Inspired by Chris Jericho's most recent run, how does it compare with the some of the most disappointing runs in WWE history, at least in the modern era (Hulkamania onward)
Ric Flair '92 - BY FAR the biggest star Mcmahon acquired to that point, but the run left a lot to be desired, most notably WM8 vs Hulk Hogan.
Ultimate Warrior '96 - biggest mis-match in terms of star power : financial/creative gain
Goldberg '03 - 2 years (at least) too late. If his debut had occured after WM X-7 in the same fashion but with the newly heel Austin on the recieving end it would have been HUGE, even if the WWF crowd would have turned Austin face again in about 5 minutes!
Nexus - Shoulda/Woulda/Coulda been big, but mis-managed.
Brock Lesnar '12 - He's pretty much just another 'rassler at this point as opposed to the biggest star in MMA.
There are numerous others of course...
Thank you kindly!
I don't think Jericho himself really wanted his latest run to be JERICHO'S BIG RETURN or anything. I've heard that Vince came up with the trolling angle to start out, whereas Jericho's intentions were really just to put some people over and have fun with it. So it's hard to classify it as a disappointment in some respects. However, from the standpoint of the big return videos and hype about it, it was definitely disappointing seeing him go out there and kind of flail around aimlessly after the initial Punk run.
Flair's initial run was mostly disappointing because after all the buildup, he just didn't fit in and I think everyone knew it. He was Ric Flair alone among the rest of the WWF circus and he just didn't have anyone to play off.
I think Goldberg is the biggest disappointment because fans waited two years to see him and they got this guy who was just collecting a payday and ended up the same victim of HHH like everyone else in the end.
Never understood why they didn't rip off the Horseman in 92/93 with Flair, Heenan, Perfect, Ramon, and Michaels. Flair was even indirectly responsible for the Rockers breakup so it would have made sense storyline wise.
ReplyDeleteWow, pretty awesome stable, never thought of those guys teaming before.
ReplyDeleteI didn't think the Flair run back in the day was disappointing, and I didn't think the Jericho run this last year was, either.
ReplyDeleteBret's WCW run is the definition of disappointment.
ReplyDeleteI have to disagree on Flair's run it was tremendous. WM 8 was a miss for Hogan, but Flair and Savage tore down in the most under rated WM match ever. Royal Rumble 92 is still the best by far, and he had some pretty good matches + 2 World championships.
ReplyDeleteScott Steiner's WWE was a huge miss, which I blame on his babyface status.
The Goldberg run is doubly disappointing because after all their missteps with the character (remember Goldust putting a wig on him = COMEDY?), they finally figured it out and the audience was frothing for him to lay waste to everyone and everything. Then HHH.
ReplyDeleteWhile not a star in the least, the ideas for Rico Constantino really wasted a guy who seemsto just have been good at everything.
I'd still venture to call Jericho's latest run a disappointment, if only because they tried to do so much with him and it was all just so half-cooked. Honestly it would have been an improvement for him to just make a return with a minimum of hype and basically stick to his previous character. Trying to go for the "enigmatic buildup to a debut promo" well a third time kind of killed him, even with the new wrinkle of not having him actually say anything.
ReplyDeleteJust listening to an ep of the Place To Be pocast and got me thinking that Ahmed's return after his kidney injury was disappointing. In 1996 it really seemed like they were gonna revolve the company around Ahmed in the future and then when he returned in 1997, he pretty much became just another wrestler stuck in the midcard.
ReplyDeleteThis year's Brock run has been awful. Once he lost to Cena, it was over.
ReplyDeleteBarry Windham as the Widowmaker in 1989 was a failure. Talk about something that went nowhere.
Superstar Billy Graham, in the 80's. Blew out his hip on a bear hug, Then got beat up by the One Man Gang, and Butch Reed. Then got beat up by Greg Valentine. Then managed an over the hill Don Mouraco. Yeah...I'd say that run didn't go to well.
ReplyDeleteI agree with that Widowmaker pick. Besides, with a name like that, you can only go so far, lol.
ReplyDeleteThe nWo's WWE run in 2002. Vince brought them in to destroy his company but they weren't doing any of the things they were known for in WCW, they were just another heel faction. Hogan turning face, Hall getting fired, Nash tearing his quad, members that made no sense like Booker and Shawn, the whole thing was a total mess.
ReplyDeleteI've always agreed that the way they handled Goldberg was a disappointment. The way they announced him was disappointing (doing it in the middle of Wrestlemania, come on now). It would've worked a little better had it been a total surprise on Raw the night after. And I agree with the initial poster's comment about him debuting after Mania 17 and how big it would've been, but then you open up another can of worms because the first ever Austin vs. Goldberg match would've been too big for any other PPV, definitely Wrestlemania worthy.
ReplyDeleteGood call on Steiner. They shouldn't even bothered with him. Regarding Flair, I don't think his first tenure with the WWF was a disappointment either. It was very good imo.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely. They COMPLETELY dropped the ball with Bret.
ReplyDeleteGreat call on Rico. He did some amazing stuff in OVW but wasn't given a chance to shine in WWE.
ReplyDeleteLegion of Doom (Road Warriors) initial run in WWF. Rocco?
ReplyDeleteAs far as Brock's "failed run"...
ReplyDeleteListen, there's a LOT that WWE does wrong in their booking, production, personnel decisions, etc etc. A LOT. But when it comes to the Brock run, I really find it hard to fault them much other than to perhaps say they shouldn't have brought him back in the first place.
Not to sound like some sort of WWE fanbot, but Brock does not want to be there, and it shows onscreen. He is signed to a bare amount of appearances and matches. (Remember when he signed and the assumption here was he'd be doing TV 2-3 times a month plus every PPV?) In a business-model built around weekly TV and ongoing storylines, what could they possibly do with a guy who is never available? You can't make him the monster terrorizing the WWE or the focus of the storylines, because he's barely going to be on the shows. I can fault them for ever allowing themselves to buy into such a one-sided deal, but I can't fault them for not making him the focus of their promotion.
In fact, I actually don't disagree with the whole "job him out every match" scenario— I just think that instead of jobbing hm to Cena (and eventually HHH or Taker), they should have built up 2-3 matches with Lesnar and some of the "newer" stars such as Sheamus, Punk, and Bryan. Have Lesnar job clean to the new guys, and send him on his way.
I don't think we can judge brocks run until its over. So far he's had an amazing match with cena and a ok match with huntor. I honestly just wish they had put him with guys that can work but I understand the thinking behind huntor v brock as a super match. He has six matches left on his contract so I say lets wait and see what he does with them. Maybe it can still be salvaged. I'm sure creatively it will be garbage but if brock knocks out six more matches like at er 12 I'm cool with that.
ReplyDeleteWait, so you're saying...let's see how this plays out??? No way man, this is the internet! I refuse!
ReplyDeleteBut yeah, good point. And it's true— it's hard to call the run a total disappointment when one of his few appearances resulted in one of the most entertaining, fascinating wrestling matches ever.
Anyway, I know it's considered "gay" around here, but my attempt at fantasy booking what I think would be a decent, logical way to end Brock's run:
- Brock costs Cena the HIAC match against Punk (provided that match takes place)
- Survivor Series features Cena/HHH vs Brock/Punk, or some kind of 4x4 elimination match or WARGAMES involving those four
- Brock destroys Hunter AGAIN
- HHH's destruction pisses off Sheamus
- Brock beats up Sheamus. Dolph cashes in for the WHC!
- Sheamus defeats Brock at Mania
- HHH can pedigree Brock on Raw the next night. Bye bye Brock!
OK, back to work...
Sid Justice. I thought the dude was going to be the next Hulk Hogan when he debuted in Summerslam 1991.
ReplyDeleteRaven in the WWE. I thought Raven was going to be a big player in the WWE attitude era when he made his debut in 1999.
ReplyDelete*Totally*. I did too!!
ReplyDeleteTaz had a great debut for the WWE in January 2000. Nothing much after that, though he became an announcer.
ReplyDeleteI was actually geeked up for the debut of the Patriot, having been a fan of his work on the independent wrestling scene. He debuted immediately in a feud with Bret Hart. After that, not much else.
They could do a lot worse than using brock to put over shameus. Personally I want to see rock v brock at wm29. Imo that's the biggest possible match in wrestling.
ReplyDeleteCould they have stretched it out for a year by making Goldberg go through a series of heels (whether Vince's cronies if the InVasion hadn't happened or The Alliance if it did anyway) to get to Austin?
ReplyDeleteAt that point, I don't think they could've stretched it out for a year if they tried. We likely would've got it at Summerslam.
ReplyDeleteWhat a night that was for Sid. But he totally dropped the ball for whatever reason or reasons.
ReplyDeleteHow can I forget this guy:
ReplyDeleteVal friggin Venis! Those vignettes. How did he not become a star?
I think he debuted in 2000--he jumped to ECW in 1999, IIRC.
ReplyDeleteI think the End of the World thing, was going to be something big, but then Vince put his hands in it too much and it blew up just as it was getting started. But once Jericho started talking, it became a disappointment purely for the build up involved.
ReplyDeleteI hated the Road Warriors in the WWF. Everything that I loved about them in the NWA seemed to get lost once they made the jump.
ReplyDeleteI would have loved to have seen the Hogan/Macho program had Billy Graham not injured his hip. Tag him up with Hogan and then have Billy slowly grow jealous and go all heel on him.
ReplyDeleteThanks. Much appreciated. Yeah you are right, he left WCW in August of 1999, then went to ECW before signing on with the WWE.
ReplyDeleteHe debuted helping out Tazz in his feud with Jerry Lawler, which sort of doomed them both.
ReplyDeleteReally? When Brock showed up on RAW the night after Mania, the net and the fan base EXPLODED! It was a huge deal and felt like things were finally getting a shake-up. Now? We are talking about how he can put over a couple people and go? Even if that is the best we ever could have reasonably hoped for, it is a HUGE step down from the initial impact and expectations of his arrival. By those standards Goldberg was super successful, too, during his time with the WWE: he came, won a few matches, put over Huntor, left. It just shows how bland, aimless and unambitious the WWE has become.
ReplyDeleteI liked Sean O'Haire's "I'm Not Telling You Anything You Don't Already Know" vignettes but then he got paired with Piper and it just never seemed to work. Maybe if they'd aligned him with Jericho instead?
ReplyDeleteThey should have used as many appearances as possible for pay per view matches. I said this before on here - The Hollywood Hogan model with Brock as champ would have been the ideal scenario. Instead he's gets wasted on 20 minute masturbatory interview / segments on Raw.
ReplyDeleteThose vignettes ruled!
ReplyDeleteThose vignettes were great, but I think they were just too good. I mean, once he debuted, what was he supposed to do? I don't know if it says something about just how good the hype videos were, or how bad Sean O'Haire ended up doing, but I can't think of a single thing that happened after he debuted. Like, no matches, no interactions, NOTHING.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely a huge disappointment. He had a crazy good debut against Kurt Angle and that was pretty much the only memorable day of his whole run there. I'm gonna hazard a guess and say he just wasn't tall enough.
ReplyDeleteKaval, anyone? I'd been a fan of Low-Ki's pretty much since he started - in 2000 I had never seen anyone do stuff like he was doing (I'd also never seen Japanese wrestling, so there ya go). As soon as he started in WWE, it was like he and management both simultaneously thought "what the fuck am I DOING?" and both just gave up.
ReplyDeleteI read somewhere that when Vince McMahon saw Raven in the locker room he went up to Michael Hayes and said "who the fuck hired Johnny Polo?"
ReplyDeleteIt's a shame, the Raven character would have been great in programs with Undertaker, Kane, The Hardyz etc
Also, the debuts of Dean Malenko, Perry Saturn, Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero all coming into the WWE in unison about a week later pretty much put Taz on the back burner.
ReplyDeleteThe Great Sasuke. Nuff said.
ReplyDeleteObligatory Invasion post.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Booker T's feud with Triple H, culminating in his lost in what, WM 19?
And then wish death on Chris Jericho in one of the most bizarre poems/rants ever. Wait, he did end up actually doing that.
ReplyDeleteIt certainly was Wrestlemania 19, and if there ever was a time to put Booker over, it would've been here, but sadly that didn't happen.
ReplyDeleteAnyone remember Mordecai? He was given a lot of hype with his vignettes. Debuts to a lackluster response from fans.
ReplyDeleteGiven how quickly Tazz stopped wrestling after he debuted, I wouldn't be surprised if he knew that his days in the ring were numbered & just wanted to have said he wrestled for the WWF/E. Given how long he stayed employed, I'd say he was pretty successful.
ReplyDeleteI'd throw Dusty Rhode's WWF character assassination run into the hat for an honorable mention.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying it's not a letdown from what we WANTED to happen. I'm just saying it's the reality of the contract he signed. He just isn't on enough shows and wrestling enough matches to be some kind of nWo-esque gamechanger. With 3-4 matches and a dozen TV appearances over the course of a year, yeah I think the move should have been to use him to put Punk/Sheamus/Bryan over.
ReplyDeleteNow if Brock actually had signed a Goldberg in 2003 deal, where he wrestled regularly and appeared on TV every week, then yeah make him the focus of the promotion for a year. But that's not what happened.
I disagree with most of this email. Flair was WWF champion two times and had the memorable WM match with Savage, I don't think his run was that bad.
ReplyDeleteAlso, to me Nexus wasn't a disappointment, they turned 8 nobodies into somebodies overnight, and got a lot of mileage out of the group.
Kizarny is the biggest disappointment, guy had start written all over him.
ReplyDeleteAll kidding aside, Bret's run in WCW was the most disappointing ever. Guy was hot after Montreal and they completely botched him, turning him heel/face 1600 times.
ReplyDeleteHe convinced Brian Kendrick to streak through Philadelphia and convinced Dawn Marie to flash the crowd.
ReplyDeleteThat's it.
Then they dropped the gimmick and he paired up with Piper.
i liked the stock footage of the hotdog being placed in the bun.
ReplyDeleteYou know what? I think Rock vs anyone is the biggest match in wrestling. Do you really think that, at Mania, Rock vs Lesnar is a bigger draw than Rock/Cena II, Rock/Punk, or Rock/Taker? Personally, I don't. Rock's the wrestling draw, not Lesnar.
ReplyDeleteMy opinion is that lesnar's drawing power in WRESTLING is being overblown. Hardcore UFC fans aren't gonna order a show to watch him "fake fight", even if it's against a movie star. And to wrestling fans, I don't know how much he means beyond that first match.
Maybe I'm just overly anti-Lesnar-in-WWE at this point, but I just wanna see him be fed to a new star and be gone. Fuck, I wouldn't be against the idea of having Ryback squash him.
I don't know that Nexus could have done all that much more. You took a bunch of guys that were super green and made a stable. Too much too soon. Yeah, the Cena beat down was awesome, but what would've been the right payoff to the angle?
ReplyDeleteObviously the answer is WCW. So many ways this could have been done.
I'm sorry, but that is awesome that Vince even remembered Johnny Polo.
ReplyDeleteBut Dusty spun that shit into gold. Dude was over despite all of the burial.
ReplyDeleteAdd to that the Sean O'Haire Devil's Advocate gimmick.
ReplyDeleteO'Haire should've been a guy that played mind games and turned guys heel.
ReplyDeleteJericho's run was fine, he put a guy (Punk) over as best as someone like Jericho is able to and had some good to great matches. Calling it a 'disappointment' cause he didn't win the Rumble or Punk didn't get that huge of a rub is wrong.
ReplyDeleteFor some reason people were really over-inflating Jericho's stature in the industry as news of his return came in. They built up their expectations to unreasonable levels for a guy who is a definite step below the "elites" (Austin, Taker, Rock, HBK, etc). His WM program wasn't bad, it just got overshadowed by 2 programs featuring more higher profile stars.
And I'll go to my grave saying that the scenario that had him winning the Rumble without doing anything was a stupid idea that would've devalued one of the few prestigious events they still have.
I thought it was a cool name. It should've just been a nickname, like "The Widowmaker" Barry Windham. Certainly better than The Stalker at any rate.
ReplyDeleteFlairs wwf run basically made me a wrestlingfan. I thought he and heenan and perfect were a fucking epic combo
ReplyDeleteNow "The Widowmaker" Barry Windham has a much better ring to it than just going by the Widowmaker. Smh+lol @ the name "Stalker".
ReplyDeleteWARGAMES! (always spelled as such) with Cena, HHH, Sheamus, and Orton vs. Punk, Brock, Bryan, and Kane would be the best thing they've done all year.
ReplyDeleteI think he might have called him Raven outright. Either way, Vince was not a fan in general and didn't want him working for the company. Still managed to keep him employed for three more years though so apparently he didn't have too much conviction about it.
ReplyDeleteFor all the Glitz n Glam at the time how about Glacier???
ReplyDeleteMatt Hardy's return to the WWE after the Edge / Lita affair. Matt was the most popular guy among internet fans and WWE fans in general because of what went down with Edge and Lita.
ReplyDeleteHe became a martyr for cheated boyfriends. He comes back and feuds with Edge. After that did not really do much except for a good series of matches with MVP.
I still question why they decided to close out the PPV with Hogan/Sid because of the Ultimate Warrior run-in rather than the feel good ending of Savage and Elizabeth celebrating with the title?
ReplyDeleteI don't think he really would have been anything in the WWF. Too small, doesn't talk, didn't have too many guys to work with, and masked wrestlers (with the exception of Rey Jr, who was already a pretty big star before he came to the WWE) don't get over in the WWF/E. Besides, even if he got some sort of push he probably would have went back to Japan anyway. He's a big deal over there, to the point where he's been elected to the Japanese parliament, or whatever they call it in Japan, and he used to run M-Pro. I'm assuming he got paid better there too.
ReplyDeleteNow Hakushi, that was a different story. He had the look, and was doing some amazing shit in the ring for 1995, but just became another Clique victim.
Yep, Hardy basically sabotaged himself with that awful first promo.
ReplyDeleteMan, that one was sad. He won NXT, he seemed to be slated right into the Smackdown midcard, and then they had him use his guaranteed title shot for an IC title match against Ziggler that he lost. Then they wanted to launch MVP & him as a team and then both guys left the company within weeks of it. Something serious must have been said to make him think so quickly that it wasn't worth it being in WWE. Of course, at best he'd have just been doing what Sin Cara does now, so I don't think he really missed much. More money to be made in Japan where he can be a legit star.
ReplyDeleteSin Cara. All the hype for that guy. What a waste of TV time and money.
ReplyDeleteIt still amazes me that they can't get the psycho ex-con gimmick over. Nailz, Crush, and Nathan Jones all seemed like easy layups and they all got scrubbed. In Jones' case of course it was because he couldn't wrestle at all.
ReplyDeleteHe was disappointing right from his first match. They were running those video packages for months, but as soon as he debuted it took about 30 seconds to see that he sucked.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Sasuke really wasn't that good.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Jericho's run produced a bunch of excellent PPV matches, he gave Punk a very credible Mania opponent, put over Sheamus, Dolph, Punk etc, AND in the end he's no less popular now then he was before. Whenever he does come back as Y2J he'll get a huge pop, slide right into being a main event face, and have an insta-feud with Dolph. I agree, it was a fine run.
ReplyDeleteThe problem, sort of like Brock, was creating expectations that they weren't ina position to deliver. In retrospect, if they weren't ready to have Jericho win the Rumble and make Punk-Jericho be the focus of Raw, then they shouldn't have even done the vignettes. Just have Jericho appear unannounced, attack Punk, and let them have their very good midcard feud. The vignettes built up the expectation that the debuting wrestler was going to be THE GUY that the top storylines would revolve around. Since that wasn't the plan, they should have debuted him ina more subtle way.
That said, I still think Jericho winning the Rumble and Sheamus winning his title shot in a hard-fought Elimination Chamber match would have made both those Mania title matches mean more.
haha but his entrance was EPIC!!!
ReplyDeleteTaz wasn't good enough to hang with the WCW guys that were moving over. He cut mediocre promos, and when he was put in situations where he actually had to *gasp* sell moves, he was totally exposed. Like Goldberg, but not as over or money-drawing in any way.
ReplyDeleteUltimo Dragon's WWE run?
ReplyDeleteNo....it was scripted for McMahon to come down and shake Hardy's hand...the opposite of a hot rebel character. Didn't help that they had edge beat him every time and leave him laying.
ReplyDeleteAnd the big screw. He had one of the best Tron videos ever.
ReplyDeleteagreed I loved Flairs WWF run! Love the promo after losing the match at WM 8, with the platium blonde locks now a dark crimson still stylin' n profilin.'
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Plus, his vignettes were too similar to Rey Mysterio's vignettes.
ReplyDeleteHe was a star! He was a top midcard act for 98 and 99. As soon ad Russo left they didn't know what to do with him.
ReplyDeleteI'm gonna agree with someone below and say Raven, but not only for the WWF run (where they dropped the ball by making him a lackey for the inferior Taz), but even for his WCW run, which I loved. There was a point in the first half of 1998 where Raven was legitimately the most over heel on the roster (besides possibly Jericho ... I think he'd surpassed Hogan in drawing the fans' ire). For whatever reason (drugs, management incompetence, whatever), WCW just killed Raven's push after the Goldberg loss and never capitalized on the cult leader persona to the degree that was possible.
ReplyDeleteI really think Bryan getting fired was a difference maker. He would have been the guy who could have been put over as a legit threat and a workhorse in PPV matches.
ReplyDeleteIn retrospect, it sucked that WWE didn't have the Nexus idea BEFORE they put together the NXT Season 1 cast, because then they could have filled the group with some ROH ringers. Were Cesaro, Tyler Black, and Chris Hero in developmental at that point? Those guys with Barrett, Gabriel, a healthy Skip/Ryback, and Daniel Bryan certainly could have had the skill/presence to be a long-term threat.
WCW had NO IDEA what to do with Bret.
ReplyDeleteI really hate the way creative makes goofy characters. The moment I saw Rico i imagined a loner wolverine type character. Instead we get an unbelievable over the top cartoon like we always get. Can they ever create a cool character???
ReplyDeleteI love this guy. He was my favorite wrestler at the time. Vader's WWE tenure was horrible. The guy was a king and a monster in WCW. He debuts in the WWE and ends up having to become Shawn Michaels' pauper.
ReplyDeleteHO. LY. SHIT. That match. I want to go to there.
ReplyDeleteI was a fan of mistico and was stoked when wwe signed him and love seeing him get a push even right now but he's not good in the ring. He was already passed his prime by two years when they signed him and they should have brought in some lucha jobbers to make him look good or put him with jericho or other guys who can sell that offense. But still most of it id misticos fault
ReplyDeleteThe purple helmet as well.
ReplyDeleteHonestly the mvp angle was some of matts best ever work and probably got him the most over he's been without jeff
ReplyDeleteI've heard that in real life he's intense to the point of coming off like a colossal dickhead, which wouldn't surprise me in the least if true.
ReplyDeleteHe's good when you pair him with other M-Pro guys, but he has no idea how to work American style.
ReplyDeleteKharma was really disappointing. I was ecstatic to see her in the WWE and kill divas dead.
ReplyDeleteSoftball
ReplyDeleteRocco was during their second run there.
ReplyDeleteI think a combination of the substance abuse and his loose cannon attitude kept them from ever trusting him to be a top guy.
ReplyDeleteIf there's a feud with Dolph when he returns, that is. Orton was the one that put him out the run before that and did he even mention it this time, let alone feud with him as a result? If he did and I've forgotten, my bad.
ReplyDeleteTotally. Matt vs MVP for the US Title at Mania 24 would have been an excellent midcard match on that card. The feud was pretty over, if I remember correctly.
ReplyDeleteThe only disappointing thing about Flair's WWF run was the lack of a Flair-Hogan Wrestlemania match. But between his feud with Savage and Hennig, Flair's first WWF run was pretty memorable.
ReplyDeleteSounds like a certain Sin Cara.
ReplyDeleteThe main 'disappointment' in Flair's WWF run was that he never had a PPV match with Hogan. he had a good run, had a great feud with Savage, and as you said he had great chemistry with Heenan and Perfect. But the fact that they never did a big match with Hogan overshadows all of that a bit.
ReplyDeleteFlair's initial 92' run ended in a whimper but I thought overall it was awesome! From bringing the NWA title belt on WWF TV, to winning the best Royal Rumble ever and then having a brilliant feud with Savage. I'm not sure what more he could of done at the time interms of entertainment/quality. Obviously the Hogan program not happening was a huge let down... but I still loved Flair 92'.
ReplyDeleteWhilst Warriors 96' run was massively disappointing, his 98' one in WCW was an absolute abomination.
The guy pretty much burned every bridge he had in pro wrestling. Such a shame.
ReplyDeleteHe might not have. I always heard it as McMahon saying "Who the fuck hired Raven?"
ReplyDeleteI'd say his inability to speak in coherent sentences and his overall horribleness in the ring probably were some of the reasons. But that never seemed to hurt he Ultimate Warrior...
ReplyDeleteThey were about to do a Jericho-Orton feud in May or June, but then Orton got suspended for drugs and Jericho got suspended for, uhm, flags, and then it was scrapped. But they did a whole "Jericho attacks Orton from behind" deal on Raw, and I assume that Orton's punt from the last run would have been part of the story.
ReplyDeleteBarry Windham's entire career has been a big disappointment.
ReplyDeleteI can't disagree that your Jericho/Sheamus booking would've been an upgrade. The Sheamus Rumble win felt like it should've been saved for a later year when he had a more high profile match at Mania.
ReplyDeleteI get the thinking behind getting excited about the vignettes. I was too (like I always am when they do the mystery man angle), but as soon as I heard it was going to be Jericho I brought my expectations down a few notches cause... well, it's Jericho. I like the guy, but he's not worth getting *that* jacked up over at this point in his career. I found it weird that a lot of people on this blog didn't do the same.
His career circa 87-88 was fairly decent.
ReplyDeleteAnother cosign from me in reference to Flair's WWF tenure.
ReplyDeleteThe WWE nWo got completely buried by Austin and the Rock. The smark inside me loved it - those three jackasses got the same treatment they dealt out to everyone else - but as an angle/business move it fell flat. They could easily have headlined a PPV with the Outsiders vs. Austin/Rock. The face reaction Hogan got also seemed to throw them for a loop, which caused them to revert to the traditional formula have just having guys join the nWo for no apparent reason.
ReplyDeleteEven the "Lone Wolf" period in WCW was still good. He had a lot of decent matches then.
ReplyDeleteI would like to add the debut episode of ECW on Sci-Fi back in 2006 which the first match featured The Zombie.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if Raven (the character) would've worked as a tippy-top guy in WWF or WCW regardless of his drug habits or attitude. I really like the guy as a worker, but his style wouldn't really fit in the main event in anything but the Attitude Era (which was already almost over when he came into the WWF).
ReplyDeleteI could picture him as a leader of World Champions easier than I could Raven as one, at least in a big-time promotion. Maybe it's just my long-held belief that main eventers shouldn't wrestle in jean shorts...
The battle kilts were pretty awesome though.
Yeah, I always thought Taz sucked. He could do a billion suplexes, but had no idea how to actually work a real match. And as you said, he can't sell and sucks on the mic.
ReplyDeleteI completely forgot about that so I guess that proves the point about how forgettable Jericho's last run was sometimes.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad he did a program with savage instead. The flair hogan match would have probably sucked.
ReplyDeleteNot really, I don't recall Sasuke botching every other spot. He'd be fine in the X-Division, but his style just isn't suited for the WWF/E at all. After all, the WWF LHW division consisted of such great talents (*snicker*) like Brian Lawler, Gillberg, Jeff Hardy, and Scotty 2 Hotty.
ReplyDeleteIn retrospect he would have been better off doing whatever Vince wanted and staying in the WWF, if anything just because it would have kept him away from Goldberg.
ReplyDeleteYeah, but still, who the fuck thought that a character based on Mortal Kombat would get over? I'm amazed that Midway never sued.
ReplyDeleteWell rock and brock are by far the two most famous guys that wrestle. A legit movie star and a legit sports star (brock woild still be ufc champ if not for diverticulitis imo) both of whom can work. I agree rock is still the guy selling the tickets but brock is his best opponent.
ReplyDeleteYep, another guy fucked over by the Clique. Though had he not went and got his ass kicked by Paul Orndorff he would have never been put in that position to begin with.
ReplyDeleteWhoa! What?!?! Flair's 91-93 WWF run was disappointing? In what alternative universe did this take place in?!?!?!? Flair controlled the main event scene in the WWF for nearly a whole year!! Played mental games with Hogan (cost him the title at Survivor Series), setting up a situation in which he won the title without having to beat Hogan face-to-face, then played mental games with Savage (Randy! Elizabeth was mine, big boy, before she was yours!), then made Savage-Warrior look like total fools fighting over Mr. Perfect being in their corner at Summer Slam, hit Savage with a chair in the knee (setting up taking the title in few days later back in the US). Flair has said many times, it was the best run of his career. Yes, we all would've liked a Flair-Hogan main event at WM 8, but it wasn't in the cards.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I was actually interested in the Divas for a change, and would have loved to have seen her vs. Beth Phoenix.
ReplyDeleteWasn't really a feel good ending, as Savage continued to go crazy trying to get to Flair after the match. Savage/Liz should have closed WM 7 though.
ReplyDeleteI don't even remember McMahon shaking his hand, I remember Hardy stumbling through his promo, not getting his point across, and killing the story.
ReplyDeleteAnd Hardy beat Edge in a cage match, they just had Edge beat him dead at SummerSlam to add heat to the feud.
That had more to do with the rise of Austin than his injury problems. Plus big babyface pushes for Goldust and Mankind too.
ReplyDeleteI watched that episode that night, and man it was TERRIBLE. They should've pulled the plug on it immediately.
ReplyDelete"but Brock does not want to be there, and it shows onscreen."
ReplyDeleteSo when you see him bumping like Dirk Ziggler out there, you think he doesn't want to be there?
I'm kinda pissed you came up with this idea because it's never gonna happen. FUUUUUUUUUUCK
ReplyDeleteYep, that first promo was awful
ReplyDeleteThat Edge called himout on it sucking the following week just buried him further
Plus if he had stayed, maybe Owen would never have become The Blue Blazer again.
ReplyDeleteHow about Edge? He had a great career but he was always playing second fiddle to someone. Injuries didn't help but I thought they waited way too long to give him a big babyface run.
ReplyDeleteApparently, they dropped that gimmick because O'Haire kept corpsing at live events when he was cutting a promo in the ring.
ReplyDeleteOh, most definitely.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I was pretty excited for the new ECW, but as soon as the Zombie's match was over I turned that shit off and never looked back. Though all the dust flying off him was pretty funny.
ReplyDeleteI think everyone is in agreement that Flair's first WWE run was awesome. I was also pleasantly surprised when he came back in 2002 as a figurehead and ended up having a huge run as a wrestler. Flair was one of the best workers in the company even in his 50's.
ReplyDeleteI hear that. I caught a few episodes afterwards, but other than that, it was mostly an hour of filler.
ReplyDeleteJericho seems happy with his career, and why wouldn't he? As far as careers go he's had a great one, even if they never did let him be the mega-star he seemed destined to be at times. But he had a long career, great feuds, was a recognizable star, I assume was paid well, held multiple-titles...as much as I'd have liked for him to be "the" guy for an extended period of time, he has a lot of be proud of.
ReplyDeleteAs for his last run...it's been debated enough, but I'll just say it fit the storyline and character for Jericho to win the Royal Rumble. It's similar to his 2007 return where he came back for a specific reason and when he failed at that pretty much forgot about it and kept on plugging away...it fit the angle for him to win, and it would have been good for Punk and the WWE Championship to be defended against the Rumble winner, as opposed to a guy who lost the Rumble, was knocked out of the Elimination Chamber, but said mean things about Punk's family. But hey, Sheamus needed that win so he could win the title in 18 seconds in the opening match and come out of it the second most over guy in the match.
Also disappointing was the return of Y2J - glad to see him turn face again but it seemed like a bit of an afterthought. He returns to a popular character he hasn't been in four years and there's really no build up or attention given to it.
I disagree with this pick. Edge had a very solid career, much like Jericho.
ReplyDeleteThat's my point. He had a solid career when he should have had an all time great one.
ReplyDeleteOk got you. I also wouldn't say he had an all time great career either, but all things considered, it probably could've been a little bigger.
ReplyDeleteI guess I would have to understand your criteria for what makes an all time great career. Edge did just about everything I could possibly think of, and did it well.
ReplyDeletebut did anyone have high expectations for Warrior at that point? Most of the folks I know rolled their eyes based on his history.
ReplyDeleteYeah, but some of the stories, 20/20 hindsight and all, don't make him out to be too bad. I mean, he got into a fight with Sunny because Sunny was being "cute". Knowing what we know now about Sunny, I'm giving Low Ki the benefit of the doubt.
ReplyDeleteHe's still a great worker.
how could he not be a star? Um cuz he sucked. And because he had an attitude problem where he half-assed it anytime he jobbed until he joined the RTC. After that, knowing he was nothing more than a jobber, he worked hard. I think Val had an inflated opinion of himself and his importance. I'd also once Russo and his obsession with sex-related angles headed for WCW, Venis no longer had a big cheerleader. I mean in the end, he was a somewhat ugly looking guy trying to pull off the gimmick of being hot to the ladies and working run of the mill matches.
ReplyDeleteExcept for being the top guy, which I think he had the potential to be.
ReplyDeleteI was never a fan of Edge the babyface, to me his career really took off when he became heel and then paired with Lita. Crowds always seemed pretty lukewarm to him as a face, although he did get over as a face pretty well when he had that feud with Angle.
ReplyDeleteRaven was 3 years too late. 2000 wasn't even really the Attitude era, by that point that were already transitioning into something else. He was also pretty broken down from years of abuse from both drugs and in the ring. His style was also more suited for '97 where WWE employed wild brawls throughout the crowd, whereas 2000 had a much more athletic style based around guys like Rock and Triple H. Austin still did mostly punchy-kicky brawls, but the main event style was in a different place at that point.
ReplyDeleteHad Raven been smart and jumped to the WWF in 1997 instead of going to WCW then I have no doubt the guy would've had a shot at the main event at some point during 1998. Probably with the Undertaker post-Wrestlemania XV.
Dude he was THE guy on smackdown for years.
ReplyDeleteI think the fans were ready to turn him after his stuff with Lita died off. Instead of doing it, they shuffled him off to Smackdown and paired him with Vickie.
ReplyDeleteMy point exactly.
ReplyDeleteFlairs 1992 wwf run made me a fan that still watches the crap they dump out today
ReplyDeleteEdge was at his best as a despicable heel. And one of the last true heels to draw clean "classic" heel heat for Cena.
ReplyDeleteHe was not as much fun as a face. Same with Christian. Christian is the epitome of how some people can only play one way (heel or face). WWE jsut needs to keep this guy a heel and maybe he can generate some heat for Sheamus and make him interesting like he did against Orton last year.
/ rant
And the who's corner will flair and perfect be in angle was the shit.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair though, it was absolutely the worst time for WCW to get Bret. They just spent a year and a half building Sting to be the biggest babyface in the world and then Bret gets dumped in their laps.
ReplyDeleteyes but Flair Savage was one of my fav matches of all time, so I have no ill will that it wasnt flair v hogan at WM 8. (excpet Hogan Sid was HORRENDOUS!)
ReplyDeleteYeah, I agree. I never quite saw why people think Val Venis had 'megastar' written all over him. I personally never saw anything in him beyond 'solid mid card guy'.
ReplyDeleteOf course, the porn star gimmick, while entertaining at first, was a long-term dead end (which was obvious from the start).
Not sure I follow. He was the focal point of the show, maim evented wrestlemania and summerslam vs taker, was cenas first real big feud the whc tons of times but also had a few runs with the real belt. I'm not so sure he could have done anymore unless he was in cenas spot.
ReplyDeleteHe was basically in the spot punk is in now
I still wish they had kept the belt on Edge when they popped that 4.2 rating for his match with Flair. With Edge on top it felt fresh, I was pretty deflated when he jobbed it back to Cena right away.
ReplyDeleteAgree 100%, especially on Christian. I was hoping him advocating for the Brogue Kick to be banned might mean moving him back to a heel.
ReplyDeletebetter watch out buddy. ryan murphy is on your ass for the top spot. better load up on jolt cola for the evening and post away in the live tna thread lol.
ReplyDelete" I'm not so sure he could have done anymore unless he was in cenas spot."
ReplyDeleteThe argument I'm making is that he could have been in Cena's spot. And had he had the ability to be the face of the company.
They booked themselves into a corner with that MITB angle because HHH/Cena was set in stone and Edge only had a few months left for the contract. Can't really fault them for how it played out.
ReplyDeleteYou could fault them for booking themselves into a corner, or not seeing that when you pop a rating above 4.0 you might want to rethink plans set in stone.
ReplyDeleteI'm just letting murphy get a little heat segment comeback to pop the crowd.
ReplyDeleteYeah. WWE asked Mistico to go to development a bit to learn WWE's style before he debuted but he refused. The fact that he STILL hasn't caught on is pretty pathetic and a sign that maybe he just doesn't care enough.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I do have to say I'm looking forward to the Rey vs. Sin Cara match at Mania if they're both healthy and the company lets them go all-out.
I'm not saying Bret had to be their number one guy, but he needed to be more than Hogan's lackey, or shunted down fighting for the US title.
ReplyDeleteI think naming Lesnar's current run among the greatest disappointments ever is kinda harsh.
ReplyDeleteIt hasn't been perfect, but he's only had two matches, and one is a top contender for MOTY.
Gotcha. Edge would have had to roid up bigtime. Vkm probably saw him as too skinny. Either way edge was the top heel for years and was epic but he never got the hogan/hart/hbk/austin/rock/cena spot.
ReplyDeleteBut no one has been in contention for Cena's spot since Batista, so I really don't think it's a relevant argument Cult
ReplyDeleteI'm talking about before Cena got a stranglehold on that position. At anytime between 2002-2007-8ish, he could have been that guy.
ReplyDeletehahahaha nice
ReplyDeleteI believe you are referring to the live sex celebration the night after??
ReplyDeleteDidn't they pop a 4.0 or more for both that, and his TLC match with Flair?
ReplyDeleteI know Black was, I know Hero wasn't and i'm not sure Cladio/Antonio
ReplyDeleteMy disappointment is that Barret never revealed the higher purpose the Nexus had, probably cause there was none
ReplyDeleteI'll give you 02-05, but based on the booking in 06 i say Cena had a stranglehold already
ReplyDeleteWould any of you consider the booking of Shelton Benjamin during his singles run a disappointment?
ReplyDelete2 more I just thought of:
ReplyDeleteShawn Michaels 2002-2010 - This run was awesome HOWEVER I was very pissed he didn't get a year or 2 in as a heel during this time. I thought they were going full heel after Summerslam 05' and the Hogan match. I was so let down I actually stopped watching for some time. Michaels was the greatest heel of all time next to Flair.
Edge 2006 - Nothing was better than when Edge defeated the already stale Cena for his first championship. He was an intriguing heel and very fresh compared to Cena. Flair put him over as Champ HUGE in their ladder match on Raw. Then he just drops the fucking belt right back to Cena at Royal Rumble. I was officially done as a regular weekly Raw viewer until the Summer of Punk.
I don't think it would work anyway. WWE books all the heels to be chickenshit, and a PG War Games match wouldn't be violent enough to really do the gimmick justice. Just the no blood policy would kill it.
ReplyDeleteNow when I think about it, Edge having his first title reign being something like what CM Punk is having today would've been great, but as someone previously mentioned, HHH vs. Cena was set in stone for Mania 22.
ReplyDeleteConsidering that Matt said he wanted Edge to die in a car crash...
ReplyDeleteDon't get the MOTY talk for Cena/Lesnar. I liked Taker/HHH (YMMV), Punk/Bryan, Bryan/Sheamus, Rock/Cena (YMMV, I guess) and Punk/Cena better. Probably Ziggler/Orton from NOTC too. To say nothing of Styles/Daniels.
ReplyDeleteGood match though.
First episode was all-time bad, but the second episode was my favorite WWE TV show of 2006 other than the WWE-ECW Special.
ReplyDeleteI think it's middle of the road for me. One on hand he beat Triple H, scored a few IC titles, has a few everlasting OMG moments that will live in WWE lore forever, and he can say he beat Ric Flair.
ReplyDeleteThen you have Mama. I think he had more positives in WWE, but never fully got the backing.
Oof. I began losing interest in Raven when he began wearing kilts. The Cobain look was definitely his pinnacle.
ReplyDeleteSome way to build heat ... having the heel cleanly beat the shit out of the face.
ReplyDeleteI think HBK didn't want to work heel. He found jesus and would only work face
ReplyDeleteHe was very good in the ring, but man I couldn't stand to see him pick up a mic. He was clearly not good when it came to his mic skills.
ReplyDeleteMy only real disappointment with Shawn's last run was that there were still a number of guys I would have loved to see him work/feud with - Eddie, Brock, Morrison, Rey, etc. Did we even get one Shawn/Show match? I realize that that's not what most would consider a "dream match" or anything, but I have to imagine it probably would have been Show's greatest match ever.
ReplyDeleteHell, just the fact that he retired "on top", and still could have gone a few more years is disappointing - he could have been working with Punk, Bryan, and Sheamus right now.
According to konan the wwe didn't give mistico the option of going to developmental. Take that with a grain of salt though. Konan also said that when he saw sin cara at a smackdown taping cara was bitching about his spot and bitching about having to work a match on nxt, but in my opinion he is being pushed far more than he deserves so far, and that's coming from a fan of the guy
ReplyDeleteThey probably fought one on one, but there was that JeriShow/DX feud so we got plenty of Shawn/Show in tag form.
ReplyDelete