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Maybe a different angle?

Hey Scott,

I hate myself for this, but what happens if the 1997 Hart Foundation continues? The pro-Canadian/anti-American angle was  some of the best TV the WWE has ever done, and I just wonder what would have happened to that group if the events that transpired never occured... In short, without the Montreal screwjob and the other obvious issues, how would the pro-Canada/anti-USA Hart Foundation angle ended?

PS: Honestly, I've heard stories about a hair-pulling incident, but that aside, as a pretty decorated amateur wrestler, couldn't Bret Hart destroy Shawn Michaels in an actual fight?


PPS: Ricky Steamboat vs Tito Santana: Who is the better worker and is it close?

1.  Steve Austin beating Bret Hart to win the World title at Wrestlemania was always the destination.  Basically the Harts would have replaced D-X's role in the show, I imagine, and then the group would have splintered for good.  Makes sense.

2.  Wrestling and street fighting are two totally different things.  The early UFCs showed that even an elite wrestler like Dan Severn could only do so much in that environment.  Bret was never known as a tough guy, which is one reason why they were able to execute the screwjob on him.  

3.  Steamboat, and no, it's not even close.  

Comments

  1. Hadn't HBK already eclipsed Hart as the #1 heel even before the contract situation?

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  2. In hindsight I wonder whether it was for the best that D-X replaced the Hart Foundation as the number one heel stable? I say that mainly in regards to the fact that D-X were over as heels in both America and Canada, whilst the Hart Foundations were only heels in America (I believe they were still over as faces in other countries than Canada as Bret had a big international fanbase) which could have led to Stone Cold not being as over as he got, as he would have been still massively over in America but maybe not as much elsewhere. If you think about the WCW Bret-Goldberg angle in 1999 with the steel plate under Bret's hockey jersey, I genuinely believe that led to Goldberg getting heel reactions in Canada every time WCW had a show up there due to their love of Bret (and also I feel the angle exposed the Goldberg character as being very one-dimensional during a time where his heat was starting to slowly die down). Perhaps it may have been the same or at least similar for Austin!

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  3. I think Canadian Stampede was the perfect ending for the angle. The Harts basking in the glory and a beaten Austin still taking the fight to them by himself at the end, both parties came away looking amazing. A truly incredible feud from the moment Austin began calling out Bret right up until to that 10 man tag climax.

    But Bret vs Austin at WM would've been once to the well to often I think. Besides Shawn was clearly the lead dog in the heel stakes regardless at that point, DX was the "it" thing.

    I do wonder if the Nation (and subsequently the Rock) would suffer if Bret and the Harts are still around after Shawn's back is hurt. Maybe instead it's the Hart Foundation vs the reformed DX instead throughout the summer, hell a Bret vs HHH program probably brings Hunter into the main event a year early.

    Or maybe Bret gets the challenger role that Dude Love got programmed into. Bret could've even ended up as Vince's corporate champ!! Shit we wouldn't even get Evil Vince without Bret leaving...

    So I think everything worked out fine actually. Mick, Rocky and even Vince himself probably struggle to break through as out and out main event draws with Bret still in the picture.

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  4. Read the rewriting the book on Brett staying. Pretty good stuff

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  5. I'm sorry, but the screwjob had nothing to do with Bret's real fighting abilities, merely his ability to trust. If shooting had been a factor, Shawn would NOT have been the guy in there.
    As for Bret's fighting ability, while he certainly wasn't on the level of a Scott Steiner or Haku, much less a Ken Shamrock, I haven't heard of too many guys testing him either. I think he could have handled himself just fine. Particularly against Shawn, which HBK has even admitted himself.

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  6. "Bret was never known as a tough guy, which is one reason why they were able to execute the screwjob on him"

    I don't understand this. The bell rang right after Bret was put in the hold--and he knew the spot was coming. Even Kurt Angle wouldn't have tried to fight out of it right away.

    Unless you mean that a tougher guy would have killed Shawn in the ring the moment after it happened. But that still seems unlikely.

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  7. i would say so. HBk was working with UT and doing the DX thing while Bret was working with the Patriot and no one cared. One could argue though that Bret being shunted out of the main event (while champ) was because of the contract situation. Based on my view that Bret being forced out was not about money but about him being seen as an impediment to the attitude era both on-screen and backstage, I just can't see him staying champ until WM. I think more likely Shawn still goes over Bret at Survivor Series, then Austin beats Shawn at WM. I think Austin gets his win over Bret down the road in one last gasp; at the top of the card before heading to mid-card land and a role like Kane has (not main event but always able to be elevated for a ppv or two) had for the past 8 or 9 years until Bret decided to retire.

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  8. If everyone would have cooperated I think Bret would have feuded with Austin while the Foundation feuded with DX. DX was gonna turn face due to the cool factor regardless.


    Screwjob doesn't happen, Austin Vs Bret at Mania with Austin winning. Foundation attacks him next night on RAW and DX comes in for the save and face turn.

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  9. I think Bret had respect based on his family's history in wrestling and Stu's reputation of always treating his wrestlers well (i.e. never screwing them out of their pay). Plus, he was generally well-liked, too.

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  10. I think Bret was also looking forward to finishing out his in-ring career and working backstage in some capacity. The guy had been on the road for like 20 years at that point with few breaks (he was a survivor of the killer 80s schedule and worked more dates than anyone else a couple of those years and carried the company for most of the 90s), put Steve and Shawn over definitively (perhaps not the latter as much) and finish off his career with maybe some shots here and there.

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  11. Exactly. I mean, the guy was genuinely shocked. Who would have expected Vince to do that on a live PPV during the main event with thousands of Bret's fans watching?

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  12. So DX was going to turn face immediately? Makes no sense. They were on the rise. Hart Foundation was on the decline.

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  13. Let's say Bret didn't leave and did hold on to the belt until dropping it at WrestleMania, do they still run the Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker Casket Match at the Royal Rumble and if not, now you have to factor in that Shawn probably doesn't destroy his back (at least in that match) and winds up being around for a longer time.


    I wonder how that would have affected Mick Foley being Austin's first challenger, SummerSlam '98 and Rock's rise. And if Bret's staying, you obviously have to wonder how much longer he would have wrestled and be at the top of the card. Does he turn face after dropping the belt to Austin and say the Hart Foundation turns on him leading to Bret vs. Owen again or something like that in the midcard.


    A lot of fun stuff to ponder.

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  14. I would like to think that it would have led to Owen finally getting the full main event status, but if Austin didn't want to work with him that was never going to happen with or without Montreal or Bret staying. Anyone think they would have gone with Hart vs Austin vs Michaels in Wrestlemania's first ever triple threat main event? Or would it have been HHH vs HBK?

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  15. Yeah, if Shawn doesn't get injured it gets really interesting as there could have been plenty of good programs with Austin, HHH, Rock, and Owen to follow.

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  16. Yes, definitely. It helps when your co-workers think well of you.

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  17. You bring up some great points. It's interesting that without Bret leaving, we'd get the Attitude Era with Bret and Shawn involved. Strange to imagine how Bret would have fit in, but I think it could have worked.

    The other, more obvious thing to ponder, is what would have happened in 1998 if the Mr. McMahon character had never been created post-Screw Job. I think this has been brought up before, but interesting to think about.

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  18. I would agree. Don't know why you got a down vote. I remember how weird it was to see Bret as champ fighting The Patriot in the undercard while a non-title HBK/UT match went on last at Ground Zero. Back then, the title not being the main event wasn't nearly as commonplace as it is now.

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  19. I think the street fight where Austin took out Bret would've been a fitting end to the angle. Austin never got a definitive "official" win but destroying Bret and basically putting him in a wheel chair played into his badass persona.

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  20. Tito was pretty awesome but Steamboat was waaaaay better. There just aren't any real definitive Tito matches (he has a ton of good ones) while you can point to a ton of excellent Steamboat matches. Hell, the guy was involved in what many consider the greatest series of matches ever.

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  21. HBK also main evented over Bret at Bad Blood with the famous Cell match. I agree that HBK was clearly positioned in a better spot than Bret, though both were getting a lot of heat.

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  22. I am with you that Steamboat is better in every way, but Tito had some damn good matches with Valentine and Savage during his IC title run. I'd say those are his definitive matches. Tito was solid in the ring, Steamboat was legendary.

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  23. Still think Montreal was a worked shoot if I was Bret I would of filed the biggest lawsuit against Vince breach if contract public humiliation mental anguish etc things don't add up sometimes

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  24. Would have, not would of.

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  25. You don't know why I got a down vote? You must be new here.

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  26. If Bret stays, does Vince still bring in Mike Tyson for WrestleMania XIV? I can't see "Iron Mike" joining the Hart Foundation. If Bret stays, he's losing the WWF Title to Shawn Michaels at Royal Rumble '98. The following night on Raw, we get Tyson/Austin and the build to the WWF Title match at WrestleMania goes down as it did. Bret ends up fighting Triple H or teams with Owen at WrestleMania.

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  27. I don't it anyone could have killed Shawn right in the ring, he got out of there so fast it was amazing. Just that fact alone always made me think he was in on it. Of course he admits it now, but he was denying it for a couple years.

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  28. I really miss that heel-is-a-face-in-Canada dynamic the Harts had. Can't really think of anything like it since outside of maybe Punk at MiTB '11. Heels always seem to go to cartoonish extents to berate hometown crowds to get boos. It would be cool if just once a heel soaked up the cheers of a hometown crowd and threw it right in the face's, er, face.

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  29. Oh I agree. I love the Tito/Valentine cage match. Like you said, Tito was solid, Steamboat was legendary.

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  30. I would say Severn did pretty well for himself in the UFC, all things considered. Even though today fighters are (or at least should be) more well- rounded, the dominance of grinders like GSP shows good wrestling can dominate other fighting styles.

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  31. DX turning face... is pretty much what happened.


    But that whole scenario is bad.

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  32. I give the edge to tito on the stick


    ARRIBA!

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  33. And I would have said, go fuck yourself, Dougie.

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  34. although it had happened before. sadly enough, most notably in 1994 with Bret Hart (who Vince, despite giving him the belt at WrestleMania seemingly never trusted in 100%).

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  35. That would be more grammatically correct.

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  36. I think Steamboat gets the nod with the promo he did when he was rehabbing after Savage injured him.


    "Say the letter E"


    "Heeeeeee....Heeeeeeeee. HEEEEEEEE!!!!"

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  37. Shawn was willing to be the bad guy every week regardless of where thet were, so yes.

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  38. Haha, yeah I know. You have some controversial views but I was kinda surprised at that one b/c I thought your post was pretty reasonable and spot on.

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  39. SSee, Bret seemed to think anytime Vince went with someone else it was a prick move just to mess with him, but it's pretty clear Bret was never his idea of his top guy. Vince tried Hogan, Luger, Diesell, Shawn and Austin over him. Bret seemed to be his saftey net.

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  40. It's close. Tito's knee surgery post-op interview and Steamboat trying to mime his words after Savage crushed his throat are neck and neck.

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  41. I could say that great khali was tall and get down votes.

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  42. Bret Hart was racist to the core, Tyson wouldn't fit.

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  43. If Shawn's back is still done, I see him putting HHH over and leaving.

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  44. Wait what?! do you have any proof of this

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  45. Since when? And even if he was, it's fucking Mike Tyson, there's not a whole lot Bret could do about it.

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  46. They turned face pretty quickly after Wrestlemania XIV. Once Hunter had another match with Owen at Unforgiven they became full-fledged faces.

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  47. Tito had the better manager, Arriba McEntire.

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  48. "He's acknowledging his sister!"


    "What?"


    "That's Arriba McEntire right?"


    Bobby was on fire from the word go on that show.

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  49. I will sit through the worst PPV or show in the world if Bobby Heenan is the one doing color. And enjoy myself.

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  50. Agreed. Interesting scenario too. If Shawn wasn't hurt in the Casket match, maybe HHH gets 'made' even sooner in a feud with Shawn and, maybe, Austin in '98.

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  51. Bret wasn't really a world-class shooter or anything, he won the city championship in Calgary back in high school and was a semi-impressive prospect in college, supposedly, but not someone who set the world on fire. And that was in the mid-70s, so it was at least 20 years prior to Montreal et al. Not to say that that doesn't give him an edge up on someone like Shawn who doesn't have that experience but still.

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  52. Related question: at what point did they know Shawn's career was "over" (until 2002) due to the back injury. Obviously they knew he was injured badly and Wrestlemania would be it for a while, but when was he formally "retired" (for 5 years)?

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  53. It's amazing, good commentary makes all the difference in the world for me personally. Royal Rumble 1992 is a good example -- it's not a show I pull out and watch intently very much, as there is about a 40 minute stretch there where it's a total dog of a show, but Heenan and Monsoon make it at least listenable. It's great background noise if nothing else.

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  54. It's just a quote from a DX promo where they accused the Harts of trashing the Nations lockerroom.

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  55. I think when he quit the Corporation and was beat down in the parking lot. He had been rehabing and rumored to be facing Triple H at WM but he was still having problems and had to have the back surgery in January 99.

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  56. I really don't see Bret fitting into the Attitude Era. When WCW had him doing seemingly random turns, teaming with his enemy, winning titles at random and losing them a week later, various swerves, winning matches with baseball bats, etc it just didn't suit him.

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  57. If Foley was suppsed to work with Mero after WM14, who was Austin going to work with?

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  58. Those racist pack of hyenas the Hart Foundation bah Gawd spray painted the Nation's locker room don't you remember!

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  59. Agreed. Bret was warned to kick out after 1 on all covers and he wasn't in the sharpshooter that long. Nothing he could have done about it beyond refusing to do the match.

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  60. Didn't guys switch back and forth during the territory days all the time? Seems like kind of an (unfortunately) lost art.

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  61. It still happens on the indy circuit.

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  62. Fair enough. That was a pretty funny promo too.

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  63. That was at least six months later.

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  64. Racist to the Core? did he say something offensive to big Zeke?

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  65. I also think that is a fair assessment. Interesting that I'm agreeing today with our two most vocal Bret haters (you and Dougie). Bret was a stopgap in late 92 to WM9,. He actually did get the ball for the spring/summer of 94. After that he never did again. He was a mid-carder who sold big overseas while Diesel was champ and then he was a lame-duck after being Diesel and waiting to job to Shawn at WM12. As much as I agree with Bret on Montreal and as much as I think he was a huge talent, Vince always used him as a stopgap or a plan B. Even the one time he was THE guy in 94, it was only because luger and Borga petered out and he needed time to build someone else.

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  66. WOW Unleashed should be right up your alley.

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  67. Edge in 2006 vs. Cena in Toronto.

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  68. That's what I would i have loved to see. Book a tie in the Royal Rumble between Shawn and Austin, then Bret has to face them both.

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  69. One of the things I've seen few people note about that match (which has been written about as much as any match in history) is that Shawn never actually went for a single pinfall cover, save for a crossbody which was rolled through. I imagine he realized that Bret would be suspicious of pinfall attempts, and to have a bunch of one-counts would look pretty bad and strange.

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  70. Bret's real abilities would matter if roles were reversed and he was the one who had to pin or submit Shawn for real.

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  71. I can't believe he'd be aware enough to kick out at 1 and not realize letting himself be put in the Sharpshooter might be a bad idea. It's funny that they never did act like he quit for real, they played up the confusion and controversy from the start, which sort of defeats the purpose.

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  72. In his book he said D.O.A were watching his back and followed him around all day, so Shawn wasn't worried about getting hurt.And Brisco taught him some defense holds incase Bret went after him in the ring.

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  73. Funny that you say that, I remember seeing somewhere (shoot interview I think) that Bret had Vader teach him a couple things just in case Shawn tried to shoot on him.

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  74. Really, Bret could've been the RTC leader without it being the RTC. Basically the crusader for quality family programming.

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  75. Wow. I never noticed that. Good thinking on HBK's fault if your theory is correct.

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  76. Sure, but we're talking the Montreal match. Therefore, it's moot.

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  77. Bobby heenan...you were the greatest!

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  78. "I can't see "Iron Mike" joining the Hart Foundation."

    I kind of wish he had, just because I imagine JR freaking out about Iron Mike turning Canadian would be hilarious.

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  79. Really? I could have sworn the Harris Twins were one of the main guys that had problems with Shawn Michaels?

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  80. I could have seen Bret taking Owen's spot in the Nation, or perhaps those guys merging into the Hart Foundation.

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  81. Dougie's a troll, and a certified asshole. Then cries when everyone treats him badly.

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  82. As other people said, the screwjob didn't work because Bret wasn't tough, it worked because he wasn't expecting it. I'd imagine that he was expecting a fast count, or Shawn to hold him down if they were going to screw him. He probably didn't expect anything as blatant as an obviously fake submission.

    Watching those Raws after Summerslam, where the focus shifts to DX, they're worse. Bret's heat was killed pretty deliberately in my eyes, putting him the patriot just wasn't going to work. Seeing Bret suddenly in that position didn't make much sense.

    If he sticks around, I'd imagine that they still give Undertaker the title shot at the Royal Rumble, but against Bret. Austin still wins the rumble, so what happens with Shawn? Since he won't be injured (no casket match) he still needs a main event feud. The triple threat idea I read just before would work, since with Bret still in the company, Vince probably can't afford Tyson.

    I would say that Vince had the Tyson idea mid 97; maybe after Ken Shamrock did the challenge to him on Raw, his people got in touch. Vince realised he couldn't afford Tyson and decided that the best way to get the money was to persuade Bret to leave for WCW. Bret made the most sense, as even though he was more professional than Shawn, his contract was the biggest, he was 40 and he was pushing against the way the WWF was going. Vince would secure Bret a lot of money, turn his company around and then in a few years, he could hire Bret back. So he built Shawn up as his big heel and planned to put the belt on him. Of course, the only problem was that since Shawn had pissed of Bret so much, Bret wouldn't do what needed to be done, and lose the belt to him. No one else made sense, Shamrock was too green, Vader had lost all his heat, Austin needed to win at mania. Undertaker could've won the belt actually, but he seemed to be on a bit of a holiday around then.

    The Screwjob was a gift for Bret, in many ways, it did hurt his feelings, but my god, we are still talking about it 15 years later. If he hadn't been injured by Goldberg he could've come back for one more massive money making run, shame he wasn't ready to forgive Vince in early 99 when his WCW contract was up for renewal.

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  83. Aw. I'm sorry your dad left you alone.

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  84. Bret was a mid level amateur at best -- A good one, but not on the level of an Angle or a Steiner -- And from what I have seen out of Bret, he was pretty even keeled and trusting -- I doubt any one of us would have reacted much differently than Brhe did -- Try going into the same set of circumstances and doing something else other than what he did in Montreal (waiting for the hate Phreddy)...

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  85. I just can't see Bret in the Nation. Then again who would of thought Owen would wind up in there either? So maybe...

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  86. Could you imagine how PISSED Bret would have been if he'd gotten into a legit fight with Shawn Michaels and lost? I would love to hear him rationalize that defeat.

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  87. I would give the edge to Steamboat too, but it's worth considering the opportunities Steamboat had in WCW that Santana didn't get in WWF. Neither guy really had a chance to shine in the WWF after their IC runs, but Steamboat built a legendary body of work in WCW while Santana stuck with the WWF and accepted a jobber to the stars role.

    It would have been interesting to see what Santana's career might have been like had he made the jump. We might be talking about his classic feud against Lex Luger or his epic brawls against Cactus Jack. Santana was a great utility player, he could suit many roles, so he might have actually been an asset to the occasionally depleted roster of WCW. If nothing else, he would have put on better matches than Paul Orndoff and JYD when they were used as last resort upper-midcard guys.

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  88. "WILLyoubeserious?!"

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  89. HHH said that the Harris Bros. were the first to meet them in the back and say something like "I don't know what's happening, but we've got your back."

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  90. Steamboat/Santana would have been an awesome tag team IMO.



    And by the time DX got its wheels in motion, Bret wasn't even a heel in the US anymore. At the MSG Raw he had to tell the audience he "didn't need their cheers."

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  91. Can You imagine how great that Wrestlemania card would be?

    World Title, Pinfalls Only
    Bret Hart Vs Steve Austin
    Guest Ref: Mike Tyson

    Tag Team Title Street Fight
    DX (HBK/HHH) Vs British Bulldog & Owen Hart

    Intercontinental Title
    The Rock Vs Ken Shamrock

    Kane Vs The Undertaker

    European Championship
    Mark Mero Vs Goldust

    Dumpster Match for the Tag Team Title No1 Contendership
    NAO Vs Cactus Jack & Chainsaw Charlie

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  92. What's sad is that I initially misread this I thought people were seriously talking about Iron Mike Sharpe joining the Hart Foundation!

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  93. I don't think they liked him, he mentions them threatening him years earlier, they said they were defending the company.

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  94. Could the WWF have defeated the WCW without the Austin vs Vince feud? And I don't know if The Rock would have gotten so big, without the Corporation.

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  95. It's funny, because when I was a kid, Bret was the man. He was the champion, he was the best...but looking back Vince was always trying to replace him. Even when Luger didn't work out and Bret got the title back he still defended it in the midcard behind Lawler/Piper, Undertaker/Undertaker and Undertaker/Yokozuna. His third reign was terrible, they wouldn't let him beat anyone aside from Bulldog and he was defending in the undercard a month after winning his last title. Vince just never seemed to give him the super down your throat until he's a mega star push he's done with others. I can see why he thought it was time to move away from Bret in 1997 but there's not a lot we would have missed out on if he'd given Bret a legit run as the face of the company from 92 until 96. I don't know if Shawn makes it to the top the same way without it but I could have done without Diesel Power.

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  96. Bret was a great heel, but he didn't seem into it. He wouldn't go heel outside of the US, and even then he tried to be a bad guy only to the American wrestling fans who cheered Austin, HBK, etc...Shawn was willing to be an obnoxious prick coward while Bret still tried to be the true good guy who's views just weren't popular in the corrupt world around him.

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  97. "I knew that if I had hurt Vince's Boy Toy, I'd be in the dog house with him even more. Luckily for me, the boys in the back understood my reasoning for letting Shawn kick my ass. Many, including Owen, Bulldog, Jim, the Harris Twins, Foley, Taker, and Austin, came up to me with tears in their eyes to shake my hand and tell me that I was still the best wrestler in the locker room. Arn Anderson called me and told me Ric Flair fell out of his chair when he heard that I had taken the fall."

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  98. Well, shit, considering Triple H is the only person to pin Shawn Michaels in 1997...

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  99. Amazing. I think we need more Bret Hart Autobiographical fan-fiction.

    "I could tell Shawn was already blown-up after the second punch. He'd spent the night partying and doing drugs while I'd gone to bed early with a Croatian woman and made it to the gym in the morning. The rest of the fight consisted of me basically guiding Shawn's fists to my face and making sure he didn't injure himself. I took that beating like a professional; that's what separates me from guys like Hogan."

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  100. can someone start a tumblr for this?

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  101. Yeah, it could have been pretty cool. Although doing Bret-Austin III and HHH vs. HBK (alongside Undertaker vs. Kane) would have worked as well. Perhaps the Outlawz vs. Owen/Bulldog on the undercard. Mick vs. Funk in the proposed 'Death Match' sort of deal. Rock-Shamrock, the mixed tag, and the lightheavyweight match can stay. Maybe throw in Vader destroying Jarrett or something, to fill out a 9-match card.

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