I think the real problem with the WWE is encapsulated within the Miz.
Unlike other people, I am actually a pretty big Miz fan. I think he's a great mic guy and a decent wrestler. His main event run was one of the few times WWE actually struck while the iron was hot and, I guess, unlike everyone else in the world, I think, at the time, he deserved the championship. He didn't deserve to main event WM but putting him in the role they gave Bryan the next year (Curtain jerking ass who gets stomped immediately) would've made for a hot crowd in WM 27.
My problem with Miz is this new babyface run. I think Miz's success as a heel was that people genuinely hated him. They didn't like him as a person or a character. Miz helped matters with his mic work but at the end of the day, if Miz succeeded, it was because there was nothing redeeming about him. Now, WWE is using the exact same character, w/o any change, and expecting people to cheer him. They've given no reason why we should cheer him and there is still no redeeming quality about the character. They've just said, "He's a face now, so cheer him." I know the logic was, "We've done everything we can with him as a heel, so lets turn him and see what happens." But that cheapens the idea of what a face and heel are. In the 80s, they never would have changed Dibiase or Rude (To name just two) for one simple reason: There's no reason to cheer a guy who bought his way to the top or a guy who continually talks about how he's banging your girlfriend. Beyond that, it made an actual philosophical point: These are bad traits and shouldn't be emulated. What's the message with the Miz? Arrogance, cheating and whining are bad traits until we say they aren't?
In a sense, this is worse than when Russo was turning wrestlers left and right. At least, back then, since "Shades of Grey" (not the book) was such a big thing, changing, say, Hardcore Holly wasn't such a big deal since there was nothing to his character except that he was hardcore. Miz is a character with definable traits that a fans, almost to a person, hate. Unless you give the character a complete makeover, there's no point in changing him, and, in fact, it's insulting to the fans.
Thoughts?
Yeah, this Miz babyface thing is a disaster. Fans clearly don't give a shit about him as this character because as noted he's the same douchebag he was before. I do think that if JoMo returns at the Rumble as rumored Miz could tag along as his comedy foil again, but this thing is a dead end for Miz as a top guy as it stands.
He seems to get a pretty good reaction from the live crowd.
ReplyDeleteDoes he really need to be referred to as "JoMo"? He's already lame as it is, he doesn't need a lame nickname.
ReplyDeleteMiz, as a it stands right now, is one of the worst faces ever imo that the fans are supposed to take as a upper midcarder. I didn't dislike him as a heel, although I thought he got pushed way beyond his means, but this "turn" is grating. For me, he's an instant channel turn.
ReplyDeleteBut what do you think?
ReplyDeleteI thought that was a really solid e-mail.
ReplyDeleteI don't mind him when he hosts MizTV and think that his face schtick is actually ok when given those limitations.
ReplyDeleteI'm a bigger miz fan than most. The face turn doesn't make a lot of sense though. I don't know why the wwe hates serious faces. Everybody has to be smirky jokesters.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Hits on a lot of true points.
ReplyDeleteDisagree on Rude. Rude could've kept talking about banging hot chicks so long as he didn't specifically refer to the crowd as sweat hogs or whatever, and if he wasn't referring to the crowd's girlfriends specifically when talking about who he intends to bang. There's a certain level of respect guys have for any guy who can fuck any woman he wants. It's the James Bond thing. If Rude had been booked as well in the WWF as he was in WCW he would've ended up becoming a face sometime in the early '90s. It was inevitable. If his back held up, he could've been a massive star during the Attitude Era.
ReplyDeleteI think the problem with Miz is that he's playing Gordon Gekko as interpreted by Jim Carrey. So he's this sleazy, well-dressed rich douche who does crazy voices and acts like a human cartoon. It's not likable. Miz the person, y'know Mike Mizanin as the hard-luck underdog who has had to scratch and claw for what little respect he's been given begrudgingly by fans and peers, is likable. If they allowed that guy to show up, if they'd let him work from underneath as the guy who has a chip on his shoulder and feels like he has to go out there every night to prove something, I think he'd be much more enjoyable. Because he's not an unlikable person in real life. He might look like a douche but he's a lot easier to relate to than Cena or Kofi or Ryback.
Miz a touch more serious is maybe the tweak his character needs. He's just soooo over the top jokester, that to me, he comes off as obnoxious. The fact that his jokes are Cena level lame doesn't help.
ReplyDeleteIf he cut a serious promo about making it in the business and working his ass off to get where he is and thanks the fans for supporting him (cheap pop!), it would go a long way.
ReplyDeleteI just hope that if Morrison does return that they're willing to give him the push he deserved in 2011. He had every right to be pissed off when his WrestleMania "reward" for stealing the show at 3 straight PPVs was to be the afterthought in a six-person match with Divas and one of the most pointless celebrity cameos in WM history that was dead on arrival following UT and Trips.
ReplyDeleteFuck no fuck no fuck no fuck no fuck no.......
ReplyDeleteMorrison DOES NOT deserve a push and if anything, should only be brought back to be the guy EVERYONE beats the shit out of, because he fucking sucks.....
See, I don't think he's doing the same character at all. I guess at the core of it he's got the same base -- annoying dude who tries to get under the skin of the other guys (just with heels now instead of the good guys) -- but the big difference is now he panders to the crowd. If he played the same exact character as before and just switched to being a dick to the heels (and adding the virtue of being willing to take on any and every fight) I think it would be great.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that he's slightly added the virtuous babyface ideal of always being up for a challenge and sticking up for what's right but the more obvious change is that now he says something to upset a heel and then very visually (literally and figuratively is what I'm going for) looks to the audience for their approval. The Miz character that got over did stuff like that because it amused him, not because he thought it was what the people wanted. Now his whole shtick is based around making poopy jokes (even worse than Cena's!) and begging the crowd to love him.
It's a damn shame, because I really believe that the dude is definitely good enough to be a very strong good guy, even at a main event level -- he just needs to cut the cutesy shit and start being a man. Miz was a great heel because he was a complete dick that threw out challenges and then did whatever he could to win without getting his hair messed up. He would be a great face if he was a complete dick that threw out challenges and then backed up his own words.
What's funny is, he actually did the heel version of that. Hell, I thought this video almost turned him face on the spot at WM 27.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I remember that, but it was slanted slightly heel. If he did that, with passion, tip the cap to the fans and cut about 90% of his lame jokes, his face turn could be salvaged.
ReplyDeleteCan I ask why he doesn't deserve it and sucks? He does some damn entertaining things in his matches, works hard, has good matches with not only a Kofi or Rey but also a Sheamus (their series really made me view Sheamus in a different light), he's pretty good on the mic not amazing but again he's entertaining and the crowd seems to really enjoy him. If I'm being honest I don't know if he can be a big time main eventer but I can't see the harm in giving him a shot and see what he can do with a big push. I'm still not 100% sure what his backstage heat was, did it have to do with Batista stealing his girl or something? But if he didn't do anything major I see no reason in not giving him another shot.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure it did involve Melina.
ReplyDeleteMiz was turned face because of Be a Star. Nothing more, nothing less. He's a very media-friendly personality and handles that stuff well, and in the bizarrely kayfabe-warped mind of a McMahon, the onscreen character needs to be a face to match. Same deal with Otunga, though in his case, they've adapted by basically writing him off TV altogether, for the most part.
ReplyDeleteThat WM promo is gold.
ReplyDeleteNas was a nice touch.
It's not just the WWE. They are death for babyfaces. They have no idea how to write them, push them, or book them.
ReplyDeleteBecause he is a stupid, worthless Edge clone, except with no charisma or skill as a wrestler and was shoved down our collective throats even though he was not worthy of such a massive push?
ReplyDeleteSo them do something to make him a babyface then. Have him standup to bullies and get his ass kicked to draw some sympathy, then have him find a way to beat the bully. He is an awesome media friendly type, so have him do so,e babyface like things.
ReplyDeleteI mean, contrast with Orton, who was turned face pretty much the same way, except he had been a badass so when all of a sudden he was a badass face Sheamus the heel instead of Cena the face it worked. I literally had no idea Miz (or Del Rio) were babyfaces in that six-man on Monday and couldn't understand why tommy dreamer was raging with them.
In fact, the original emailer was right. They're turning this generation DiBiase (Del rio) and Rude (Miz) face, and no one understands why they're to be cheering them.
It's Jesse, don't take it seriously.
ReplyDeleteCame here to say the exact same thing.
ReplyDeleteThese days in the WWE the only difference between babyfaces and heels are the people they face. Most of the heels rarely do anything heelish and most of the babyfaces act and wrestle heelish. Sheamus acts more like a heel now with his sneak attacks than when when he was a heel when he attacked you head on. Hell No I'm still not sure when they turned face but all of a sudden they were hanging out with the faces and wrestling the heels. Prime Time Players post-AW are probably the two most likeable dudes on the roster and who never done anything heelish. John Cena we could talk for hours about how heelish he behaves. Dolph Ziggler, the women he hangs out with are heels but he with his fancy moves and his underdog wrestling style is pure babyface. The list goes on and on.
ReplyDeleteEverything about this post is on the money.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I think another thing making the face turn hard on The Miz, with hardcore fans anyway, is his corporate puppet demeanor. We know he's a big wrestling fan, and he scratched and clawed his way for what little respect he's given, but he's borderline insufferable spouting out all the gung-ho corporate lingo in WWE documentaries and on talk shows. I took umbrage with Jim Cornette saying that he hated The Miz because he felt that Miz only wanted to use wrestling as a stepping stone to an acting career, as I feel that Miz genuinely wants to be a WWE superstar, and only a WWE superstar, for the most part. But it's easy to see how someone would get the impression that he's simply a sheen, speck-free corporate product when he's sent out there to shill, and parrot lingo that no sentient being would use in regular conversation.
Miz is only this generation's Rude if Rude stopped progressing as a wrestler and performer after he won his first Intercontinental Title, but continued to get pushed harder and harder from that point on. I don't even see a comparison between characters for the two.
ReplyDeleteHe's an Edge clone? Because they both make proper use of conditioner?
ReplyDeleteWouldn't that make both of them Kevin Nash clones then?
ReplyDeleteEven when you agree with the general consensus here, people down vote you...
ReplyDeleteI really miss the days when the only love the top faces had for each other was respect.
ReplyDeleteI will respond to this because surely Jesse can't (and didn't) do his good point justice. John Morrison is the worst part of wrestling. Cool move, cool move, cool pose, sell for just a tad, cool move, cool reversal, finish. There's no story to that. It's why a bunch of the X Division clusterfucks weren't that great to watch on repeat. Shawn Michaels is hailed as one of the greats because he can make his cool moves, poses, and reversals mean something rather than just to pop a crowd for a half-second.
ReplyDeleteYes, Morrison has been in good matches, but the credit is due to the opponents he has faced.
And his charisma is like a finely carved piece of mud. Sure, it can imitate what we thought was cool when we were younger, but it's a terrible imitation. He's Robocop III.
Santino told a better story when he was final two in the Rumble than John Morrison ever has. The look on Santino's face as he loaded up the Cobra was great and I don't even like Santino but I wanted him to win. Morrison will never have that...ever.
They have no idea how to write, period.
ReplyDeleteI'm speaking more in terms of character, not skills. They are both cocky assholes.
ReplyDeletemeh, who cares. say what you're gonna say.
ReplyDeleteThe promo he cut on MVP years ago effectively made him for life in the WWE. I'd say it's as important as CM Punk's 'shoot' promo before MITB 2011... because up to that point Miz was a guy, and after that point he was getting the 'Randy Orton turn them face' pops. But, like Orton, they waited too long to do it... AND stopped him from doing what he did well.
ReplyDeleteAs people have noted, The Miz should be the cocky underdog. He's not humble, he's a hard-working son of a gun who believes he can beat anyone. Heck, give him DDP's old gimmick of 'guy who no-one thought could make it, and thusly studies and trains constantly to become one of the best.' Because, and I do disagree with Punk here, The Miz is proof with Ziggler of someone who overcame every obstacle and made it to the top despite the WWE.
Watch Sheamus vs Morison from TLC a few years back and tell me he had no psychology--that match was INSANE, and people DID buy Morrison, so naturally he was buried
ReplyDeleteI will until the day I die attest that John Morrison was 100 times better then Miz. Morrison was meh on the stick for sure, but he was so much more then a spot monkey, he was having great matches up and down the card-and was rewarded with a burial and his future endeavors
ReplyDeleteHis matches with Punk were great. If they hadn't stuck him with the split-leg corkscrew he would be less derided. It IS a piece of shit move.
ReplyDeleteMorrison debuts with DGUSA January 25th, so I doubt he'll be in the rumble. Could be wrong, of course.
ReplyDeleteJealousy.
ReplyDeleteI bet that's it.
ReplyDeletePretty much couldn't agree more
ReplyDeleteCouldn't imagine why...
ReplyDeleteThe worst part of it was that he never really connected with it, he usually just landed with one arm outstretched on them. I used to call it the World's Most Convoluted Pinkbelly. When he was just using that running knee strike to finish for a while he was doing ok. He needs an image makeover too, the glam rocker thing ran its course.
ReplyDeleteHe's gonna be wrestling Eddie Edwards on 2CW's first iPPV on 4/20, so he's booked through Wrestlemania time. But I imagine he either gets to finish his indie commitments or just scuttle the indie shows if he re-signs.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately we can blame all this on Austin. Before him, there were certain codes of behavior that heels and faces held to and if you had certain traits, that dictated where you were as a heel or face (give or take some of the shittier things Hogan used to do). After Austin made it acceptable to act like a heel and still be booked as a face, all the rules went out the window and now someone like Miz can have shitty personality traits and still be considered a "good guy". That's why I honestly think they should go back to the "shades of gray" stuff where depending on a given situation a guy could be in the right or wrong of a scenario. Nowadays "face" and "heel" don't really mean much of anything, they just basically describe which team you're playing for and not what your motivations are. They should have hats.
ReplyDeleteI agree. Round hats for heels, tall hats for faces.
ReplyDeleteIt always seemed like an easy fix too...if he would just move them back a foot or two, he could make decent connection. The dangerous knee was badass, sad that he just used it for transition.
ReplyDeleteI'm tired of faces these days thanking the fans. The homogenous generic WWE babyface is old hat.
ReplyDeleteI miss characters like Austin, Rock and Foley that could just be interesting characters, and the fans naturally gravitated toward them because of that.
you are correct. You watch old JCP or WWF from 84-87 especially and you had such well-defined faces and heels. faces did a clean break. faces didn't use closed fists until the heel did. faces were humble. While it does seem hokey to watch it now, the crowds were insane for the faces and booed the heels out of the building. Now, everyone cheats,. Everyone sneak attacks. Everyone is arrogant. Everyone attacks his opponent with closed fists, fails to break on the ropes, beats them up outside the ring, etc. There simply isn't a line in the sand and I think as a result the crowd is lukewarm to most guys. I don't advocate shades of grey stuff because I think that makes the problem worse. I advocate going back to clear face/heel lines.
ReplyDeleteWasn't the nWo, or really just Hall and Nash, doing what you described before Austin did it?
ReplyDeleteNope. Hall/Nash were outright heels.
ReplyDeleteThe fans just bought them as bigger than WCW is what made them cool, but they were heels through and through.
once they figured out they were bulletproof in terms of doing jobs, it was over, but that was after austin, but not by much.
That sounds awesome! I love Edwards AND Morison!
ReplyDeleteYeah, Star ship pain was bad, but that knee was KILLER
ReplyDeleteHe could still appear at the Rumble and those indy dates could easily be cancelled. I'm not positive, but I believe this was what happened for Eddie Guerrero's second WWE run.
ReplyDeleteMorrison had three straight PPV's with show-stealing spots (TLC, the Rumble, Elimination Chamber) and his reward was getting jobbed out the minute Melina opened her mouth.
ReplyDelete3.5 snowflakes, good, not great and lacked a conclusive finish.
ReplyDeleteBad Nas songs are still good.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Foley and Rock never descended to cheap pops.
ReplyDeleteYeah, plenty of his matches lacked psychology, but his work from 2010 on was a lot crisper, his ladder match with Sheamus, his streetfight with Miz, hell,even his triple threat submission, all good matches, and not just because of his opponents or because of his spots.
ReplyDeleteAlso, isn't there a place for the high-flying babyface for the heel to beat the shit out of? Just because they aren't actually doing the limbwork doesn't me he isn't involved.
Uh, except ADR was never booked as well as DiBiase, and he was a babyface for 10 years in mexico.
ReplyDeleteAlso, his turn displayed a lot more subtlety and skill than Miz, the delay before tagging in Dreamer, the run to save Ricardo, his change in ring style and moves. Yeah he hasn't been getting any mic time, but ADR's turn has been fine.
They made a good step in character change with the Parkour stuff, the haircut and the beard (and yes, I do think that mattered, image=character in wrestling).
ReplyDeleteBUT WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE WAR ON SPIDERMAN?!?!
ReplyDeleteTrue. I think he could use the experience, even if it's brief, so I hope they let him finish any dates, if he's coming back at all.
ReplyDeleteHe was the afterthought in that match because he threw a tantrum about his locker room cancer of a girlfriend and didn't have the brains to at least confront Vince McMahon mano-a-mano about it. He's a great in-ring guy, but the dude has no street smarts when it comes to workplace politics.
ReplyDelete