Hey Scott,
I was recently reading your Retro Rant of Royal Rumble 92. In it, you make reference to Bret Hart's IC title loss to The Mountie coming because Hart was set to walk out on his WWF contract and debut in WCW. I've never heard that before. Can you explain this situation in more detail?
Thanks.
Not much more to it. Bret's contract was coming up and there was rumored to be fear he was going to pull a Honky Tonk Man and try to leave with the IC title as a receipt for Flair taking the NWA title to WWF, so they switched it to Mountie and renegotiated with him. Apparently WCW had made some pretty serious offers and even scheduled his debut for the Clash in January, although legally it would have been dicey at best if he had jumped with the belt because his contract wasn't exactly "expired" in the standard sense of the word. I'd have to check Bret's book for the millionth time for all the details, but that's the gist.
I'm sorry but this is one of those rumors that Scott and others seem to repeat ad naseum as fact when there isn't much evidence. Bret doesn't even mention it in his book and considering the level of detail Hart went into, it is odd something as major as that wouldn't come up. In fact, he states that Piper told him in late December that Vince was putting the belt on Mountie to transition it to Roddy, who would then put Bret over at Mania (p. 281). There is no mention of WCW or any contract expiring. Further, Bret does go into great detail of a proposed jump to WCW that almost happened, but it was in 1989 (pp.239-240).
ReplyDeletefacts have never been Scott's strong suit.
ReplyDeleteI take it Scott isn't watching TLC...
ReplyDeleteI was going to say the same thing. Bret says the "sickness" was a work but he knew he would get Piper at WM8 which somewhat cushioned missing the paycheck from RR 92
ReplyDeleteBret doesn't talk about that in his book, I think it may have been made up by Meltzer.
ReplyDeleteBret dos talk about almost walking out in 1989, when Flair was in charge.
Its very possible that Bret downplayed the 92 incident in his book.since it would make him look bad regarding Montreal. I remember reading about his wcw talks around that time in a bunch of places, not just in the observer. I'm sure there is atleast a bit of truth to it.
ReplyDeleteHere's the pertinent details from the January 27 92 WON, which is where the story comes from:
ReplyDeleteOne of the stranger stories of the past week involves the Intercontinental title. Officially, as the storyline goes, Bret Hart went to the ring with a 104 degree fever on Friday night (1/17) in Springfield, MA and lost the title to The Mountie. Mountie in turn dropped the title at the Rumble two days later to Roddy Piper. As has become pretty common knowledge as the week went on, Hart had negotiated and at one point agreed to a deal where he would debut on Tuesday (1/21) at the Clash of the Champions for WCW in Topeka where he'd come out with the Intercontinental title as something of a payback for the WWF bringing in Ric Flair and having him wear what WCW considered their world title belt (of course the situations are completely different in that Flair was fired by WCW after the company attempted to cut an existing contract almost in half, which somehow six months later WCW feels is the WWF's fault for, to the extent they went to court over getting the belt off WWF television shows. So this idea was to gain revenge on the WWF, but the difference is that Hart would be walking out on a valid contract). The fact Hart was losing the title in Springfield was the world's worst-kept secret being that the WWF syndicated shows went out on the satellite Wednesday, which means anyone with a dish (which probably means well over one million potential viewers) would have been able to watch on Wednesday them talk about, in the past tense, in detail, an angle that was going to occur two days later.
It should be noted that the decision made to change the Intercontinental title from Hart to Piper was made weeks ago, before any talks had even started with WCW. So despite rumors to the contrary that are sure to spread, it wasn't a last-minute decision made by Titan to get the belt off Hart for fear he was leaving. If anything, Hart knowing he was going to lose the title may have been an impetus in his exploring the option of a jump. Apparently WCW offered Hart a guaranteed deal that was substantially more than he had been earning as Intercontinental champ. However after apparently agreeing to the deal, Hart had to back off because he realized his contract with the WWF, which he thought had run out, had rolled over and he couldn't give notice for several more months. However, WCW sources indicate that Hart, who had backed out of the deal as of a few days ago, will be coming in after all in not too many months. Hart was promised that after losing the strap to Mountie at a house show that he would be getting it back at Wrestlemania, even if it meant in a babyface match against Piper. However those are the kind of promises in wrestling that aren't often kept. In this case, since word got out on several wrestling 900 numbers over the weekend (which said that Hart would be starting at the Clash on Tuesday, and I'm sure many people, with Hart not appearing at the Rumble--which was to sell the illness and allow Piper to get the match and the strap; believed that confirmed the reports he was jumping) the plan WCW was attempting, Hart probably isn't in exactly the most favorable political position in the WWF right now as a possible lame duck. As far as similar rumors involving Curt Hennig, first off, he's still months away from returning to the ring to begin with. Second, he just signed a new contract as an announcer with the WWF from what I'm told, although he is long-time friends with Rick Rude (they both grew up together in Robbinsdale, MN) and nearly everyone in wrestling is envious of Rude's contract with WCW (rumored to be $300,000 for working 142 dates).
Thanks for all the info Scott. I totally remember that.
ReplyDeleteDidn't Shawn Michaels also almost make a similar move in 1993? But Vince coaxed him back and that started the Razor Ramon real IC champion program?
ReplyDeleteBret downplayed it big time in his book fwiw
ReplyDeleteShawn threatened that alot. Rumors had him leaving after wrestlemania X too. The rumors in fall 93 were Shawn had failed a drug test and suspended, thus the battle royal ic title raw.he returned to try and salvage survivor series after lawler was accused of statutory rape.
ReplyDeleteCute.
ReplyDeleteWatching the replay later tonight.
ReplyDeleteI love that Bret just couldn't just put Mountie over. Had to have a 104 degree fever.
ReplyDeleteIf Bret had gone to WCW in 1992, I wonder just how different wrestling would be today...
ReplyDeleteThe. Shield.
ReplyDeleteThat's really interesting
ReplyDeleteFuck yes.
ReplyDeleteMeltzer talked some more about this in 1995 when Luger jumped to WCW in regards to the whole thing about Bret thinking he'd be able to jump, but not being able to. Apparently at the time with WWF contracts, once you entered the renegotiation period you had 120 days (I think) to complete them. If you failed to do so, your contract was automatically renewed.
ReplyDeleteI had a PWI that talked about Bret's upcoming jump to WCW. It was real.
ReplyDeleteBret Hart was a loyal WWF soldier, just pretend he didn't almost go to WCW three times.
ReplyDeleteAnyone old like me remember running to the local store magazine rack to pick up the latest wrestling magazines? I'm talking late 80s and early 90s. It was a joy that I will never forget. Lol. I still have hundreds of those damn things.
ReplyDeleteJust like when Zack Ryder couldn't put over Jack Swagger, he had to be injured first.
ReplyDeleteyeah damn him for negotiating and taking less money.
ReplyDeleteBret has got to be the most polarizing figure in wrestling these days (or at least this board) and I can always count on a few folks to come through every time he's mentioned with some negative remarks.
...no Hart vs Piper at WMVIII
ReplyDelete...no Hart vs Bulldog Summer Slam ME
...no Bret vs Yoko feud
...no Bret vs Owen feud
...no Bret vs HBK feud
...no Bret vs Steve Austin however it could have been a feud in the WCW about the US Title or so
...no Attitude because he was the main focus from end of 96
to end of 97
...no Montreal screw job
...no Stone Cold Steve Austin, maybe he would have stayed in WCW too
...maybe no nWo or Bret could have been the third man
it would be VERY different.
How dare anyone question Saint Bret?
ReplyDeletehe's hardly a saint. I thought in his book he came across as homophobic and sadly proud of his infidelity however the criticism by a few folks around here is so irrational that I generally find myself defending the guy.
ReplyDeleteThat's because his praise from some people is irrational.
ReplyDeleteWhat praise is considered irrational?
ReplyDeletePlease stop trolling me.
ReplyDeleteYou are confused what trolling is. Not surprising.
ReplyDeleteHey, stop that. You can't pick on Shawn without first mentioning that Bret is an asshole who gets undeserved praise.
ReplyDeleteYes. I know. It's having a dissenting opinion. We've been through this.
ReplyDeleteHe would have been drummed outta WCW with all the other great mid-carders once Hulk Hogan debuted in 1994.
ReplyDeleteWait, asking you to back up a claim with evidence is now trolling?
ReplyDeleteLOL @ wrestling 900 numbers...
ReplyDeletePlease re-read the exchange you had and tell me how someone asking you to explain how praise for a subjective taste can be irrational is "irrational" is trolling.
ReplyDeleteBut Bret used his loyalty as a reason why he should be special and drop the title when, where and to who he wanted, if not just give the title up, and thats why Montreal was such a crime...but he looked into going to WCW three times before he did. He tends to ignore that.
ReplyDeleteIt's an honest question. Did some compare Bret to FDR? Jesus? Indiana Jones?
ReplyDeleteSolo trolls all of my posts. I'm not going to encourage him.
ReplyDeleteLet's be real here, he didn't want to drop to Shawn Michaels because he was a drug addict and an insane piece of shit at the time. From the looks of everything, Wrestlemania looked like they were building to a Bret/Austin rematch where Austin would have gotten the defining win over Bret.
ReplyDeleteLOL IRONY.
ReplyDeletelot of misinformation there. First off he had a creative control clause. Regardless of loyalty, he had the right to go out in a reasonable fashion. he offered to drop the belt to anyone but Shawn in a variety of ways and even offered to drop to Shawn on Raw if Bret got a victory first at Survivor Series. I understand why Bret felt that way. Shawn was disrespectful to every wrestler in the locker room and did his best to make Bret's life miserable from the moment he came back in late 96. 2nd, his loyalty was about signing a 20 year contract for way less money to stay with WWF for life rather than going to WCW. It had nothing to do with never using WCW as a negotiating tool. Bret never wanted to go to WCW, he simply was a smart businessman who used them to up his price. No shame in that. Third the "give up the title" was a last ditch AGREEMENT between Vince and Bret because Vince wouldn't agree to let Bret drop the belt to anyone but Shawn at Survivor. Now I understand why Vince wanted that. He needed his "degenerate" to go over his exiting superhero to really push the new WWF attitude. But the fact is Bret offered to drop the belt to anyone, anytime before getting to the point where the only option was Survivor Series or Raw the next night (due to Vince being paranoid about Eric Bischoff announcing he had the WWF champ signed or even having Bret give him the belt to trash, which Eric says would never have happened due to still being in litigation over the Madusa incident while Bret also says he never would have taken the belt to WCW).
ReplyDeletehonest question. were 1-900 lines giving out backstage info like that in late 91/early 92? I thought at that point they were still pretty much kayfabe? And also how many people called those things. The reason I ask is that if it was just the newsletters that were talking about Piper/hart and all the details then it's a big "who give a flying fuck." But if WCW had a 1-900 line that was giving out backstage dirt like contract negotiations and the volume was fairly decent, I can see it being an issue. I know that the feds always claimed they didn't care about dirtsheets but then treated them with way more power than they had, with Bischoff even booking weird swerves off the disney tapings to throw off the .000001% of the audience that knew about the taped results ahead of time.
ReplyDeleteBret didn't want to lose to Shawn because he was a mark for himself and couldn't handle Shawn Michaels beating him in the end. Shawn was a dick, he had a drug problem, but he delivered and Undertaker, lockerroom leader he is, worked with and put Shawn over a month earlier. There's no reason Bret shouldn't have. If Shawn implodes, that's Vince's problem. he's the boss and he wanted Steve Austin as his top good guy and Shawn Michaels as his top bad guy. Losing to Shawn was bad for Bret and Bret alone, that's why he wouldn't do it.
ReplyDeleteso what was Shawn's excuse for refusing jobs? Not a mark for himself? I love how Bret is a mark for himself when he refuses a job for the first time in his career but guys like Shawn can refuse jobs over and over, lose their smile, but "they deliver." Sorry, but a wrestler's income is only as strong as their brand. That is why guys like Brody, Hogan, Warrior, Flair, and many others stood up and refused to lose at certain times. In their case it was to protect their drawing ability or because they felt their opponent was beneath them. Bret at least had a 2nd valid reason which you refuse to acknowledge. It's one thing to to be a screwup but Shawn went out of his way to make Bret's life a living Hell for the past year. If I was Bret I wouldn't have got in the ring with the slimeball, much less put him over after all he did.
ReplyDeleteAnd what about all the people Shawn refused to put over?
ReplyDeleteThe only person to actually get a pin fall victory over Shawn in ALL of 1997 was Triple H.
Used to look forward the new issues of PWI, The Wrestler, Inside Wrestling, Wrestling Superstars and the other Apter mags, plus WWF Magazine, and the other lower quality mags. The lower quality ones always had ads for the apartment wrestling or mud matches, etc. Hell, there was even a GLOW magazine back in the day. I still have a few issues of that, and every PWI from 1983-2001! There used to be a huge section of the magazine rack at the supermarket that had all the different wrestling mags back then, had to over 50 different magazines each month.
ReplyDeleteWhy would it be "made up"? Stories like that don't come out of thin air.
ReplyDeleteBut Bret wasn't an angel, and based on how pissy he seemed whenever he wasn't champion I'm sure he wasn't as easy to get along with as he thinks. Read his book again, he's pissed off anytime he wasn't champion or the focus of the show. He shot his mouth off about Shawn plenty. But Shawn's attitude doesn't matter. Bret is leaving, he should drop the Vince's title when Vince says so. Everyone else did, what makes Bret Hart special? That's the difference. Bret us leaving. It's over, he's history, what he thinks is good for his character isn't the WWF's concern.
ReplyDeleteyeah he really should have been concerned with how his last match would affect a company that reneged on his deal and lied to him repeatedly. Loyalty is a two way street. I completely understand why Vince felt he needed to get rid of Bret (and no, it wasn't the money, that's BS). Bret was an impediment backstage and on screen to the new WWF. I get that. But again why should Bret, with a creative control clause, feel a shred of loyalty to WWF, who turned their back on him? And no, not everyone else dropped the belt when they were told. Name another wrestler in WWF who was leaving when he dropped the belt? Flair? he stuck around for 3 more months. Jarrett? he held Vince up for a big payment to job to Chyna. The situation was really unprecedented. Bruno wasn't leaving when he lost the belt. Nor were Stasiak, Morales, Graham, Backlund, Sheik, Savage, Hogan, Warrior, Slaughter, etc. None of them. You also can't compare the ability to leave WWF (or WWWF) back in the territory days were audiences didn't cross over to your new territory with two giant companies competing on national TV with a booming internet to tell every backtage rumor or bit of gossip.
ReplyDeleteSo yeah, what is good for his character shouldn't be the WWF's concern, which is why Bret got the creative control clause (same reason hogan had is in WCW). But what is good for his character SHOULD be Bret's concern.
By the way, I assume you think Flair was a horrible person and mark for himself when he refused to job to who Jim Herd told him to in WCW before bringing the belt to WWF? Just looking for consistency.
Once again, Bret & Shawn get the tongues a waggin' around these parts. They're like a 2 for the price of 1 Cena.
ReplyDeleteHe had creative control of how his character left the company written into his contract. That's the difference. Otherwise, if that wasn't there, I'm more than positive there wouldn't have been a problem, because Bret would have had no leg to stand on.
ReplyDeleteBret had an opportunity and he took, so what's Shawn's excuse for when his back is shot to hell and he's still refusing to put Austin over until Taker threatens him into doing so.
But Shawn was a dick, but that's not the point. He might have threaten not to job to Austin, he may have been threatened by Undertaker, but he still did it. They didn't have to screw him to get him to lose to Austin. Shawn was a dick, no doubt, but that's the point - Bret let it become personal. He didn't like Shawn, and seemed to have a bug up his ass about Shawn taking his spot, it turned personal, neither handled it well, Bret lost sight of it beng a work and couldn't let Shawn defeat him in the end. Shawn was the top guy, no shame in losing to him, character wise, it just became too personal. Bret's been around wrestling long enough to know you do the favor on the way out. If he just loses like a pro nobody holds it against him.
ReplyDeleteI think Flair was likely more difficult to deal with than he let on, so yeah, not big on him either....but Flair put over Bret for the title, then Hennig when he left. Savage put over Flair and sort of Yokozuna when he stepped back. Jake put over Undertaker. Hogan put over Yokozuna, Diesel put over Shawn, Razor put over Vader. Those last three became huge draws with the nWo, so the idea that losing to Shawn would hurt his character doesn't add up. They weren't asking him to lose a bra and pantys match to the Fink, he was losing to the top guy in the company. He had creative control, okay, but doesn't Hogan get shit on when he used creative control to do what was in his best interest?...Foley put over Triple H, Austin put over the Rock, the Rock put over Goldberg. The only way to explain Bret's reasoning is that he was a mark for himself, or he let it become so personal with Shawn he couldn't bare to have Shawn be the better man in the end in WWF history. Either way, he's a pro who grew up in the business, he should know better and recognize that the wrestling business isn't his personal playground.
ReplyDeleteway to ignore the "loyalty is a 2 way street" argument. Let's look at your examples. First off everyone you mentioned, save Savage was at the end of the contract they signed and NOT having their contract breached like Bret did. Big difference. You keep skipping over the fact that WWF treated Bret horribly while you want him to "do what is right for the business." Well the business was WWF and they didn't deserve "what is right" and the fact that Bret got creative control showed how much he knew growing up in the business about how guys are treated on their way out and how promoters double cross them. IMO it wasn't about anyone thinking Shawn was the better man, it was about standing up to a guy who was everything opposite of what you expected Bret to be. I'm sorry, but if I get fucked over by my boss and the company I work for and basically get forced out to another company I don't really want to go to, I'm not going to turn around and put over the guy who stabbed me in the back for 3 years on the way out. I don't owe the backstabber nor the boss/company jackshit.
ReplyDeleteI will reiterate: Loyalty is a two way street. Vince showed none, Shawn showed none, yet Bret is expected to "do the right thing" just because he's a great guy? Fuck that. He offered to put over anyone else in the company. Vince had ample opportunity to take the belt off Bret long before the Survivor Series. He chose not to because he wanted the match to symbolize the changing of the guard (which in an ironic twist it did not). Bret owed him nothing and in fact should have sued his ass for breach of contract and walked out but his LOYALTY to the other guys in the company not named Shawn or HHH was strong enough that he didn't want to screw them over by pulling a Flair and leaving with the belt.
I think loyalty is over stated here. It's wrestling, it's an every man for himself business, if Bret could have gotten a better deal in WCW, why not take it? Vince could, and did, dump him when he was done with him, I don't blame Bret for looking into doing it first. He just uses this loyalty of his as another reason why he didn't deserve Montreal, when you can argue he was only loyal to Vince because Vince was loyal to him by giving him a better offer each time...even helping him get a great offer from WCW when he was letting him go. Just read his book, his interviews, his whining about being screwed (out of character), I think he just became a pain in the ass to deal with and the Bret Hart Show wasn't going to lead them to the heights the Attitude Era would. Bret Hart wrestling meaniess who want his belt wasn't going to cut it anymore but Bret seemed stubborn and set in his ways. It was the Monday Night Wars where companies are signing Jeff Jarrett just to fuck the other and Vince is willingly asking Bret to leave. Tells you they really wanted to be rid of him. And Vince helped him land a great deal in WCW in return, out of whatever loyalty he had left for Bret. Just drop the title and leave, it's only a controversy because Bret turned it into one.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm not saying Shawn wasn't a dick, but Bret started the whole thing. He was the one taking shots at Shawn in his newspaper column, whining about how he should be champion because he represented the company better, he was a real man, etc...from what we know about Bret (in a fair world he's champion because he's the best) it seems likely he got pissy he was replaced as the top face (twice in a year), shot off about it, and ended up setting off a war with an immature drug addicted asshole.
ReplyDeleteOkay, that comment's completely worth an up-vote...
ReplyDelete