Just to add my 2.2 cents to the RAW ratings discussion, I don't think there's any panic over the number, or serious credence to the idea of it meaning anything, but it IS troubling in the bigger picture. It's been a long time since RAW has done anything even close to that low, and that's counting a lot of holiday shows and pre-taped borefests, and I think it speaks to the bigger problem of people just getting out of the habit of watching the show. The three hours is killing the product, and given what creatures of habit that wrestling fans are, it's dangerous to train them not to watch something anymore. Yeah, it's not a big deal this time, but that also means that you now have to rebuild that audience yet again, and the hole is getting deeper and deeper every time they find a new bottom number. Just look what happened to The Ultimate Fighter this year. Before this year, anything less than a 3.0 was heads rolling; now they throw Vince on TV for extended periods of time and get a 2.9 and it's cause for celebration.
By the way, for those asking, the last time the shows fell on the 24th/31st was 2007, and the rating dropped from 3.5 the week before to 2.5 on the 24th and then 2.6 on the 31st, then bounced back up to 3.2 in the new year.
Yeah as an individual rating, it's not a big deal I'm sure. As Scott says though -- people take a week off and don't feel like they missed much, so maybe they don't come back next week. That's basically what's been happening with RAW the last few years though -- week after week, month after month the ratings just keep trending downwards when you look at the averages over long periods of time.
ReplyDeleteThe buy-rates are up a bit though this year over last year, so that must certainly be encouraging.
I think what's often lost in all of these ratings stories is the fact that the cable TV pie is divided into thinner slices, now that we have thousands more channels and far more specialized programming than, say, a decade ago.
ReplyDeleteA 2.2 for a Christmas show is suitably shitty, but I wish there was a way we could equate that to what it would have been with the same audience in 1999. It may not be more than a 2.6 (theoretically speaking), just like maybe a modern 2.8 is a 3.3 or 3.4 in "1999 numbers".
Come to think of it, is there an accurate way to equate/convert what a modern cable rating would have been in an ancient year?
Its not really that different. A rating point equaled about 900k homes.in 1999 and its about 1.1 million now.
ReplyDeleteIts easier to think about viewers. Raw was averaging like 7 or 8 million per week in 1999. They were around 6 in 2005-07. Now they are around 4 million.
The "you cant compare ratings" meme is bullshit that I think the WWE started pushing in 2003 when the ratings fell off a cliff.
I don't agree completely -- if anything I think that argument is overplayed. The argument seems to be that 'things are the same all the time / not as bad as they seem, because the numbers are just reflecting the expanding audience and specialized programming'.
ReplyDeleteit's not just the fact that the numbers themselves are lower than in 1999 or 2006, it's the fact that the numbers are dropping, month to month, year to year at a rate faster than the options and the cable audience is expanding.
Oh, I'm not denying that WWE's tune-in audience has dropped off drastically. I was just more curious what the playing field was if it evened out.
ReplyDeleteThen again, ratings never really bothered me. American Idol does big ratings, and I can't bring myself to watch it. Comedy Central aired a show a decade ago called Gerhard Reinke's Wanderlust, and about 20 people watched it. I thought it was hilarious.
I think the only purpose they serve now is just for displeased fans to rub it in that they're not necessarily in the minority when they say the show sucks.
It's going to be bad again for the next two weeks with New Year's Eve and a college football national championship that I've heard could rival the Super Bowl in numbers.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing that doesn't help them is how good they've gotten at recaps. If I don't watch Raw, I can catch Smackdown or even the next Raw and have everything summed up for me at least five times. Or I could go to WWE.com or use the WWE app, whichever they're shoving down our throats, out of our stomachs and back into our throats that week, and catch up on everything. Combine that with a watered down show because of the time, and why bother watching Raw at all anymore?
I agree that a lot of people use them in that regard, which is fine I suppose, although it does annoy some people. Not everyone has that intention though -- for some people (okay, nerds) the business side of things is just as interesting to follow as the on-screen product.
ReplyDeleteI think I need to see getting the app demonstrated another 3-4 times, really slowly. If they could do it with people twice my age, acting as if aliens dropped off their phones to them just before the show, and presenting it like I have some type of Momento-type brain injury, the more the better.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking general picture here:
ReplyDeleteI became privy to the Internet in 01. Ratings went right over a cliff post X-7 but climbed back with hhh , rock and the now coming back. They dipped again, and prior to the wrestlemania 19 conference Vince said "don't worry, we'll have our 2000 numbers back by the time we get to Seattle"
Well, excluding a bump for the weeks right before that mania (STACKED shows featuring the first rock concert and a returning Austin), Vince has not gotten those numbers back. That was TEN YEARS AGO.
Yeah 2003 was the tipping point for the company, WrestleMania XIX did a surprisingly low number too.
ReplyDeleteRaw could also use a set redesign. It looks basically the same since 2002.
ReplyDeleteHow do they factor in the TiVo recordings or On Demand downloads into ratings?
ReplyDelete1997, really. Dark arena, Titan-tron, metal stage and ramp. Commentators at ringside. That was an exciting new look in 1997. What's changed since then?
ReplyDeleteI saw some numbers on this on tvbythenumbers. Raw doesn't even register in a list they put together of top 50 shows watched on tivo/dvr. You have to watch the show withing 48 or 72 hours from the original air date to count.
ReplyDeleteDammit if I didnt just say this.
ReplyDeleteI'll be honest, I take it as proof that it's not just "annoying internet fans" who think the show sucks...
ReplyDeleteYup, I believe that is the case.
ReplyDeleteAlso it should be mentioned that DVR ratings are included in three different sets of ratings -- one set that includes only same day / overnight playback, another that tracks views within 72 hours, and one that tracks views if they occur within seven days of the air date. I don't think the differences between the latter two are particularly notable and typically the higest rated shows on TV do the best DVR ratings as you'd expect.
Isn't TUF drawing less than a million on FX? Now THAT'S a fucking freefall. Like WWE, that used to be appointment TV, but between putting the focus on the coachesand having really shitty crops of contestants (or boring ones like the season where Roy Nelson won by sitting his fat ass on everyone), it lost me and it doesn't have something like team hell no to keep my interest piqued
ReplyDeleteThey need to DESPERATELY game change things. DESPERATELY.
ReplyDeleteTurn Cena heel/Punk face and stop the bleeding with that garbage (one of the main reasons why the company has been on a downward spiral these last couple of months and why people are willing to ditch the show after the move to three hours). Let Punk beat Rock and then Undertaker at WM to make up for the shitty heel turn that killed his momentum and make Cena lose in eight-ten seconds to Dean Ambrose, to establish Amrbose as the next fucking big thing and to symbolize that the Cena era is over, destroyed in humiliating fashion with the quickness of his defeating becoming a running gag much in the same way that Danial Bryan's defeat was last year.
Pull the trigger on Ziggler at long last and let him be top guy on Smackdown and have a him and Danial Bryan fight it out, culminating in Bryan winning the belt at WM. Push Cody Rhodes, who like Punk, got over HUGE on SD when left to his own devices but now is nothing more than a prop for the God-awful uninteresting Sandow. Do something with Zach Ryder; put him and Miz together if we have to deal with Miz and push them as a top tag team. Have Rock wrestle Shemus, beating him and FINALLY restoring Sheamus to his original "Take No Shit" asskicker.
In other words, change shit up and change shit up big time....
Cant really disagree with anything he just said. Then again, lots of Wiskey, lots of grass tonight.
ReplyDeleteIt's pretty simple for me.
ReplyDeleteI don't like John Cena. I never did. Even in 2005 when I was 22, I didn't understand the appeal of a guy who spouted out lame catchphrases while wearing jean shorts, t-shirts down to his knees and acting like he was the most popular dickhead at the frat party. But I tolerated him because there were a lot of guys I did like. But a lot of those guys are gone. Actually, I think they all are. And anytime someone knew catches my attention, I know not to get too caught up in it because WWE is the John Cena show and that's just how it's going to be. He might not have the title but he's the focus of the show and they actively try to prevent others from taking his place. Cena/Punk was similar to Austin/Hart, only instead of recognizing that the guy they want to be the face isn't and the guy they want to be the heel is popular and changing course, they just tell us to shut up and go about trying to make us like what we don't like and hate what we like because it's what they want. I could rant about this topic all day but at this point I just don't care. There's guys I like but I'm not sitting through a 3 hour show about John Cena to see them, and it pisses me off to no end that the only guy they've been willing to push as anything close to Cena is Sheamus, a guy who nobody was dying to give a fuck about before he made friends with the right people. The show is boring, it's predictable, it doesn't make sense, it tries to make you give a shit about something then contradicts it two months later, I don't care for the people I'm supposed to care about, and how they've handled Punk was basically a personalized memo to tell me they don't give a fuck what I like.
So that's why I don't watch. Numbers are suggesting I'm not the only one.
Before I read the answers below - tivo and On Demand are fine and all, but Raw used to be something people waited all week for and watched live as it was happening. Just saying "meh, I'll tivo it and maybe I'll watch it tomorrow" suggests people aren't as into it as they used to be.
ReplyDeleteAnd to add to my own post - they did something similar in 2002 - 2005 when they decided Triple H was the star and that's just how it was going to be. They can come up with all the excuses they want to but they had guys like RVD or Jericho who were getting great crowd reactions and the fans just organically liked but they refused to give them any serious push and just used them as off month contenders while Triple H was the focus of the show until they decided to push one of his buddies, until that failed and they pushed another one of his buddies.
ReplyDeleteYou really are Scott Hall!
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with this and have pointed it out in some of my reviews. RAW had several different sets between 1995-1997. We really haven't gotten a significant redesign since then. Part of the reason Old School Raw was entertaining is that it just LOOKED different with no ramp, split screen promos, different colored ropes, different turnbuckles, etc.
ReplyDeleteWish I had some grass... shit's dry 'round here right now.
ReplyDeleteI think the last season i watched was the Brock/JDS season. The move to Friday nights on FX killed it for me. Hopefully Sonnen can save it.
ReplyDeleteI still purpose the question...
ReplyDeleteTriple H from 2004 and Dusty Rhodes from 1988 are in the same company.
What happens?
I think the biggest problem is that the reason Raw is no longer "appointment TV" is because there's no main draw that makes you feel like you can't miss an episode. I know that sounds obvious but it's the truth.
ReplyDeleteWhen Nitro was must-watch, it was because everyone wanted to see what the nWo was going to do next. Same with Raw in that it was must-watch because everyone wanted to see what Austin was going to do next. You knew it was going to be something big/awesome and you didn't want to feel left out when discussing it the following day with others or simply because it's always better to see it live than to watch it after the fact, especially once you've heard what has already happened.
The same premise also applies for regular TV Shows. Stuff like The Walking Dead, Homeland, 24 back in the day, are (were) all appointment TV because you wanted to see what was going to happen next. Since 2001, there really hasn't been many angles/wrestlers that have made you feel that way. For me personally, I can really only think of the initial Nexus Invasion and now the SHIELD angle. But everything is now so cookie-cutter that if you miss an episode, it's really no big deal because there's nothing special happening. And like has already been mentioned, the recap videos are so well done that if you miss an episode, you legitimately don't feel like you missed anything significant because of the video packages.
There's just no sense of urgency to the shows and there's no larger meaning. Nothing ever really builds to anything. PPV's have become so meaningless, not just because of the amount of them in a year, but also because of how they often have matches on Raw that used to be strictly reserved for PPV. Outside of the fact that the PPV matches are longer, there's not a significant difference between your run of the mill Raw card and a PPV card. That's also aided in people getting so burned out from the different talent... they're on-air so much that it's hard to not get overexposed. And that's not even counting how the titles are little more than props nowadays.
There's plenty of problems with the show but the lack of a clear draw/reason to tune in is probably the biggest.
Sorry, but Dean will never be the "next fucking big thing", he's simply not big enough. In order for someone to beat Cena like that, and be perceived as a monster, they need a look like Sid, Lesnar, Hogan, Superstar, Show. Or at the least, have the look & attitude of Stone Cold. Because if Cena is bigger than whomever, how could we really think the guy is gonna crush him in 10 seconds? Unless they're former UFC dudes, with a legit rep of having a monster punch or something....
ReplyDeleteAt Survivor Series 2011, CM Punk [I think] sold 16% of the merch that night, Rock was about 30%, and Cena sold all the rest. And he was booed like crazy that night.
Cena as a face makes too much money. And wrestling, like everything else...well, let me quote Ace...
"This is the end result of all the bright lights, and the comp trips, and
all the champagne, and free hotel suites, and all the broads and all
the booze. It's all been arranged just for us to get *your money*."
To further your point, who had been the most over guy over the course of the last 6th months? Or at least who's gotten the biggest crowd reactions? Daniel Bryan. Andeveryone keeps expecting those reactions to die out and yet it seems they keep getting stronger.And does this company run with it and see where it goes? Nope. Instead they just make him a mid-card comedy act. One that loses every time he fights ones of their "main event" guys.
ReplyDeleteAnd who do they decide to push instead? A muscle freak that is barely over who gets mocked by the crowd half the time and called someone else's name. It's that what the people wanted? Clearly not. But Ryback gives Vince a woody so there ya go.
Thats why I cant watch this shit anymore.
That sucks. Move to cali dude. You can buy it in a store
ReplyDeleteOr...... ALL of Canada babehhhh!!
ReplyDeleteI think The Shield could be that draw. They feel special, they feel new... you don't know what will happen next... they go over in matches...they can talk... they can wrestle... the last time a heel group was so interesting was the original DX.
ReplyDeletePurpose?
ReplyDeleteBasically the same thing happening right now?
ReplyDeleteSo you're saying they'll be jobbing to 3MB by Easter?
ReplyDelete1st point: Where do those merchandise percentages come from? No one else sold merchandise? No Rey masks? No HHH shirts? Or Bryan? Or Orton? Sounds like the kind of numbers some site pulls out of their ass with no actual data.
ReplyDelete2nd point: I don't buy the "he's not big enough" thing anymore. 10 years ago, ok. but Punk is Cena's biggest challenge and he's not big.
3rd point: Self-fulfilling prophecy. You push one guy so much harder than everyone else, then of course they sell more merchandise. The true test is having numbers folks who can figure out how many fans might watch if cena was a heel, pushed less, gone completely, etc. and how much merchandise others might sell to fill the void if cena's numbers go down. Then you make a decision. For all the fear of losing t-shirt sales if Cena isn't pushed like crazy as a superhero, I simply wonder how many fans might come back if he wasn't and I certainly believe that fans will buy other merchandise for the next guy WWE pushes.
100% agree. I fell away from the product because Cena and Orton didn't appeal to me and they replaced guys who did. I didn't mind Batista. Not a big fan of JBL or King Booker. There became a tipping point where there simply wasn't enough guys like Edge that I enjoyed to offset the guys I didn't.
ReplyDeletea quick look at the ratings from the past shows that a combination of the end of the Monday night wars (I hold the competition aspect attracted a lot of fans and excitement), the HHH push of 02 and Hogan's face return can be blamed for a huge ratings drop. Numbers plummeted between April 2001 and summer 2002, never to come even close to the previous ratings.
ReplyDeleteAnd we have a winner! exactly what MY tipping point was wasn't there being less guys I like, it's almost all the guys I like being treated like second rate wrestlers
ReplyDeleteThe size thing is such a cop out, if he is over people buy him as a bad ass, Benoit was small, he was also perceived as one of the Toughest motherfuckers on the roster
ReplyDeleteNo thanks, I'm just not a west coast kind of guy. I'm thinking of moving to Colorado though. I'm already a huge Avalanche fan, so I shouldn't have trouble fitting in.
ReplyDeleteEXACTLY. And now they want to push Orton and Miz, who are 2 of the 3 current wrestlers I hate the most. Fuck that noise...
ReplyDeleteNow they will put Cena on next week and say, "See, he made the ratings spike!"
ReplyDeleteHe can make just as much as a heel. I mean, those nWo shirts and Austin 3:16 shirts weren't face merchandise.
ReplyDeletei dont understand.
ReplyDeleteTUF basically fucked up every possible way they could.
ReplyDelete1) This season SUCKED. No way around it, every single fight except the very last one was awful.
2) All the contestants SUCKED. The guy who won probably won't win a single fight in the UFC. The 2nd place guy has potential but was criminally undersized. Other than those two nobody wants to see any of those guys again.
3) They put it on Friday night which is guaranteed to lower ratings.
4) Fox/FX aren't promoting the show or the UFC at all despite shelling out a pile of money for the product. Give them 1 30 second spot during football or even 1 30 second spot during FX's movie of the week and this could have changed.
TUF at it's peak was doing ~2.0 cable Nielsen ratings so they lost about half their audience from peak (which wasn't going to last). But this season was basically the perfect storm of failure.
Regarding your third point, I don't think that's true. Zack Ryder, who is treated like the biggest loser in the company, is a big merchandise seller as well. And the Hurricane, who was never treated like a threat, was also a big seller.
ReplyDeleteAnd by the same token, you don't hear about Sheamus' merchandise flying off the shelves. Ditto for Ryback. And Big Show. And those guys are pushed very hard as well.
This is a big reason why I hate their universal HD set. Every single show uses it, so it just makes everything look so bland. I much prefer the days that each show had its own set and its own identity.
ReplyDelete