Oh yeah, their time as a team ended the night they lost the WWF tag team titles to the Dudley Boyz at No Way Out 2000. They should NOT be repackaged at this point.
I don't see why not. Their ring-work always stank, so it's not like age could make them much worse. And they'll elevate any team they work with, based on name value alone.
I don't think they have much rub to give, I don't see them having good matches with anyone and I can't see how they could get back over without the catch phrase.
Oh, you didn't know? Your ass betta call somebody!
I miss those guys. I would like to see them back again on RAW. The New Age Outlaws and The Hardy Boyz were my two favorite tag teams from back in the days of the attitude era.
I don't understand what kind of actual rub an old returning star is supposed to give anyway. If the returning star wins, the new act couldn't even beat someone past their prime. If the new act does win, they beat up an old star who should have already hung up the boots.
Neither scenario really "helps" the new guy. Even something with Punk vs Austin or Cena vs Rock...I can see some "passing of the torch" there, but purely due to how huge of a name Austin and Rock were during their runs.
The only way I really feel a big name can pass something on to a new name is when the big name is winding down his career and loses on his way out to the new guy.
A lot of time "the rub" is just appearing in a high profile match/feud in a higher spot on the card than those guys would be normally. DX vs. Legacy was a good example of this as it was the first time anyone had ever cared about Cody/Ted and the matches were pretty decent also. I don't think NAO have anything to offer a team like Rhodes Scholars simply because NAO aren't a top of the card act and people are already reacting to Rhodes Scholars.
There's a difference between this kind of feud and something like Punk/Austin which is as much a dream match/cash grab as any kind of "passing of the torch" given that Austin's torch has been blown out, sprayed out and hung up many years ago. But hey, it'll sell 1 million+ PPVs so that's all the reason you need to do it.
Rock, Lesnar, etc. can give a rub because they still look look credible. The thing about the Outlaws is, so do they. Because they always looked bad, even in their prime, AND they were winners. Maybe Road Dogg's clumsy and paunchy now, but he always was. Maybe Gunn's only got one good move now, instead of two good moves. How much worse could it be?
You can tell Keith has always had major heat against Billy Gunn. Didn't he claim that the WWE had Billy face Benoit to see if he was capable for a singles run? I actually think Gunn is kinda underrated. He certainly didn't suck and sadly, he and Christian had the best match of the night at a TNA Houseshow I went to. I was always a fan at least.
Billy Gunn literally added NOTHING to the New Age Outlaws. Him and XPac were two guys who brought nothing to DX. The only reason the Outlaws got over was because Road Dogg had the catch phrase. Without Road Dogg, Billy floundered.
Always thought Billy was solid... Fast, athletic, strong... He just oversold everything and was clumsy way too often. A nostalgia PG outlaws run could add to the tag division. I don't see there being harm in it. With that said.... Highly doubtful it would happen.
I think I'm the only person who didn't think Billy Gunn was THAT bad. It's not like they gave him the super-push and it failed. He won the KOTR in June, jobbed to The Rock in August and was back in a tag team by September. The Mr.Ass character just didn't work for an upper card heel that was supposed to be taken seriously. They really didn't change anything about him from his tag team character - same look, same tights, same finisher, same name. Ironically when they did change his character/look they tried to push him as a face. By that point the ship sailed on any serious singles run for him.
Just to add.... Injuries prevented this scenario but I always thought Billy would of been a good foil to Austin even if it was for a month or two. He would of bumped around like crazy for Austin... Worst case a Billy face turn back to DX would of popped the crowd big.
They seemed to know they wanted to push him as a singles guy but had no idea how or when to do it. They would tease it quite often. I think the best bet would have been to just give him the IC title without turning him heel at WM15. Establish him as a face since the Mr.Ass character worked as a face, then you can turn him heel.
I truly believe (just a hunch) that at some point he was supposed to be the guy who hit Austin. I remember them teasing it, when they brought billy back from injury. He was promptly stunned and cast off. But I think it would of been cool and Rikishi could of just kept doing what he was doing. That was a perfect role for him. Midcard face who could always be believable if facing a heel champ like HHH
It's funny watching them in hindsight before they joined DX and were just the new obnoxious team in the tag division that were practically given the belts after two weeks. First off, thank God for Road Dogg's mic skills, because neither guy looked like a star with their awful (especially Dogg's) ring attire. And second, their attire REALLY dates the show, ironically enough, when they wore South Park shirts. For some reason, THAT screams 90's to me, despite the fact the show is still on the air.
What did XPac bring that made him special. In the entire time he was in DX from 1998-2000 he never cut one money promo. Never cut one good promo. He just stood there and would yell into the mic once every few months. And he had one of the stupidest moves ever used inside a wrestling ring. Really what did X-Pac bring to the DX table?
I just got back from the card at MSG tonight, the opening match was Rhodes Scholars vs. The New Age Outlaws. It may have been the worst match I've ever seen Sandow and Rhodes in, although it wasn't absolutely horrible. Almost the whole match was heat segments on Billy then Road Dogg until Gunn hit the Fame-Ass-er on Cody pinned him. Yes, the NAO went over Rhodes Scholars...
The NAO got one hell of a reaction, though, as soon as their music hit. Given the location, it was probably a good move.
People remember his promo the night he came back pretty well. And before they got the entire WCW midcard, he was one of the better workers on the roster. That may be damning with faint praise, but still.
Ok I'll concede that one. That was a good promo. But after that he was lost in DX imo. It was Triple H, Chyna, and Road Dogg. Him and Billy were the Godfather and Mark Henry of DX.
Stick Road Dogg in the booth. He can talk and is very entertaining, which is more than can be said for some announcers. He'd be great on a show like NXT where he could snark away.
This was how it always used to be in the late 90's/early 00's: Billy Gunn would be gone for a while, everyone would think back and go "You know, Billy Gunn wasn't that bad", then he'd get the uber pop upon his return, and in his first match, he'd remind everyone of how much he sucked. Lather, rinse, repeat for the better part of five years.
Hmmm... (from the Torch, regarding tomorrow's Raw taping)
"Raw (Long Island, N.Y.): Raw continues to Zack Ryder's homebase with an advertised main event of John Cena vs. Dolph Ziggler (w/A.J. Lee and Big E. Langston). Plus, the New Age Outlaws are scheduled."
The crazy thing about Billy Gunn is his nickname was Badd Ass yet everything about the character focused way too much on the "Ass" part. Never understood that part.
(NB: Yes, Ziggler grew into the role... but he got a longer sustained push. Gunn never got a long-term singles push. Besides, what's wrong with overselling?)
Yeah, the WWF was really quick to jump on the South Park bandwagon during the first couple seasons- I think it looks dated now because while the show has been on for forever, and it's often very good still, it was only REALLY popular when it first came out, and certainly most of the merch was sold back then.
I thought it was generally accepted that he had the "Benoit Test" to see if he was capable of having a good match, and when he fucked it up, they finally axed his push. Similar to how they had the "Waltman Test" with X-Pac: if you can't have a good match with 90s X-Pac, you couldn't have a good match PERIOD.
WWE has a lot of tag teams, however they don't have an over jobber team, like Kaientai, Killer Bees, etc. Putting NAO out there in short matches against guys like PTP & 3MB then having them lose to them, would do a lot of good.
It was also pretty huge at that time that a WCW wrestler was actually jumping ship to the WWF.. which at the time felt like a sinking ship. That promo he cut on the WCW was one of the turning points in the Monday Night Wars and was a crack in the ice of WCW's dominance. X-Pac had that Brian Pillman "loose cannon" vibe and fans wanted to see what he'd do next. The best days of DX were right after he joined and they started to make fun of the other wrestlers and the "Invasion" scenes...
thought he brought more to the table than he did... tore hhh/hbk a new ass on the shoot but then once tna dried up started recanting how they were on drugs and shit but other than that no.
Nothing really wrong.... It was more Billy being sloppy that killed his pushes plus injuries. His match with Benoit at Armageddon 2000 was billy in a nutshell
That makes sense... Looking back at Austin's run there were missed opportunities to make stars. He really didnt have that many foes and he put the kabosh on a few programs that would of been fresh (not to mention walking about prior to his match with Eddie)
I'm a fan of the Pre-Waltman DX as well, but I know for me, their (Waltman era DX) antics made me flip the channel to WCW less than before. Less edgy.. but I'll be damned if them showing up at WCW headquarters wasn't great TV!! For a company that rarely acknowledged their competition, it was ballsy and made the WWF seem the place where anything could legitimately happen. That's all I'm sayin'..
You obviously never saw his post-WM14 promo, which was a crucial moment in the reshaping of DX and by extension, the Attitude Era to a fairly decent extent. He was a notable name who defected (yeah, he was fired) from WCW/nWo. And in 98-99, he was the best worker in the group until HHH made the leap. He got a legit *** match out of Shane, for fuck's sake. And at that time he was very over. Saying X-Pac brought nothing sounds like the words of someone who isn't old enough to remember the late 90's and thinks that's the correct smarky thing to say because they've heard people use the term "X-Pac heat," which wasn't a thing until 2001 or so. In 1998 and 1999, Pac was very over, still a borderline great worker and a vital part of DX.
But unlike Rock and Brock, they're not revelant anymore. NAO's last big run in WWE was 12 years ago...that pretty much makes them forgotten by anyone still in high school.
Bringing them back now would require reintroducing them...just to job them out? Not worth it.
He brought the bronco buster, which was then usurped by any number of Divas, and everyone here has at least one person who they want to hit them with that move.
I thought Gunn was pretty athletic. But he was never given that BIG push. Aside from that one big match up with The Rock at a summerslam ppv, he was never fairly given a push to the main event.
I remember the first reveal being "He had blond hair!" and I thought WWE was going to drag it out into a game of Guess Who? where they revealed a physical characteristic every week. Which would have been great.
Oh yeah, their time as a team ended the night they lost the WWF tag team titles to the Dudley Boyz at No Way Out 2000. They should NOT be repackaged at this point.
ReplyDeleteI just edited (fixed) their movesets in WWE '13 and it kind of has me wanting to see them have another run. Sue me.
ReplyDeleteI don't see why not. Their ring-work always stank, so it's not like age could make them much worse. And they'll elevate any team they work with, based on name value alone.
ReplyDeleteI don't think they have much rub to give, I don't see them having good matches with anyone and I can't see how they could get back over without the catch phrase.
ReplyDeleteI'm a mark for the Outlaws so I'm up for it.
ReplyDeleteOh, you didn't know?
ReplyDeleteYour ass betta call somebody!
I miss those guys. I would like to see them back again on RAW. The New Age Outlaws and The Hardy Boyz were my two favorite tag teams from back in the days of the attitude era.
I will always have a soft spot for those guys.
After you hear their entrance catchphrase, you'll be immediately bored with them. That's all they have at this point.
ReplyDeleteMemory makes the heart grow fonder and I think some of you are suffering from that if you want to see these guys back in regular rotation.
I don't understand what kind of actual rub an old returning star is supposed to give anyway. If the returning star wins, the new act couldn't even beat someone past their prime. If the new act does win, they beat up an old star who should have already hung up the boots.
ReplyDeleteNeither scenario really "helps" the new guy. Even something with Punk vs Austin or Cena vs Rock...I can see some "passing of the torch" there, but purely due to how huge of a name Austin and Rock were during their runs.
The only way I really feel a big name can pass something on to a new name is when the big name is winding down his career and loses on his way out to the new guy.
A lot of time "the rub" is just appearing in a high profile match/feud in a higher spot on the card than those guys would be normally. DX vs. Legacy was a good example of this as it was the first time anyone had ever cared about Cody/Ted and the matches were pretty decent also. I don't think NAO have anything to offer a team like Rhodes Scholars simply because NAO aren't a top of the card act and people are already reacting to Rhodes Scholars.
ReplyDeleteThere's a difference between this kind of feud and something like Punk/Austin which is as much a dream match/cash grab as any kind of "passing of the torch" given that Austin's torch has been blown out, sprayed out and hung up many years ago. But hey, it'll sell 1 million+ PPVs so that's all the reason you need to do it.
Rock, Lesnar, etc. can give a rub because they still look look credible. The thing about the Outlaws is, so do they. Because they always looked bad, even in their prime, AND they were winners. Maybe Road Dogg's clumsy and paunchy now, but he always was. Maybe Gunn's only got one good move now, instead of two good moves. How much worse could it be?
ReplyDeleteYou can tell Keith has always had major heat against Billy Gunn. Didn't he claim that the WWE had Billy face Benoit to see if he was capable for a singles run? I actually think Gunn is kinda underrated. He certainly didn't suck and sadly, he and Christian had the best match of the night at a TNA Houseshow I went to. I was always a fan at least.
ReplyDeleteIf they were a mid-level tag team then no problem.
ReplyDeleteIT's Billy Guns portion that bored me...
ReplyDeleteBilly Gunn literally added NOTHING to the New Age Outlaws. Him and XPac were two guys who brought nothing to DX. The only reason the Outlaws got over was because Road Dogg had the catch phrase. Without Road Dogg, Billy floundered.
ReplyDeleteAlways thought Billy was solid... Fast, athletic, strong... He just oversold everything and was clumsy way too often. A nostalgia PG outlaws run could add to the tag division. I don't see there being harm in it. With that said.... Highly doubtful it would happen.
ReplyDeleteI think I'm the only person who didn't think Billy Gunn was THAT bad. It's not like they gave him the super-push and it failed. He won the KOTR in June, jobbed to The Rock in August and was back in a tag team by September. The Mr.Ass character just didn't work for an upper card heel that was supposed to be taken seriously. They really didn't change anything about him from his tag team character - same look, same tights, same finisher, same name. Ironically when they did change his character/look they tried to push him as a face. By that point the ship sailed on any serious singles run for him.
ReplyDeleteJust to add.... Injuries prevented this scenario but I always thought Billy would of been a good foil to Austin even if it was for a month or two. He would of bumped around like crazy for Austin... Worst case a Billy face turn back to DX would of popped the crowd big.
ReplyDeleteThey seemed to know they wanted to push him as a singles guy but had no idea how or when to do it. They would tease it quite often. I think the best bet would have been to just give him the IC title without turning him heel at WM15. Establish him as a face since the Mr.Ass character worked as a face, then you can turn him heel.
ReplyDeleteI truly believe (just a hunch) that at some point he was supposed to be the guy who hit Austin. I remember them teasing it, when they brought billy back from injury. He was promptly stunned and cast off. But I think it would of been cool and Rikishi could of just kept doing what he was doing. That was a perfect role for him. Midcard face who could always be believable if facing a heel champ like HHH
ReplyDeleteIt's funny watching them in hindsight before they joined DX and were just the new obnoxious team in the tag division that were practically given the belts after two weeks. First off, thank God for Road Dogg's mic skills, because neither guy looked like a star with their awful (especially Dogg's) ring attire. And second, their attire REALLY dates the show, ironically enough, when they wore South Park shirts. For some reason, THAT screams 90's to me, despite the fact the show is still on the air.
ReplyDeleteSaying X-Pac brought nothing is just not true whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteBilly Gunn? Yeah, any number of people could have filled his role. Agree on that.
That nostalgia is enough to have some value if used correctly in a short-term run (see: putting Rhodes Scholars over huge).
ReplyDeleteWhat did XPac bring that made him special. In the entire time he was in DX from 1998-2000 he never cut one money promo. Never cut one good promo. He just stood there and would yell into the mic once every few months. And he had one of the stupidest moves ever used inside a wrestling ring. Really what did X-Pac bring to the DX table?
ReplyDeleteI just got back from the card at MSG tonight, the opening match was Rhodes Scholars vs. The New Age Outlaws. It may have been the worst match I've ever seen Sandow and Rhodes in, although it wasn't absolutely horrible. Almost the whole match was heat segments on Billy then Road Dogg until Gunn hit the Fame-Ass-er on Cody pinned him. Yes, the NAO went over Rhodes Scholars...
ReplyDeleteThe NAO got one hell of a reaction, though, as soon as their music hit. Given the location, it was probably a good move.
Good card, overall, too. Had a lot of fun.
People remember his promo the night he came back pretty well. And before they got the entire WCW midcard, he was one of the better workers on the roster. That may be damning with faint praise, but still.
ReplyDeleteWaltman cut the post wrestlemania 14 promo that the new dx and HHH desperatley needed--nwo star power and an edge with Shawn gone.
ReplyDeleteOk I'll concede that one. That was a good promo. But after that he was lost in DX imo. It was Triple H, Chyna, and Road Dogg. Him and Billy were the Godfather and Mark Henry of DX.
ReplyDeleteNot to rag on peoples ideas...but holy fuck balls is that idea terrible. Hell, that would've been terrible six years ago.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Waltman could work. He did get lost in the shuffle however
ReplyDeleteThe rumors online at the time were that Stone Cold refused to work a program with Billy Gunn.
ReplyDeleteI agree. I always thought the Outlaws sucked.
ReplyDeleteLooking back at the original attack, wasn't Gunn the only guy not involved in the pre-hit and run assault?
ReplyDeleteYup, I was gonna chime in with that if someone else didn't.
ReplyDeleteYou have got to be fucking kidding me. WHY?!?!
ReplyDeleteStick Road Dogg in the booth. He can talk and is very entertaining, which is more than can be said for some announcers. He'd be great on a show like NXT where he could snark away.
ReplyDeletebecause it's a house show and results mean less then Jack shit so you may as well let the crowd go home happy with everything
ReplyDeleteThis was how it always used to be in the late 90's/early 00's: Billy Gunn would be gone for a while, everyone would think back and go "You know, Billy Gunn wasn't that bad", then he'd get the uber pop upon his return, and in his first match, he'd remind everyone of how much he sucked. Lather, rinse, repeat for the better part of five years.
ReplyDeleteHmmm... (from the Torch, regarding tomorrow's Raw taping)
ReplyDelete"Raw (Long Island, N.Y.): Raw continues to Zack Ryder's homebase with an advertised main event of John Cena vs. Dolph Ziggler (w/A.J. Lee and Big E. Langston). Plus, the New Age Outlaws are scheduled."
I think we've found The Shield's next targets.
The crazy thing about Billy Gunn is his nickname was Badd Ass yet everything about the character focused way too much on the "Ass" part. Never understood that part.
ReplyDeleteSo Dolph Ziggler, then? ;)
ReplyDelete(NB: Yes, Ziggler grew into the role... but he got a longer sustained push. Gunn never got a long-term singles push. Besides, what's wrong with overselling?)
Yeah, the WWF was really quick to jump on the South Park bandwagon during the first couple seasons- I think it looks dated now because while the show has been on for forever, and it's often very good still, it was only REALLY popular when it first came out, and certainly most of the merch was sold back then.
ReplyDeleteI thought it was generally accepted that he had the "Benoit Test" to see if he was capable of having a good match, and when he fucked it up, they finally axed his push. Similar to how they had the "Waltman Test" with X-Pac: if you can't have a good match with 90s X-Pac, you couldn't have a good match PERIOD.
ReplyDeleteWWE has a lot of tag teams, however they don't have an over jobber team, like Kaientai, Killer Bees, etc. Putting NAO out there in short matches against guys like PTP & 3MB then having them lose to them, would do a lot of good.
ReplyDeletex-pac brought workrate and a second wave of cool after hbk left.
ReplyDeletecuz hhh wasnt cool yet and still in zany sidekick mode
you beat me by 6 hours... dammit
ReplyDeleteIt was also pretty huge at that time that a WCW wrestler was actually jumping ship to the WWF.. which at the time felt like a sinking ship. That promo he cut on the WCW was one of the turning points in the Monday Night Wars and was a crack in the ice of WCW's dominance. X-Pac had that Brian Pillman "loose cannon" vibe and fans wanted to see what he'd do next. The best days of DX were right after he joined and they started to make fun of the other wrestlers and the "Invasion" scenes...
ReplyDeleteI don't like that. I believe that NAO can get over again with the crowd. So why have them lose to lesser known teams?
ReplyDeleteWhy do people care about wins and losses on a house show?
ReplyDeleteI am in the same camp with you.
ReplyDeleteI wont shit on your opinion but i dont think the best DX was then because it wasnt edgy by then.
ReplyDeleteThe edgy stuff was the HBK 97 stuff. By 98 the HHH led stuff was all used to get HHH over to the main event.
Why the dislike for Billy Gunn? Was he a bad person outside the ring? Honest questions on my part.
ReplyDeletethought he brought more to the table than he did... tore hhh/hbk a new ass on the shoot but then once tna dried up started recanting how they were on drugs and shit but other than that no.
ReplyDeleteNothing really wrong.... It was more Billy being sloppy that killed his pushes plus injuries. His match with Benoit at Armageddon 2000 was billy in a nutshell
ReplyDeleteThat makes sense... Looking back at Austin's run there were missed opportunities to make stars. He really didnt have that many foes and he put the kabosh on a few programs that would of been fresh (not to mention walking about prior to his match with Eddie)
ReplyDeleteThat wouldn't be bad at all. He's great on Are You Serious
ReplyDeleteI think that is correct
ReplyDeleteI'm a fan of the Pre-Waltman DX as well, but I know for me, their (Waltman era DX) antics made me flip the channel to WCW less than before. Less edgy.. but I'll be damned if them showing up at WCW headquarters wasn't great TV!! For a company that rarely acknowledged their competition, it was ballsy and made the WWF seem the place where anything could legitimately happen. That's all I'm sayin'..
ReplyDeleteYou obviously never saw his post-WM14 promo, which was a crucial moment in the reshaping of DX and by extension, the Attitude Era to a fairly decent extent. He was a notable name who defected (yeah, he was fired) from WCW/nWo. And in 98-99, he was the best worker in the group until HHH made the leap. He got a legit *** match out of Shane, for fuck's sake. And at that time he was very over. Saying X-Pac brought nothing sounds like the words of someone who isn't old enough to remember the late 90's and thinks that's the correct smarky thing to say because they've heard people use the term "X-Pac heat," which wasn't a thing until 2001 or so. In 1998 and 1999, Pac was very over, still a borderline great worker and a vital part of DX.
ReplyDeleteStill not true.
ReplyDeleteThere are very few, if any, wrestlers that made me want to turn the channel as much as Billy Gunn. Even moreso in his The One phase.
ReplyDeleteBut unlike Rock and Brock, they're not revelant anymore. NAO's last big run in WWE was 12 years ago...that pretty much makes them forgotten by anyone still in high school.
ReplyDeleteBringing them back now would require reintroducing them...just to job them out? Not worth it.
Good point, I can understand Punk/Austin etc, just not NAO.
ReplyDeleteHe brought the bronco buster, which was then usurped by any number of Divas, and everyone here has at least one person who they want to hit them with that move.
ReplyDeleteI am a fellow Moveset adjuster... What did you alter for the outlaws?
ReplyDeleteI will give you that. I thought The One was lame as well.
ReplyDeleteI thought Gunn was pretty athletic. But he was never given that BIG push. Aside from that one big match up with The Rock at a summerslam ppv, he was never fairly given a push to the main event.
ReplyDeleteI remember the first reveal being "He had blond hair!" and I thought WWE was going to drag it out into a game of Guess Who? where they revealed a physical characteristic every week. Which would have been great.
ReplyDeleteOut of sheer habit, the writers will split the Outlaws up after 2 weeks and have them blow off their feud at WrestleMania.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, in what world did somebody think, "Mr. Ass would be a great name for a main event wrestler!"
ReplyDeleteAnd then out of sheer nostalgia, the writers will put them in a separate singles matches for the US and IC titles a week before WM.
ReplyDeleteIn hindsight, Austin was alot smarter than people realized, didn't he also refuse to work with Jarrett?
ReplyDeleteYeah, after that money promo, all he seemed to do was yell things like "Let's get jiggy with it" and "Let's make some noise".
ReplyDeleteAgreed. I actually like him now.
ReplyDelete