a show with a guy who has that pattern of behavior.
ReplyDeleteI think the best heels are the ones who respond unreasonably to legitimate gripes. Plus, Punk is way more interesting as a heel.
ReplyDeleteHe was starting to get it before he left in 98. But he went away for a few years, cleaned up his act and made himself more respectable. Give Hardy time where he doesn't make a mistake for a while, and he'll lose the screw-up label, too.
ReplyDeleteHow can somebody get tired of having too much Joseph Park / Abyss on TV? He has been the best character in all of TNA.. I want more of Park on TV. Not less.
ReplyDeleteYes, but Cena's promo @ Montreal was extremely counter productive and basically shit on Punk as champ as was having your WWE champion not headline a single show in 2012 until he wrestled Cena again only proving what Cena said was true.
ReplyDeletefair enough.
ReplyDeleteok, I'll agree with you regarding Vince, but Stephanie/HHH/Big Sexy made him look so shitty after Summer Slam last year I stopped watching
ReplyDeleteTrust me, you won't hear me defending the Triple H/Punk or Punk/Nash feuds, those were awful.
ReplyDeleteAm I the only one that doesn't think this is leading to an Aries heel turn? They might be teasing it, but I feel like Bound For Glory is going to end with a babyface handshake.
ReplyDeleteBut it's not like having sex with an underage prostitute is going to keep him out of the lineup on Sunday.
ReplyDeleteThere's two arguements against Hardy - the first is that he's unreliable and that's why they shouldn't push him, the second is that you shouldn't support him because of his past mistakes. I partially agree with the first one - it's not like being wasted at Victory Road was the only problem he's had. He's had problems for years. Seems to straighten up, or at least get it reasonably under control, then out of the blue he fails a Wellness test in the midst of the biggest push of his career, or misses a flight, or falls asleep before a match or his entire first run in TNA. Hardy being reliable has been an issue since 2003, so I can see why it might be a bad idea to put your faith in the idea that he's straightened up for good now.
But to get back to the LT example, if you like him, why do you have to stop liking him because he did something stupid? You should be able to like and support Jeff Hardy if you always have.
I love Joseph Park. I'd be down with Joseph Parks having Abyss-esque split personality disorder. But Abyss returning as a character, as The Monster Abyss... that's an instant channel changer for me.
ReplyDelete@Daniel:
ReplyDeleteListen, I agree with most of what you said. Would I do it and put the title and company on Hardy's shoulder? No. But he is there, he is popular and fans care for him. I cannot deny the marketability that he brings and what it could result in money made from merchandise.
"But to get back to the LT example, if you like him, why do you have to stop liking him because he did something stupid?"
ReplyDeleteThere has to be a line that gets crossed where you go from liking someone to not. Benoit certainly crossed that and LT did as well, in my book.
I can still respect their contributions to their profession, but I don't like them.
Fair enough. I see where you are coming from.
ReplyDeleteIf his DVDocumentary is to be believed I believe Shawn was actually sort of a cock up for quite awhile after. He would come back to shows and be difficult to work with, even as the commish, which is why he was so hard to keep on TV from 98- on.
ReplyDeleteI agree he is marketable. I just don't see why that means putting him in another PPV main event. Use him by all means, but not at that level is what I'm saying.
ReplyDeleteRight, Hardy is more popular than Aries or Storm. But shouldn't TNA take blame for that being the situation? Wrestling is at it's most entertaining (and popular) when there's a star that the whole fanbase can rally around. And for their entire existence, TNA fails at creating that star. Their focus should be exactly on making Storm or Aries, two relatively youngish wrestlers with high ceilings, into that big star. Instead they've pushed both of them aside (sticking Storm in the midcard, turning Aries heel or "heelish") in favor of building around the guy whose popularity is based solely on what he did in WWE. It's a vicious cycle of TNA saying "well these new guys aren't over enough!" when the problem is the booking not letting them get over.
ReplyDeleteSo yeah, Jeff Hardy as TNA's top face. Yay.
Hardy has burned his audience multiple times. He left WWE and went to TNA the first time because of drugs issues. Didn't clean up. He left WWE the second times because of drug issues. Didn't clean up. He showed up to Victory Road last year wasted, and they had to change the entire show because of him. So supposedly he cleaned up this time.
ReplyDeleteProblem is, I know people in my family who have had issues with drug abuse. Every time they said they were clean, they ended up falling off the wagon again. I have a brother who says he's almost a year clean now. I want to trust him because he's family, but he's stolen enough from my family that I can never fully trust him. Same goes with Hardy. He's done too much stupid shit, and ruined any good will I may have had, for me to ever cut the guy some slack. It's not being overbearing. It's protecting yourself. I don't want to get invested in a performer who is going to ruin my experience as a fan again. I've given Hardy probably a half dozen chances over the last decade and he's let me down every time.
If i had the slightest hope Aries would win, I would be supportive. Nothing wrong with Jeff putting guys over. But he won't. He will win the belt.
ReplyDeleteI gotta say, I am surprised that Scott and most commenters are totally out of hand dismissing the similar mistakes in the Punk/Cena and Aries/Hardy booking situations. (And again, I hated turning Punk in favor of SuperCena.) To me, it comes down to:
ReplyDelete- Heel legitimately gets over with the fanbase. They take to him in an unexpected but real way.
- Heel turns babyface. We should build the company around this guy!
- Wait, we gotta turn this guy heel again, so we can assure that the old star remains the hero/focus.
And in TNA's situation, the decision had the added bonus of cutting the legs out of Storm's face push as well. So that's TWO potential new face stars that would get affected by the Hardy push.
Anyway, I ask you this: If BFG ends with a heel (either Aries or Hardy) or a face Jeff Hardy holding the title, do you think that's a good decision? Do you want to see that as a viewer? Do you think that would help TNA widen it's fanbase? To me, "heel Aries or Hardy holds the title with help from his faction" just screams same old TNA shit. And face Hardy, the ex-WWE star, winning the title is same old shit as well.
Maybe Aries wins clean and they build around him. I just doubt it.
I think I'm the only one who doesn't care if their favorite wrestlers are faces or heels. I don't care about their "motivations". I don't care if they win or lose. I don't care if they're curtain jerking or main eventing. As long as they're cutting good promos and putting on good matches, I'm happy. Cena and Punk cutting great promos? Cena and Punk wrestling awesome matches? I'm satisfied.
ReplyDeleteJeff Hardy is the biggest star in TNA, and it's not even close. Plus the redemption story has legs to it. And Hardy is still young enough that provided you are getting the "good" Hardy, you can still build a promotion around him.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if you go into BFG with a face vs face match and Aries gets booed out of the building(a very real possibility), it would hurt TNA and Aries. Have Aries be a tweener/heel it up a bit for a month and do the respect/handshake deal afterwards. Everyone comes out a winner.
That's my ideal scenario.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I do agree with you about on this is that it's about damn time TNA gave a face a long title run.
ReplyDeleteI guess my thought is that Jeff Hardy shouldn't be in this match then, if you're worried about the "face Aries gets booed" scenario. Aries-Joe or Aries-Bully would have been much more effective at pushing Aries as the lead face. Or, they could have done Storm-Roode for the title.
ReplyDeleteAnd as for Hardy, what has his popularity done for TNA in the 2-3 years he's been there? Ratings are flat or down from when he got there. PPV buys are down from 3 years ago, and they've always been tiny. We keep hearing he moves merchandise.... but compared to what? If TNA's merch sales are low all around, but Hardy's are the highest, does that make him a big star or just the tallest midget?
OK, maybe those points are harsh. All I'm saying is for how much Hardy has moved the TNA needle compared to his risk factor, I think it's a bad business decision to build the company around him rather than the other options.
And just as a pro wrestling viewer, Hardy as the face of the company equals me turning TNA off once again. It's not even so much that I can't stand Hardy. It's just I feel that I've seen all he has to offer. He's been around for fucking ever. TNA should have focused on something new, ya know?
"It's not even so much that I can't stand Hardy. It's just I feel that I've seen all he has to offer. He's been around for fucking ever. TNA should have focused on something new, ya know? "
ReplyDeleteDo you still watch WWE?
Totally. They've NEVER had a Hogan/Austin/Cena type situation where the whole program revolved around a popular face. Which is nuts because when that plan works, it's the one that brings in the most fans/money.
ReplyDeleteYou're not the only one. I know we've been conditioned by WWE to assume the worst, but TNA's done nothing in the last six months to warrant suspicion from me. Was Aries being kind of an overcompensating cocky dick in that backstage segment? Yeah, that's kind of his gimmick. He's always an overcompensating cocky dick, it's what turned him face in the first place. And unlike Punk, Aries character hasn't been neutered since turning face, so this tweener behavior is perfectly consistent for him.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I'm being naive, but I think he's just "playing the heel" in this face-face program, because he's better suited to it than Hardy (which also would've made sense for Punk-Cena). I also think Aries is going over clean as sheet, and, yes, that BFG is ending with a babyface handshake. If not, one backstage segment isn't enough to make me think otherwise yet.
NWO and Hollywood Hogan may disagree here.
ReplyDeleteTo me, I am tired of everyone talking about how much they respect each other and this and that. These guys are supposed to be fighting and wanting to beat each other, that usually leads to trash talk, not talk of you are amazing, you are so great, I want to beat you, did I mention how great you are?
ReplyDeleteTrue true.
ReplyDeleteBut part of that success was also the fans anticipating Sting finally bringing them down. When that didn't happen, and it became clear it was going to be heels on top forever, interest started to decline.
That said, you're right. NWO were heels who printed money.
And all that aside, TNA has spent their entire existence trying to recapture NWO and Hollywood Hogan. (Jarrett's forever reign, Main Event Mafia, The Band, Immortal). Ending BFG with a heel champ and Aces & 8s standing tall is just same old Hogan/Bisch/TNA shit.
I'm kinda shocked by this thread and the comments. Aries works best as a heel. He's like one of the best in the world at it. As a face, he plays a good pissed-off face looking to get revenge, but you can't really build a promotion around that.
ReplyDeleteMake Aries a face and give him a heel stable with Kenny King and it will be more entertaining.
Right. And I've noted the parallel between the Hardy/Aries and Punk/Cena situations. They're both shitty, and yes I'm sick of Cena.
ReplyDeleteThat said, to me, TNA is the company with smaller room for error. I'm already predisposed to watching WWE based on, I dunno, 25 years of watching them and them providing lots of stuff I've enjoyed. On the other hand, TNA has been horrible every time I've checked in over the years. The built in goodwill isn't there.
Listen, I want TNA to be awesome. But if they're gonna make the same bad booking decisions as WWE and present a product with the same problems, then the tie goes to the promotion with Wrestlemania. For me, at least.
I do agree with Scott's comments about the Punk-Cena storyline.
ReplyDeleteThis could be TNA just taking the long way to get where they wanted to. Megaface Hardy loses to smarmy heel Aries. Storm beats Roode on the same night. Then they transition to face Storm vs. heel Aries. The only downside is that Storm doesn't become the face of the company on the biggest show of the year.
ReplyDeleteI am great, thank you. :-)
ReplyDeleteI agree that promos need more "teeth". However, you can do that without shitting on your opponent, you know, the guy you're supposed to draw money with.
Watch a Flair promo from the 80s at the ARt of insulting and selling your opponent at the same time.
Joe is probably taking on Magnus, which can be good if they're both motivated.
ReplyDeletePlus, if Sorensen was able to return, it'd be some great storyline for the BFG, but since it's not happening, I would like if they do some cruiserweight open-like for the X-Division belt.
I think you are thinking too much about it. I respect your opinion about Hardy but it is not the end of the world if Hardy walks out as champ. I don't really see him hurting them this time around. I really don't.
ReplyDeleteYeah, it all culminated in 2001 where he was supposed to make his comeback in a program against HHH at WrestleMania X7 but showed up to a meeting pilled out of his mind, went off on HHH, killing their friendship for about a year in the process, and then nearly OD'd at his house.
ReplyDeleteListen, if Jeff Hardy as potential champion turns you off, that's fine. It's within your right to not support that. I respect that.
ReplyDeleteBut to be fair, it does not seem like they were going to get your vote of approval anyway.
Also, to goes back to a friend of mine who has said that he does no watch TNA until Hogan and Bischoff are gone. I cannot let one personality prevent me from watching a wrestling show. Same for Hardy. I cannot let my disapproval with Hardy's personal issues prevent me from watching TNA.
You makes several great points. I cannot disagree at all with anything you said.
ReplyDeleteRe: Weyer- "I think you are thinking too much about it."
ReplyDeleteUhm, definitely. Hahaha. Just one of those days when I can't bring myself to do any actual work.
So yeah, I hate the idea of Hardy winning for all the reasons I've stated. But at the same time... let's see how this plays out.
I agree. In all honesty, I would like to see Aries bring a little Austin Starr in his current persona.
ReplyDeleteNot even the cast of "Birdemic" would defend those storylines.
ReplyDeleteNice. I like that.
ReplyDelete100% agree with everything you said.
ReplyDeleteHey, and if something does happen with Hardy and he does flake out at BFG, trust me, I won't be defending him anymore. I would leave that job for someone else. Believe me.
ReplyDeleteVery, very true. Flair would heckle Ricky Steamboat for being a goody two-shoes but he never once said that Steamboat had no talent or that Steamboat wasn't worthy of being in the main event with him.
ReplyDeleteThere's not really any spoilers since Impact is live every week, a definite contrast from last year when we found out who the second incarnation of "They" were about three weeks before it aired, so TNA has definitely gotten better at ixnaying bad storylines ever since they decided to go live every week permanently whereas in the past they couldn't scrap Russo's many stupid ideas due to the fact that those shows were already in the can (In the toilet would have been a more appropriate place to put those shows).
ReplyDeleteSteve Austin too didn't had that long title reign like Hogan or Cena and it worked too.
ReplyDeleteI still love how much of a hypocrite Cena appeared when he claimed "Punk stole the elbow from the great Randy Savage".
ReplyDeleteThey couldn't have had Punk mention Rock, Eddie, and countless others doing moves to pay homage to a wrestler that passed on?
My only problem with it is that I honestly do not think Hardy deserves it. I don't care if he's squeeky clean and his only addiction is breath mints, guy showed up trashed to a main event. As much as I think WWE goes overboard with making examples of wrestlers that don't toe the company line, this is a time it would be warranted.
ReplyDeleteBut because Hardy fans are the biggest sheep and were making excuses for the asshole the night it happened, he sells merch, and because he sells merch, it'll take nothing less than OD'ing to get him out of the main event.
Seriously, Hulk Hogan. That's all.
ReplyDeleteWhere are the legends telling Punk he's the Best in the World? Remember how they always made sure to have Flair remind everyone of how great Triple H was?
That's why it bothered me so much to see Bret of all people tell Cena he's more Bret Hart to Punk's Shawn Michaels. If anything, it's the exact opposite. In 1997, especially when Bret was champion, Shawn's stuff was more important.
"And in all of this, TNA blew their chance to make James Storm into
ReplyDeletethe undisputed face of the company. Instead they've branded Storm a
loser (Lockdown, BFG Series with a 20-point opening lead) and paired him
off in a midcard match against an incredibly cold Bobby Roode. This
isn't Roode coming off a year long title reign. Instead it's Roode
coming off back-to-back PPV loses and no big wins in months. Christ,
their feud was infinitely hotter a year ago. Isn't the point of a
slow-burn to make the feud hotter, rather than cool it off?"I don't get this comment at all.. Look at Beer Money a year ago. They were the "enforcers" of Fourtune.In the BFG series, Robert Roode was the plucky babyface with no real character except he was a hard worker and had a broken arm. James Storm was a goofball who drank beer. Fast forward a year later under Hogan and Bischoff, James Storm actually has a character that suits him (pissed off redneck), Roode is coming off the longest world title reign in TNA history, and actually developed a character besides the lame "Money" gimmick he had years ago. Most of all both have been booked to be able to hold their own and have credibility.I like TNA making you wait for James Storm to win the belt, first he has to dispose of Roode his major roadblock, jealous ex-partner who will do anything to prevent Storm from winning the belt, then Storm can go on to win it and it will blow the roof off the place. This ain't WWE where some random who gets 2-3 good pops is a main eventer before ever having a legitimate feud. Also I'd like to point out to all the Hogan/Bischoff haters out there Austin Aries, Storm, Roode, AJ Styles, Daniels, Kaz, are all featured performers and have grown more in 1 year character wise than any of them did in their entire careers. That makes them interesting, not some random spot monkey doing 720 reverse flip move x9321 to get a small pop.
Winner winner chicken dinner. I think that it's a "soft turn" and he'll be back to his babyface ways the night after. I thought the same thing about Punk but that's probably out the window now.
ReplyDeleteYeah, never insult the ability of your opponents, insult their parentage, their birth, their education, their dress style, their religion, their politics and their friends.
ReplyDeleteI don't really see how you can call anyone in TNA a draw when TNA doesn't make any money. You can say that WCW didn't make money too, but that's because they overspent like crazy, TNA barely has any revenue at all. They don't charge for TV shows and most PPVs, they average less than 10,000 buys for PPV, and have tiny house show crowds. Impact's ratings haven't gone up. They've never came close to bringing in a profit. And for all the talk that Hardy sells merch, maybe it's because I live up North and TNA is a southern company, but I've never seen it, I've never seen anyone with any kind of TNA shirt. I see people with CM Punk shirts every time I go out of the house, I even see plenty of people wearing shirts of wrestlers and promotions (Micheals, DX, ECW, etc...) that aren't even active. And I highly doubt they're selling too many DVDs. So what, exactly, is Hardy or anyone else from TNA drawing? Because it certainly doesn't appear to be money.
ReplyDeleteNobody had long title reigns then.
ReplyDeleteIn many ways I agree, but on the other hand, it disappoints me when my favorite wrestlers are heels cause I don't especially enjoy watching Punk or Bryan eat pin-falls match after match after match.
ReplyDeletefuckin' THIS all the way
ReplyDeleteI love The Joker. I don't get mad when gets he caught at the end of the movie.
ReplyDeleteYou may be right about TNA and their financials but you're guessing, 100%. They Are a private company and unless you can produce some financial statements, you have no idea.
ReplyDeleteAs for seeing wrestling shirts outside of a wrestling show, I never see any of them, ever and I live in Miami.
And there you have it. He gets caught in the end. The Joker didn't get pinned 5 minutes into the movie. He ruled the movie for 2 hours, upstaged every one else three quarters of the movie and it kept you hooked and the more cruel he got, the way he killed Batmans innocent girl and turned a rightous man into a monster made you want the people on the boat prove him wrong and see Batman smash his face in....in the end! If I watched a movie where The Joker got pinned scene after scene after scene. I would start hating this big tall guy who flexes his muscles and start cheering for this little creep which gets his ass kicked every 5 minutes.
ReplyDeleteWho are you comparing Joker to? Punk? Punk rarely jobs these days.
ReplyDeleteBut Punk isn't the Joker, he's not a heel, and he hasn't done anything unreasonable or evil, he is the face, and when the villain wins all the fucking time, what's the point?
ReplyDeleteThe more I think about it, the more alright I am with it. The best shows don't have everything front loaded in just one match. If you can have a hated blood feud match AND an intriguing world title match in the same show, that makes for a better, more well-rounded show. I'm hoping that's what they realized. They've got what, 5 weeks?, to make the Aries/Hardy match into something, which is plenty of time and it already has a logical starting point (Hardy wins tournament to get the shot, forcing Aries to reveal a jealousy of Hardy had had managed to keep hidden before.) As for Storm/Roode, now that Roode has literally screwed Storm at EVERY turn and the title is an afterthought, all Storm wants is blood now and Roode, being the heel, has unwittingly screwed himself into having to face the monster he created.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying they WON'T fuck it all up, or that there were better scenarios to unfold, but for what it is it's perfectly fine and can be molded into something pretty great if done right.
He draws eyes on his eyelids.
ReplyDeleteI agree. I've stated my feelings on Hardy. The main thing is he needs to resign. Secondly he needs to prove that he can be relied on.
ReplyDeletePut the X Division title on him and give him the shot at Aries at Destination X next year. After a few months of working with young talent and established stars we'll know if he's serious or not.
you had to go and mention that movie
ReplyDeleteYeah - I can't remember anyone getting reign as long as say, Diesel's, during the Attitude era. Maybe Michaels after Montreal.
ReplyDeleteI've thought before that I don't think The Rock (for example) would have been so popular if he'd been dominant with the title. Him proclaiming his 'greatness' as a challenger is inspiring and charismatic. If he was always on top and always saying he was that damn good, he'd just be HHH.
I think the main thing that irritates me about Cena in this is his "you have the title by any means necessary" line. He's been a face for 99% of his run, the only questionable defense he's had was the MitB cash-in when he let Big Show interfere, so it's not like he's been cheating to keep it. What, he took advantage of a three-way match where a lot of the buildup was based on him being at a disadvantage? As interesting a point as the "there is no CM Punk" thing could be, the rest is just poor form on Cena's part.
ReplyDelete