http://www.wwe.com/classics/phantom-title-changes-26076117
This is a pretty fun article from WWE.com, especially the one about the Brazil tournaments. For completeness they probably could have thrown the Freebirds' negative title reign in there, but it's pretty great as is.
I didn't know Dusty actually held the title for "weeks" before the title was given back to Flair.
ReplyDeleteI'm still confused by the whole negative title reign.
I think this is the first I've heard of the R&R Express vs Manny/Rude change being doctored.
ReplyDeleteRaise your hand if the 1st thing you checked for was the Rockers/Hart Foundation.
ReplyDeleteI believe that footage of them losing the titles was shot (to be aired on Worldwide or whatever much later on) before they actually won them on a live Clash or PPV.
ReplyDeleteSay what you want about WWE's on-screen product, but they have one HELL of a great website.
ReplyDeleteDo you mean the concept of a negative title reign? The idea is that you lose a title before you win it.
ReplyDeleteCorrect me if I'm wrong anywhere, but I believe that footage of the Freebirds losing the (US?) titles was taped at some point (does this mean that at some point they were suddenly just announced as champs?), except they hadn't actually won the belts yet "in real time."
Say the taping was for the an ep that would air at the end of June. However, the taping itself was in March, when some other team was champs in real time. That team would defend the belts till a live Clash or something, even though there was footage of the Freebirds as champs in the can. Then at the live Clash, the Freebirds would beat that team for the belts, where real time would sync up with whatever was on tape. Then they'd defend the belts at house shows while all the footage of them as champs would air. Then as soon as the one ep where they lost the belts aired, they'd stop defending the belts since the other team was now champs. In real time, they lost the belts before they ever won them, even though things made sense in TV/broadcast time.
Isn't this what got WCW into trouble with the Hollywood Blondes? They were taped without the belts, but before they actually lost them, one of them got injured, so they had to sub Regal in at a Clash or something to make sure the title switch happened.
I thought I heard that from Mike McAdam years ago.
ReplyDeleteSee, this is the kind of stuff that should be on Did You Know? on telecasts (or bring back THIS WEEK IN WWE HISTORY) instead of circle-jerking to finishing 10 million viewers behind MNF.
ReplyDeleteYeah, they already had footage of Arn and Paul Roma (I think) as champs taped before they actually won the belts, then Pillman got hurt and they had to have Austin and Regal together at the Clash. What's really funny about that one is that the Blondes and Arn/Roma had a match on PPV a couple weeks before that where you'd think the title change would have happened, but WCW decided to get cute and fuck with the internet and have the Blondes retain, and shorty after that is when Pillman got injured.
ReplyDeleteI think there was some sort of convoluted situation like that with Bunkhouse Buck and Dick Slater, but I don't remember the details. A little help, Scott?
Similar to the Freebirds but not as convoluted. In fact, Buck and Slater never actually won the belts from Harlem Heat in the first place, and they just kind of made up the title change and then did another title change on TV to put them back on the Heat. I don't remember the reasoning behind it.
ReplyDeleteJust checking into it further and I think it was actually closer to the RNR/Rude & Fernandez deal, where they took a match taped for WCWSN where Buck & Slater beat the Heat in a non-title match and then retroactively declared it a title change for some reason, and then Heat got it back at Fall Brawl 95. Basically they never legitimately beat the Heat in a title match.
ReplyDeleteI've been saying that for years, and some people have actually argued that they were at the fictitious house show where the title change occurred. It was a strange argument.
ReplyDeleteOne title change that for the longest time I'd seen referred to as a phantom title change was Sting and Vader trading the title in Germany in early '93. However, watching the Worldwide's they've had on 24/7 recently, the title change is quite readily acknowledged.
ReplyDeleteWasn't there a Flair/Race switch in New Zealand or something that's been moved closer to being acknowledged than not?
All of the "local hero wins the NWA title" switches (outside of the continental US) make sense since promoters didn't want their fans rioting if the local hero lost. I think there's a bunch of people in Puerto Rico and Australia who can claim to be NWA champ.
And since I brought up NWA Australia, I just have to say, "My booooyyyyyy." Kudos if you get why the reference is germane. :)
Hmm, apparently some fella named "Terry Boulder" won the NWA title in '79 and even was briefly acknowledged as such on TV.
ReplyDeleteAw well. Whatcha gonna do, ya know?
I've patented a "Do I Care?" response for every "Did You Know?" clip that WWE uses.
ReplyDeleteApparently Marty Jannetty voted my comment down.
ReplyDeleteHe's the Marty Jannetty of the team, ya know.
There's also the fictitious Psychosis Cruiserweight Title change where they claimed he defeated current champ Lenny Lane at a weekend house show when he was actually awarded the title (and then lost it to Disco Inferno the same night) after Lane was taken off television due to protests from the Gay and Lesbian Alliance.
ReplyDeleteI doubt the people involved know the reason, other than "just for shits and giggles". That wacky WCW... Thanks for the info.
ReplyDeleteHe never went on to amount to much of anything.
ReplyDeleteHis nephew was in the nWo B-team and the Flock though.
ReplyDeleteVader and Sting also traded the title in Ireland I think.
ReplyDeleteI'm downvoting only because this reminds me of those asinine youtube "thumbs up if *insert retarded statement here*" comments.
ReplyDeleteI nominate jobber123's title as top commentator as a phantom title change. Who'd he ever beat?
ReplyDeleteHe-who-shall-not-be-named had a phantom reign as well.
ReplyDeleteAm I the only one that finds it nearly impossible to read?
ReplyDeleteTheir habit of stretching articles across multiple pages is incredibly annoying and I tend to find myself giving up around the 3rd or 4th time I've had to click next
...and here I was thinking the article would show Phantasio with an IC reign.
ReplyDeleteHis brother was a barber for some pretty important wrestlers.
ReplyDeleteShane Douglas?
ReplyDeleteHahahahaha....at the end of the article, under "Articles you may also like", it lists "Kelly Kelly released from the WWE." Why yes, WWE, I do like that article, very, very much.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I liked regarding Kelly Kelly was CM Punk calling her hitting a "Thesz Thesz press" when he was commentating on NXT.
My god. I rjust e-watched the April 17, 2000 Jericho v. HHH match where he the title in 2000. Great characters. Great story telling. Great wrestling. Great crowds. And only 1 World title, and boy did it really MATTER back then. I'd give up a finger or two to have those days back. We were so spoiled back then.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that is a really good match. The crowd just loses it for the title change....I can barely remember those days, so I can't rightly say they should have kept it on Jericho, although maybe he could have kept it for a week at least?
ReplyDeleteWhen did we stop talking about Bob Holly?
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't call the Freebirds change a "phantom" change, as it really happened. They just happened to lose the titles before they won them. Kind of like "short selling" in the financial world.
ReplyDeleteThey took my boy!
ReplyDeleteThe snag there was that they booked the show SO that Jericho wouldn't keep it. Indeed, they took it off him after the break. Booking on the fly to keep him champ would have been awkward.
ReplyDeleteOh, I know the point was "Have him win, take it from him in a terribly crooked fashion, moar heat on heel", and there was no way to gauge how the audience would react......just one of those "what ifs".
ReplyDelete"Both Michaels and Jannetty would go on to win the World Tag Team Titles
ReplyDeletewith different partners, but the legendary Rockers were never recognized
with the honor."
Somehow this completely slipped my mind like some odd mental block. Did the Fed just not trust their partying ways enough to put the straps on them at the same time?
I read that article looking to see if they were going to include LOD losing the tag titles to Money, Inc at "a live event in Denver". IIRC from Animal's book, this happened when Hawk got busted for steroids for the 2nd time.
ReplyDeleteGod I miss the days of being a fan and caring to remember title changes. Most of us can remember the WWF World title history from Hogan in 84 to Austin at WM 14 but after that it is just a blur.
I actually enjoyed that part of it - to gauge whether Jericho would get a
ReplyDeletesignificant reaction for winning the World Title. I kinda wish
they'd attempt it every now and then with a mid card babyface like a Kofi Kingston. I think you could argue that more people remember Jericho's fake title win more than his actual Undisputed Title win.
Technically he had three. The WCW one, and the two WWE Title wins in 2000 that Foley reversed. But obviously they won't list them.
ReplyDeleteI heard his son is quite the reckless driver, and his daughter had a failing singing career.
ReplyDeleteRIGHT OUT OF MAH HANDS!
ReplyDeleteI downvoted because that comment in turn made me think of the constant Facebook "LIKE if you remember this show!" photos.
ReplyDeleteWhat made the booking so great is that it made Jericho look good while also making HHH into a somehow bigger heel while still keeping him strong. The fast-count by Hebner was indeed iffy and nobody ever jobbed to the Lionsault. Nonetheless, the match\angle made it look like Jericho could beat HHH on any given day. Great stuff.
ReplyDeleteThe funny part is WCW was fucking with the internet fans when there were basically like 2 people on the Internet.
ReplyDeleteRe: the negative title reign.
ReplyDeleteYes, it's losing the belts before you win them. In this case, a World Tag Team title match between Doom (the champions) v. Freebirds was schedule for WrestleWar on 2/24/91. On 2/18/91, the Steiner Brothers beat the Freebirds for the World Tag Team titles. Then at the ppv, the Freebirds beat Doom to win the World Tag Team Titles. So, the Freebirds lost the belts 6 days BEFORE they won them, for a "negative six" day title reighn.
Those are the actual dates, courtesy of www.thehistoryofwwe.com/wcw91.htm
No kidding, and even at the height of net smarkdom internet people were, what, maybe 5% of the total audience? It may have been a quick "fuck you" to Meltzer. They did that every so often, like when Hulk burned a copy of the Observer on PPV.
ReplyDeleteWasn't there some screwiness with the Heat getting the belts back from the Nasties in the first place? I know it happened at an Orlando taping, and those are questionable.
ReplyDeleteI think there was some kind of deal where they had already filmed the Nastys as champs before they won the title on PPV. Not sure if that relates in any way to the Heat though.
ReplyDeleteHaving 2 world titles sure doesn't help.
ReplyDeleteIIRC, Jericho said that brass was never convinced he could be world title-material until they saw the crowd go apeshit that night for his "win"
ReplyDelete...Wait, logical booking that makes both men strong and has the audience wanting more? WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?!
ReplyDeleteNow we need an article on the history of screwjobs!
ReplyDeleteI think the classic way from times long ago was to tell the champion that it was a two of three falls match, that he would lose the first fall, but then win the next two to retain. Then keep him distracted as the ring announcer announces it as a one fall match...
I don't think that had anything to do with it. The title was supposed to change in that match because Neidhart was getting canned, then for some reason Vince changed his mind and decided to keep him and keep the titles on the Harts. It's also been said that Bret wanted the match to not be shown because he was embarrassed by it. I've seen it, and after the rope breaks it kind of falls apart, plus the Hart's (mostly Jim's) reaction to the rope breaking is rather unprofessional. But why did they never get the titles? My thinking is that the Rockers worked best as an underdog team, and you're not really the underdogs if you're the champs.
ReplyDeleteYeah, in his book he claims Vince told him 'relax, you'll get it back someday.' And he did. Just a year and a half later, when he was cast as an ineffectual heel. The saddest 'what if' ever is wondering how over Jericho would've been as champion in 2001/2002 if he was using his heel character from 2008.
ReplyDeleteNo one ever mentions my favorite part of the whole thing. Jericho goads Triple H into the match and HHH is all like "sure I got DX anyways lets go" and Jericho's all like "APA bitch!" Seriously though, I like how in order to prevent outside interference he hired the APA for the night. Wish they would have done that more often.
ReplyDeleteOr if he was given the world title in 2000 with his 2000 character. He would have been huge in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteThe WWE in 2000 was on fire, though. Jericho from that year could have headlined any other year, but even he couldn't match up to how over The Rock was. If The Rock went to Hollywood early? Jericho would've been the number one babyface, absolutely.
ReplyDeleteNot sure what you mean by the "RNR/Rude & Fernandez deal" but, looking at the actual match:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NIQTF3QdE0
Immediately after counting the pin (29:56), the referee makes the "belt around the waist" sign and gives them the title belts while raising their arms in victory, without any cut away whatsoever. So I cannot see how this match wasn't a tag title match from the start.