This might seem like a silly question, but I've always wondered what submission moves actually hurt those involved? Obviously the ankle lock can easily be faked, but growing up I had my brother do the Sharpshooter on several occasions and it always hurt terribly. Now, obviously you can adjust for that, but was just curious which moves you know tend to be painful?
Both the figure-four and the reversal are notoriously painful if done in real life. Any of the MMA-based holds are of course painful. Although really, given that wrestling as we know it evolved from the "hookers" doing submission-based grappling back in the old days when you had to know how to make an opponent give up for real, it's not surprising that things would evolve from actual painful moves. Even simple things like a heel hook or kneebar were often used to break legs when someone was out of line.
I would of course be remiss in not bringing up the most devastating submission hold of all time: Big Bully Busick's stump puller, which was rumored to draw a quick submission 100% of the time due to Busick getting an erection while doing the move.
The cross-faced chicken wing is no joke, either.
ReplyDeleteThe Figure Four in all honesty hurts like a bitch
ReplyDeleteJericho's liontamer looked like it severely hurt; the walls of jericho: not so much
ReplyDeleteMaybe the Sharpshooter hurt so much because neither of you idiots are fucking trained?
ReplyDeleteAnd there was always that moment of discovery, like "Oh shit, it really FUCKOWOKAYSTOP."
ReplyDeleteI think in his book, Bret wrote that it did hurt, but impossible to get into without help from the other guy. And also he wrote he really cranked it on Lawler at Summerslam as payback for some stiff shots.
ReplyDeleteI suspect that when done properly, pro-wrestling style, most of them don't hurt much.
ReplyDeleteBut sure, I mean, some of them COULD hurt. I made my younger brother cry enough times as kids to know that.
If it requires pressure, it hurts.
ReplyDeleteThe stump-puller looked totally bad ass, and I would think it would really hurt without Busick's Boner drilling you in the back of the head.
ReplyDeletePeter Maivia, and for some reason I remember Doink using it?
ReplyDeleteI remember Doink using it too. I googled Stump Puller and Doink showed up first.
ReplyDeleteLooking back at old Sting matches I see that the Scorpion Deathlock always looked really weak, usually because Sting would be leaning forward, practically standing, toward his opponents legs rather than seated and wrenching backward, like the Sharpshooter. I guess this was just Sting sacrificing some authenticity to play safely with his opponents. Nice guy that Stinger was.
ReplyDeleteI always wondered if when he talked about being trained to do the move by Konan if he really meant being trained to gimmick the move to avoid injury. Because who didn't already know how to do the move by then? Ronnie Garvin was using it for crying out loud.
ReplyDeleteI actually never found the Figure-Four to be extremely painful- only the reversal. Maybe it wasn't being done properly. It didn't exactly feel GOOD, but I could imagine fighting out of it pretty handily, unless Naitch had been dropping knees to my leg after I messed up a high-risk maneuver or something.
ReplyDeleteThe Sharpshooter never really hurt the legs all that much- just the back. As Canadians, my friends & I did that to each other ALL the time. It's impossible to put on a resisting opponent, though.
Bret might've just never heard of it, or really seen it in action. The specifics might've been harder to figure out. And I mean really, who watched Ronnie Garvin matches?
ReplyDeleteA few other moves hurt like a motherfucker, too- the Norman Conquest Norman Smiley used was a pretty elite choke (like a rear choke with a hammerlock if I recall correctly). And of course the Tazmission. Really, any move with choking.
ReplyDeleteI'm totally stealing Fuckowokaystop for a song title.
ReplyDeleteIt's a question of degree of pain really because the truthful answer is they all hurt, it's just the degree to which they're locked in which is the difference between uncomfortable and agony.
ReplyDeleteI can remember being in a plain old Boston Crab which was fine, if not exactly the most pleasant position to be in. Then the other guy really yanked back on it and there was nothing I could do but squeal like a girl.
They're all pretty much capable of putting you in an awful lot of pain if that is what is intended
I don't know if anyone remembers it, but Disco Inferno developed a Standing Reverse Figure Four over several weeks in a storyline arc on WCW Saturday Night. That one always won the "legit most painful" award amongst my friends, from a list including everything mentioned so far.
ReplyDeleteMade my cousin go crying to his dad with a walls of Jericho once if that helps
ReplyDeleteAs pretty much the only one who "knew how to do the moves," my grade school classmates used to actually volunteer to be put in the holds during recess (when none of the teachers were around, of course). It was kind of weird but also funny to see their reactions when they realized that oh crap, these "fake" moves actually did hurt. The best was when I wrapped them in a figure four but hadn't brought my free leg down over their bent leg yet, so in that moment they'd go "Hmm, this doesn't even huuuuuuUAHHHHHHHH! STOP! I GIVE!"
ReplyDeleteMy brother and I used to love to try to figure out new submission moves we saw on TV and it didn't take long to discover which ones really hurt and which ones didn't. I think the only really cool sub I've seen in WWE in recent years is Bronson's modified figure-four finisher on NXT.
The chicken-wing crossface only hurts if it's done properly, or maybe just by someone as strong as Backlund. Otherwise you're just slightly bending back the arm and slightly cranking the guy's neck, which doesn't hurt that much. It's difficult to actually escape, though, when you're also caught in the bodyscissors.
The Sharpshooter is indeed almost impossible to apply from a standing position.....but much easier to apply while lying on the ground, a la Hart's variation to beat Mr. Perfect at Summerslam 1991. In many a schoolyard wrestling match I was able to sneak my leg through their legs, grab and turn them over before they knew what was really going on.
The crossface hurts by,well, cross-facing the guy. Also, make sure your fingers are clasped,and your trying to make his cranked arm touch tue back of his head!
ReplyDeleteGlad to see other people who dared to "try this at home"
People are overlooking the most legitimately devastating finisher out there that's been made to look like shit: the full nelson. Not only does the fucker hurt when applied properly, but you can cause the guy to pass out if you're feeling extra douchey.
ReplyDeleteHey! That Garvin/Valentine match from the 1990 Rumble was something else... really stiff for a WWF match from that era.
ReplyDeleteI remember when we were younger the Boston crab was death - until we realised that we didn't have to sit on the guys back.
ReplyDeleteThe sleeper hold if applied legitimately will make you black out but is the easiest move to fake.
The figure four hurts like hell, especially if you use your arms to leverage yourself up and down.
ReplyDeleteAll I remember was Garvin making faces at Valentine because his magic shin guard made the Figure-Four not hurt :).
ReplyDeleteBack in my school days, WWF was the coolest thing ever, and some friends learned a lot of the moves, and I was on the receiving end of a figure four. And yup, that can be REAL painful.
ReplyDeleteI think Dusty Rhodes bionic elbow is painful...to watch, I mean!
Red Rooster's elevated chicken wing had to hurt. Every single time.
ReplyDeleteI won at least three fights at school using a "Camel Clutch" (really just a reverse chinlock, but nobody cared that I wasn't putting their arms over my knees...)
ReplyDeleteOnce you clasp your fingers, just slip your thumbs around the front of the victim's neck and apply pressure...
ReplyDeleteWatching Garvin do the Sharpshooter vs. Valentine was painful.......to my eyes anyway
ReplyDeleteThat could fit the rhythm of that old Jetsons song "Eep Opp Ork Ah-Ah."
ReplyDeleteThe figure four hurts, as does the full-nelson, but in real life, the most painful - as much as i hate to say it - would probably be the fujiwara armbar (currently used by Alberto Del Rio)....a lot of simple moves (side headlock, armbar) are actually a lot more painful than they appear to be as well.
ReplyDeleteViscera mentioned in an RF shoot that Shamrock properly applied his ankle lock in a match with him, and kept it locked on after the bell rang for quite a while. He said it felt like his leg was on fire, or words to that effect.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I took the Walls of Jericho when I was about 14 and it fucked my back up for about six months.
garden did the move a helluva lot better than the Rock in all honesty
ReplyDeleteLmfao
ReplyDeleteJimmy Garvin?
ReplyDeletethats why he is always getting turned on.
ReplyDeletethe last dance.
ReplyDeleteyuji nagata used the same finish.
Ha, at first I thought you meant to reply to one of the Busick posts, given the Stump-Puller rumor.
ReplyDeleteTexas Cloverleaf hurts like hell
ReplyDeleteJust about all submission moves would hurt if you're actually putting them on with force. As would almost all other wrestling moves. The idea is that certain submissions could be painful even just kayfabe, although from wrestling with friends as a kid I never really had a problem with too much. I can say with impunity, however, that the Rings of Saturn did not hurt for shit.
ReplyDeleteADR is a cross armbar/juji-gatame, the Fujiwara involves the guy being on his stomach and you lying on top of him and pulling their arm up.
ReplyDeleteOkay, well the cross arm-bar then
ReplyDeleteGuess that's why Flair would do the ol' grab-the-ropes-for-leverage bit every chance he got.
ReplyDeleteYeah both that cross armbreaker (Code Red) and the fujiwara (Payne Killer) hurt like hell...
ReplyDeleteif you're quick enough, you can slap the Texas Cloverleaf on without assistance.
ReplyDeletenope. rugged ronnie garvin.
ReplyDeletedoesn't everyone?
ReplyDeleteHere's the thing, though: for a lot of these moves, while they might legitimately hurt, isn't also the case that most cannot be applied unless the recipient is cooperating?
ReplyDelete"Why yes, I'll allow you to grab my leg, cross the other one over, and then turn me over onto my stomach so that I can receive the Sharpshooter."
We know one move that probably doesn't hurt: the Rock's shitty scorpion king deathlock sharpshooter of doom.
ReplyDelete