Scott,
Was there a specific moment you began thinking the nWo was getting old? In retrospect, we know they rode the gravy train too long and lost all imagination with the booking of it (with endless run-in DQs, Dusty finishes, and no satisfying babyface wins that meant anything), but when did you think "this shit is starting to get old"? Further, and without delving into fantasy-booking obscurity, is there a specific "ending" you think made most sense to pay-off the whole nWo story?
Well we didn't even get Nitro in Canada until well after the nWo was past its best before date, so my perceptions of it are largely based only on PPVs and WCW Saturday Night recaps. I think that the perfect ending would have been Hogan losing the title to Sting at Starrcade 97, at which point Nash and Hall turn on him and he goes back to the nostalgia run again while the nWo splits up an everyone does their own thing. The Wolfpac can split off, whatever. If you wanted to stretch it out a bit further, I'd have Goldberg running through each member from the bottom to the top, with Hogan firing each guy as they fail to stop Goldberg's streak. Finally, Hogan gets destroyed like it happened before to end the storyline, and then all the former members he fired gang up on him and get their revenge, then go off and everyone does their own thing.
They completely botched the Wolfpac thing. Lex Luger and Sting looked so out of place with them.
ReplyDeleteAs for Hogan firing guys if they lost, I've always thought they should've done that at Souled Out 97. I think it could have been a pretty good drawing card to see who would get fired. And it would be an easy way to get rid of dead weight like Wallstreet and Big Bubba. A pretty good shock ending would have been Hall and Nash losing to Steiners and getting fired. They form the Wolfpac and Nash vs Hogan headlines SuperBrawl 97.
There were many death-nails for WCW creatively, but for me, Sting joining nWo Wolfpac was the clincher.
ReplyDeleteI remember watching Starrcade, excited to see the angle finally ending, the faces finally getting wins, and not to mention Bret Hart was there, and just a total letdown. Scott's right in his analysis of ending it at Starrcade. I think people were tired of the same show by the end of 1997, and wanted to see it, and and them it just....kept.....going... Because all it ever was, was nWo run ins and beatdowns
ReplyDeletehated most of 1997 WCW because of the usual "nWo beatdown to end Nitro". but the angle as a whole I guess the point would be about SuperBrawl in 1998. until then I always thought "well, they are gonna blow it off in some way". in the weeks after I realized that the opposite would be true and WCW would ride that idea until there is literally no one who cares anymore.
ReplyDeleteThey were actually really close to the perfect endgame after the Fingerpoke of Doom and they reformed the original nWo. If they had followed that up with Goldberg going through them 1 by 1 to end it for good...I think we look at WCW & the Fingerpoke of Doom a LOT differently.
ReplyDeleteBut they didn't. And that's why we've been stuck with John Cena on top for a decade because there's no competition. So thanks WCW.
While I can watch pretty much any wrestling, I CANNOT bring myself to relive the NWO era... such great promise, such huge short-term results, so horrifically destroyed by a few idiots who thought it could make money forever. And their idiocy has indirectly, if not directly, led to the poor state of wrestling today.
ReplyDeleteI like this idea along with Scott's. It's always nice to see the biggest angles payoff in the biggest and most productive ways and this pretty much serves the purpose of getting Goldberg over as the ultimate WCW savior.
ReplyDeleteI've always felt the same way. The problem wasn't the FoD itself, it was that they never got their comeuppance for it. Goldberg should have squashed Hall, Nash, and Hogan in succession, all in under 10 minutes. The whole thing cemented the reputation of WCW that they weren't going to ever do a proper blow-off for anything. I hated the WWF at the time, but at least then knew enough to have the face win the blow-off and actually end whatever angle was going.
ReplyDeletePersonally for me it was actually at the NWO/Wolfpac split that I started to feel like it was getting a little old. I suppose it should have had the opposite effect, as it was an attempt to freshen up the angle, but for me it really watered down the heat for guys on both sides. As Flairfordagold said, Sting joining them was a big turning point, because it made little sense for his character after the previous year. Plus he wasn't really turning heel, since he was joining the defacto NWO face group, so it just kind of neutralized his heat and got him lost in the shuffle. On the other hand, I suppose Goldberg was able to capture Sting's role more easily with him out of the way, but I think they would have been in better shape with oath of those guys kept strong.
ReplyDeleteI don't know that it makes a lot of sense to blame a dead organization for why the WWE is in a "poor state" today. I mean, it's on whoever is left to continue to bring the goods, despite the landscape.
ReplyDeleteFrom a pure booking and storyline standpoint Starrcade 97 is the worst PPV ever, nothing else even comes close. Heels going over in most of the matches on their version of Wrestlemania. Nash no-showing, and Paul Wight doing an interview instead of just murdering Scott Hall. Advertising Raven v. Benoit knowing full well Raven wouldn't be wrestling. A screwy non-finish in Bischoff/Zybszko in what should have been a clean squash for Larry. And the Sting/Hogan debacle, probably the biggest "fuck you" to the fans in wrestling history. I'm a guy who usually cheers for heels, but I know when they need to do the job, and this was definitely one of those times. What a fucking rip-off, I didn't order another WCW PPV for a year.
ReplyDeleteLot of different spots they should have left the NWO train. I've long suggested either of Scott's scenarios. The first is perfect for post-starcade 97, the second perfect for post-fingerpoke of doom. I would suggest that Starcade 97 was the best place to move on. You could have Hogan lose and then eventually go face plus you had a red-hot Bret Hart coming in to offer something fresh from the WCW/NWO dynamic.
ReplyDeleteLuger's made sense as he got sick of WCW looking like absolute pussies against the nWo (and he had a point) plus he's always been a selfish get storyline-wise (which I always liked, as Sting had to be there to help him NOT be a selfish get, almost like Goku and Vegeta).
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, Sting in nWo made no fucking sense. None. Even if he looked a really cool Lobster.
One question I have always wondered about is how the planned NBC specials played into the extending of the NWO angle, which I think was directly responsible for the Fingerpoke deal, given it was looking at that point that the entire NBA season was going to be cancelled.
ReplyDeleteAs I recall, NBC wanted Hogan and the NWO to be a big part of the show, as they felt they were the hot properties. They were hoping for a 10.0 rating, in what I assume would have been the Sunday late afternoon NBA game spot. I think that was actually a huge loss for them, as wrestling hadn't been on network TV using first run material since 1992.
Yeah the whole Nash not showing up thing was such a killer, despite for what seemed to be at the time at least a good reason. You just can't not have the second biggest match on the biggest show of the year.
ReplyDeleteThe Raven/Benoit thing was a real bummer too, as those guys had a ****+ match a month later and Starrcade could have used a match like that, since the other matches with good workers were all kind of off at the show.
As far as Sting/Hogan, while I do think Hogan and Sting should get a lot of the blame for the match (each for different reasons) most of it should come down on Bischoff for not knowing any better. A match of that magnitude needs to be carefully planned out ahead of time -- I wouldn't have had such a problem with the finish if the match itself would have had any semblance of structure or planning. You just can't go out and 'wing' the biggest match since at least 1990, not with those guys at that point in their careers. They really needed someone like Pat Patterson to lay out the match carefully to ensure that it lived up to the hype on some level. If Hogan and Rock could put on a decent match five years later, they could have done it here too.
I remember reading somewhere several months ago that the NWO begin to get stale/become just another faction when they started adding other members (Buff Bagwell, Giant, Scott Norton, Ray Traylor, etc), and looking back on it, I agree with that. Having it consist of just Hogan, Nash, Hall (and maybe Syxx and Randy Savage) would've been best.
ReplyDeleteStarrcade 97 was too soon to end the angle, and *way* too soon for a Hogan face turn (the guy's a face for like 14 years, and finally turns heel and you wanna switch him back after 18 months?!?!). They had a ton of mileage left in the tank to do other things but keep going with the nWo.
ReplyDeleteI'm with most of the guys here in thinking that Goldberg running through the Elite Team post-FoD to end it for good was the best way to go.
And I (and lots of others) have said this a million times, but the timing of Bret's arrival really sucked for WCW. Doesn't excuse how bad they botched him (although even as a massive Bret mark I maintain his heart wasn't 100% into it from the get go), but it was a tough spot for Bischoff to be in.
I agree with the Bret thing. It was an unfortunate place to be -- sandwiched right between the hottest wrestling angle and biggest babyface in years and then the rise of Goldberg the next few months. To really cash in on the Hart situation at that point, you needed Bret to be a very strong babyface with tons of sympathy heat. I don't think it helped matters that in the states Bret had basically been a heel all year and WCW was essentially locked out of Canada for another year, due to the WWFs exclusivity contracts.
ReplyDeleteWCW certainly never got their act together with Bret, but looking back I think his effort was lacking too. Even his best WCW matches against Benoit and Flair you'd characterize as solid, but unspectacular. Then he had a bunch of average matches, many against good workers. He just never seemed to be able to get over the WWF hangover and get his energy up to a reasonable level -- except for the Goldberg steel plate angle which was all kinds of awesome.
I don't know who said it, but WWE with no competition = lower quality. You might get the occassional gem, but the overall product is lacking.
ReplyDeleteWCW dying put WWE into a situation where they could "coast" on older stars, and the "same old shit" that gets hammered on here (Super Cena, Orton as a major player, HHH since 2002-03, and so on).
I WANT TNA to succeed, and be competition for WWE... maybe then Vince (or whoever's running the show) will wake up and realize the hole they're slowly digging.
True, but it is their own fault. They don't need competition to put on a good product, the pieces are there, it's just the excuse for why they don't. The lack of competition is much mor harmful to the wrestlers than it is to the WWE as an organization.
ReplyDeleteI think way to go post Starrcade 97 was to keep Hogan off tv for a few months and run Bret and Sting vs The Outsiders as the top program and eventually do Bret vs Sting for the title sometime in the spring.
ReplyDeleteThere is a Sting/Sheamus Red LOBSTERHEAD joke somewhere in there.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. WWE was doing fine (outside of the botched Invasion angle, which I'm thinking was never intended to be any good) for quite a while after WCW went under. It's only been the last 3-4 years where they've really started sucking, thanks to the non-stop Cena push, and unwillingness to develop new stars, and just plain old shitty booking.
ReplyDeleteYup, they were still extremely successful in 2001/2002, even if overall TV ratings and buyrates had slipped from 1999/2000 levels. WrestleMania 18 in particular did extremely well, with 850k+ buys. Invasion was obviously a huge success too despite the botched angle, so they weren't hurting too bad until 2003 business-wise when the bottom fell out, but they recovered in 2004.
ReplyDeleteIt got old when I saw them split nWo into red/black and white/black and after that it didn't go anywhere. Whenever a major angle has no endgame it gets boring.
ReplyDeleteSide note: What is Aces and Eights's end game?
The match itself sucked, but I still say that Sting had to win that match, and win it clean. That show got a huge buyrate, and those people weren't paying to see Nash/Giant or Bischoff/Zybszko (Goddamn that's hard to spell...)or anything else, they were paying to see Sting kick the living shit out of Hogan. It didn't have to be the end of the nWo, or even the end of the Hogan/Sting feud, but Sting had to win. Hogan's creative control fucked this one from the get-go.
ReplyDeleteI'd have had Sting beat Hogan at Starrcade 97, maybe do a month or two of rematches, then do the nWo break up where Nash leads the group to turn on Hogan. Nash beats Sting, nWo looks refocused and dominant with Nash in charge, Goldberg kills them all. Maybe do an injury angle with Hogan to get him out of the way while this happens, then he can come back as a face to feud with Nash and whatever is left of the nWo. I do think Goldberg's emergence would have given the nWo new legs for another year or so.
ReplyDeleteAm I wrong in saying that in 2 years with WCW, Bret only had 1 truly "great" match- the Owen tribute with Benoit?
ReplyDeleteWhereas in his last 2 years in the WWF (so March 95-Nov 97 given his Summer 96 break) he had... 7? (SSeries w/ Diesel, IYH w/ Bulldog, IronMan, 2 w/ Austin, 10-man tag, w/ Taker at 1 Night Only). You could delete some from that list depending on your POV (or add some), but the difference in performance was staggering.
Wrestlemania 19 had a really bad buyrate if I'm not mistaken, and when reading back on what the shows were like at the time, it's easy to understand why.
ReplyDelete- Eric Bischoff joining
ReplyDelete- Sean Waltman getting fired ( he had mad swag)m Made the Raw after Wrestlemania 14 memorable.
- Starrcade 97'
Giant was added to the nWo really early on in the angle, and was a pretty big part of it. Those other guys didn't really add much, but they didn't detract much either. Their was still a lot of mileage in the tank for the nWo.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, Savage joining the nWo killed it more for me than the Giant. Yeah, Hogan had just beaten the Giant, but the Giant was a heel for pretty much his entire time in the WCW up until then - and I think they at least tried to have it make sense - Giant cut a promo saying that he saw Hogan's wealth and success and wanted to be part of it. And you could also argue that nobody from WCW backed him up after Hall & Nash interfered at Road Wild.
Savage on the other hand had been a babyface, and had been humiliated by Hogan and the nWo many times before.
Bischoff joining was beyond stupid.
ReplyDeleteReally? I always liked it because it was the only way the whole 'The NWO can make the rules' plot device really works and because also just Bischoff was so good at being a smarmy heel and was so bad at being a grinning babyface commentator.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I can't personally think of another great match. I enjoyed his match against Flair a lot and then the two matches against Benoit. His match against Sting at Halloween Havoc 1998 was decent, but nothing else stands out as something memorable.
ReplyDeleteThe match I was most shocked with that was bad was his match against DDP at World War III 1998 -- that seems like an instant **** match in that period of time. Actually now that I think about it, didn't they have a much better match on Nitro?
No I mean the 20 minute wankfest interviews where Bischoff would cum in his pants holding the mic for Hogan. Killed the nWo dead. DiBiase was just fine as the manager. Bischoff sucked up all the heat and swag nWo had.
ReplyDeleteReally? Hmm. I guess they didn't bother me, I always found him entertaining in that role. Having him as Hogan's biggest suck-up really fit the whole delusional, in his own world Hollywood Hogan character.
ReplyDeleteThey're very far from even thinking of end game; they're still in Act 1 of that story. Act 1 is the introduction of the faction, showing that they're dangerous and something to be respected. Act 2 is when someone (Jarrett? please god no...) is shown as the leader and they're more dangerous than ever eventually capturing the title or coming close. And Act 3 is when they eventually get theirs and they disband/blend into the TNA roster.
ReplyDeleteIf they still aren't sure who's the leader (and it seems like they aren't) then that means Act 2 isn't written meaning that Act 3 almost definitely isn't written. This would be awful storytelling but it's wrestling. We're just used to this kind of thing by now.
Lol swag.
ReplyDeleteYeah I liked the Giant add too and Savage did make zero sense, especially the way they did it. At first they seemed like they were going to do the Sting thing with Savage, having him hang around on the sidelines, but then all the sudden he decides to turn NWO?
ReplyDeleteI think they were trying to have Savage be on the outskirts of everything as a 'free agent', so I guess you could presume this is why Sting allowed him to be around since he had no allegiance to the NWO at that point and was trying to decide where he fit in -- and then he made up his mind.
WCW didn't really get that across at all though IMO, after the initial (awesome) little sit-in angle on Nitro in Chicago. Or at least I never picked up on that subtext. It just seemed out of nowhere.
Because no one really gave a shit about Bischoff, and we were all expecting a wrestler to join, not a commentator. And with the exception of Austin/McMahon (which I personally hated), every single angle where a backstage authority became an on-screen authority has been a disaster, this being the one that really started the trend.
ReplyDeleteI like the angle of Hall and Nash turning on Hogan for losing to Sting, but then how would you have Hogan firing everyone that fails against Goldberg?
ReplyDeleteThey should really have a definitive reason for doing what they're doing (unless I missed it.)
ReplyDeleteI'd have Sting beat Hogan cleanly for the belt (with Bret as the ref) at Starrcade '97 after dominating 85-90% of the match. Then beat Hogan again at Super Brawl 8. This feud definitely deserved a rematch. (I'd do Sting/Bret-Hogan/Savage as a tag team main event for Souled Out.) Once he sprays WCW on Hogan's chest there, it's the beginning of the end of the NWO angle.
ReplyDeleteI have a few different ideas about what to do from here, but I don't want to make a long ass post talking about all of them, so I'll mention one that stays as close to real life as possible, and that's keeping the NWO/Wolfpac feud. I'd have Hogan's first loss cause some friction within the NWO, and after Hogan's second loss, he doesn't even appear on TV the next night. Nash gives some speech about Hogan dropping the ball and how he's gonna run the NWO from now on. About 1-2 months later, Hogan reappears and says he's back to lead the NWO. Nash and him get along a little at first, but then something happens that drives a permeant wedge bwteen them, and Hogan has a bunch of NWO guys attack Nash and kick him out of the NWO. Nash goes off and creates the Wolfpac, and some guys from NWO join him. NWO/Wolfpac feud begins. It stretches out to Fall Brawl (if not 1-2 months beyond), where the big War Games match is the big blowoff match feud between them. Somehow, I'd have this end the NWO angle all together, but no idea how one NWO faction beating another NWO faction would accomplish that.
As for Sting's world title reign, I'd have him keep the belt at least until the Summer, if not the Fall. He should have been world champion for more than two months. I'd also have him feud with Bret Hart in there somewhere. Bret claims he's the real world champion because he never lost the belt to anyone in WWF and hasn't lost yet in WCW and so technically hasn't been beat since winning the WWF title back in August '97. In the end, I'd have him feud with Sting immediately after the Sting/Hogan feud was over, and stretch it out over two months, and after Sting beats Bret, Bret hands him the belt out of respect and says Sting deserves to be the world champion.
Bischoff joining wasn't a terrible move in itself, but he definitely outstayed his welcome.
ReplyDeleteRE: Side note
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure there is an endgame at this point. Almost all of the big names have been ruled out. Unless Dave Batista walks through that door, whatever reveal they have for the leader is going to be a major disappointment. That might be why there was noticeably less emphasis on them this week.
I'm not sure they wanted to put Sting in the Wolfpac, but the crowd reaction at the time was so over-the-top nuts that I think it forced their hand. The end result was not pretty.
ReplyDeleteAs much as I hate the Jarrett idea he's the only one who would have an actual reason, losing his power.
ReplyDeleteIt was never revealed (unless I missed it also). I assumed that it was for the title and it was going to be Bully Ray in charge the whole time but I guess they're not going there.
The first month after the FoD had higher ratings and was quite good. Goldberg fought Hall on PPV. After that it goes downhill.
ReplyDeleteAt Superbrawl he should've crushed Nash and then maybe someone like Luger at the next PPV, before finally getting Hogan at Spring Stampede. Hogan should basically have not wrestled until then. The whole point of the fingerpoke was that he wanted to be the champion but knew he couldn't beat Goldberg.
I think the problem is that the WWE does not think it has competition. They do compete with others for the audience that they get, but Vince constantly speaks as if WWE is totally unique in what it does. So although the WWE is competing with MMA, American Football and other shows that attract the WWE's traditional demographic, they believe that no one offers what they do, so they see no reason to change things up.
ReplyDeleteYeah, the crowd goes crazy for Sting joining the Wolfpack. They were *really* over in 1998, don't forget.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't stop making it weird that a man who over the previous two year had made it his mission to destroy the nWo, had now joined one of their factions.
I would have gone with Goldberg/Giant or some sort of tag or even handicap match with Hall and Nash at Uncensored, but yeah, that's exactly what they should have done.
ReplyDeleteAny former TNA wrestler could be in Aces and Eights...which is why I hoped it would be a group them that banded together.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if a Bret Hart-led nWo would have worked around that time. You have Sting beat Hogan definitively to put his leadership role in question. Bret comes in as the 'wronged' hero, but does a heel turn out of bitterness over Montreal, the fans turning on his good-guy persona, and a "can't beat em, join em" mentality. Bischoff is the one who signed him and he is being actively courted by the nWo. He's tired of being on the losing end of politics and is now going to lead his own "clique". Hart allies with Nash and Hall, they boot Hogan out with an injury angle, Hulk returns somewhere down the road for the nostalgia red/yellow run. Bret could be the dominant heel champion with programs vs. Sting, Luger, DDP, Flair, Hogan, and eventually Goldberg. When the nWo eventually disintegrates, there are Hart-Hall and Hart-Nash matches to be had.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I just see Bret as a more compelling "fallen hero" than a half-motivated babyface at that point, especially with Sting, DDP, and, eventually, Goldberg on the face side already.
The idea of Bret turning heel in WCW and joining the NWO right off the bat is intriguing, though it probably makes more sense to have him side against Hall/Nash due to their friendship with Shawn Michaels. It'd be a way to keep the Bret/Shawn feud going even into another company and keeping that heat going. I don't think Bret, Hall or Nash would've had an issue with it, since from reading Bret's book it seems like his issue was specifically with Shawn and HHH, not with Hall and Nash.
ReplyDeleteWrestlemania 19 wasn't a bad show at all.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Vince has always been like that. Even back in the late 80s and early 1990s, whenever any media outlet would ask him about WCW, AWA, or GLOW he'd always state that he was not in competition with them, because those were wrestling companies and that he was competing with Disney and the movie studios.
ReplyDeleteThat's a great idea -- they could have really played up that relationship and Bret wouldn't have had to be a heel that way.
ReplyDeleteSo you're telling me Vince stepping in as the on-screen authority was bad thing?
ReplyDeleteNo, that was the exception. But I hated the angle, and pretty much the whole Attitude Era.
ReplyDeleteNot at all, it fact, it was bordering great. I meant all the Raws and Smackdowns leading up to and after it were pretty much terrible outside of the Rock.
ReplyDeleteIf memory serves, before his debut, Bret was introduced by announcers as having 'signed with the NWO'.
ReplyDeleteIMO, you could've kept the NWO running by having Hogan kicked out after the Goldberg defeat and making Hart the leader (naturally, the NWO changing their livery to black and pink in the process), with Hart defeating Goldberg at Starrcade 98. Then you have Goldberg demolish the NWO month to month to get to Hart at Starrcade, and he gets his win back. RATINGS.
Did you just make a DBZ reference?
ReplyDelete[quote]Goldberg should have squashed Hall, Nash, and Hogan in succession, all in under 10 minutes.[/quote]
ReplyDeleteUh... what? All three in under ten minutes?
You hated Ausitn/McMahon? That's terrible.
ReplyDeleteIn separate matches on different shows, of course.
ReplyDeleteGood point. I wonder how aware the casual fan was of the Hall/Nash-HBK connection though. The "Clique" wasn't something that was really played up on-air in 1997/98 and I wonder if fans outside internet-types would have made any connection between the Outsiders and Shawn. Afterall, the last time Michaels was seen with Nash in the WWF it was fighting one-on-one on PPV.
ReplyDeleteExactly. Once Hulk drops the ball, Bret can pick it up and take over the power position. Makes kayfabe sense too, with Hart tired of backstage politics tearing him down and finally joins up with the enemy. It gives Hart a good "out" down the road too, when he wants to go face again. He can apologize to fans and say he had grown bitter and paranoid after Montreal and his treatment by higher-ups over the years. Then he can do a "redemption" type return to hero status.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I liked the idea of Dibiase as the implied "financier" behind the nWo. It made kayfabe sense for how the propaganda videos got made, referees got bribed, and how booking tipped in their favor. You could have Bischoff as the spineless higher-up (who takes bribes and responds to intimidation) without having him join and make himself a focus of the group.
ReplyDeleteFunny you say that... I was thinking Batista would be about the biggest plausible reveal for that angle
ReplyDeleteWho, me?
ReplyDeleteNaaaaaaaaaah.