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Psychology or Action?

Hey Scott, long time etc etc etc etc

I was watching two matches the other day in my ongoing attempts to educate myself on Puro, and I stumbled upon some very interesting points about wrestling in general I wanted the blog to chew on while watching a pair of Joshi matches. One match featured Megumi Kudo vs Aja Kong, the other was an Explosive Barbwire match between the same Kudo and Combat Toyoda. (Links are http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiBfx9yqZUU and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW-Nwxwqps respectively)

The Kong v Kudo match was pretty entertaining, as Aja Kong is an awesome, high-caliber Vader/Samoa Joe style worker with a great skillset, blending well with the typical JOSHI FIGHTING SPIRIT~! of Kudo. However, there was some stuff in that match that bugged the hell out of me, namely a parity sequence at the start involving the wiry Kudo and the butch, dangerous-looking Kong. I thought it'd make a hell of a lot more sense to have a storyline of "Kong maims Kudo. Kudo gets brief comeback. Kong shrugs it off, resumes acting like total destructive monster heel by maiming Kudo more." would work. Then, Kudo used a series of armbars to neutralize the spinning backfist, Kong's finisher. Sound psychology, but they had Kong sell the armbars, which made no sense cause Kong, while a good seller, looks like a total monster that shouldn't feel pain from a glorified resthold. She then proceeded to do the finisher something like 6 times anyways with the bad arm for the eventual win, thus nullifying the whole point of doing the armbars.

Then, the other match came along, the Explosive Barbwire match, which was totally different despite featuring someone similar to Kong in Toyoda being Kudo's opponent. A lot of stalling was involved, and there were some rather simple spots like a test of strength, knuckle lock and irish whips where they tried to shove each other into the barbed wire in order to cause major damage to their opponent. This match, by contrast, told a really excellent story, in that both were trying to use their brain and simpler techniques to get their opponent into the Barbed wire, but the action was subpar, until they built to a hot finish leading to Toyoda kicking out of a very scary botched neck-drop powerbomb which would've left her wheelchair-bound in any other universe, then almost getting hurt again with a Vertebreaker for the pin.

I liked both matches though, which got me to thinking: Obviously, the best matches include both a quality story being told by the participants in the ring and solid, high-caliber action to build the story up. But really, which one is more important to have in a match? Is it sometimes better to have a match with jaw-dropping action but no real flow to it, or is it better to have a slow, methodical match that tells a strong story? Is less sometimes more when it comes to the point you want to convey to the audience with your booking?

Yeah, that's a toughie.  I think it comes down to knowing your audience and adjusting based on their needs, rather than doing the same thing for everyone. For me personally, sometimes I have patience to watch Randy Orton working a headlock for 15 minutes on John Cena, and sometimes I don't.  Mostly I don't.  So even by individual fans, reactions can vary wildly.  I'd like to think it's "safer" to err on the side of having a crazy action-packed match that can at least disguise weaknesses, but by the same token when something like that doesn't mesh it can go wrong FAST.  However, if you're actually trying to tell a story to the audience, it is often better to do something slower and more deliberate.  

What I'm saying is that wrestling is a very very tricky artform to master, especially with the variable of giant crowds of fickle fans sometimes changing plans that people had.  That's likely no help whatsoever, but that's what I got for you.

Comments

  1. I love psychology, but I'm not a big psychology fan if it involves extended restholds.



    That's why a match like Steamboat vs Flair from WrestleWar is just about the most perfect match for me -- lots of varied action, some unique transitional moves, a few high spots, and psychology in short bursts. They don't stop moving, not even in the restholds -- both guys are constantly trying to fight out of them, so they have to keep changing up the position they are in. It's not just sitting motionless on the mat, it actually seems like the contest is continuing, not just halted.



    Kick the leg, clip the leg, hit it with a chair, and throw on a figure four for a minute -- but don't just sit there working one leg lock the whole time.



    The one that really annoys me is where wrestler A is in a headlock forever, gets the crowd to rally for them, finally gets up and starts making a comeback, and then wrestler B reverses the move back into an extended headlock. They give you hope and then take it away!

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  2. It really just depends on the guys in the ring and what the story behind the match is. I can still watch Barry Windham, Sting and Steamboat trade headlocks and mat wrestle with Flair but if Miz was to do that with Cena I'd be bored to tears. By contrast, I can watch Steve Austin garbage brawl all day, but those Axl Rotten vs. Ian Rotten matches were instant fast forwarders for me during my tape trading days.

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  3. I agree. Guys like HHH and others like to say, "oh, make the move mean something" but it's only lip service. Back then, Steamboat grinding out a headlock or Flair just pounding on a knee or putting on a kneebar meant something b/c it would build to something else.

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  4. Exactly -- he's just laying around because he's winded. Restholds should give guys a little rest, but I imagine if you actually know how to make them interesting that it requires a ton more stamina than a lot of guys have.

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  5. Flair's match with Gorgeous Jimmy Garvin is a great example of psychology. Garvin came out like a house of fire, Flair waited him out and looked for a mistake, Garvin landed hard on a leap frog and Flair pounced. Flair didn't do anything fancy, just yanked on the guy's knee, pounded the knee, knee crushers and then figure-four for a blackout submission.

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  6. It TOTALLY depends on the performers and how much you are invested in them.


    People are invested in an HBK/HHH/Undertaker so they can have matches dripping with psychology or story based matches with a lot of stalling because you have been so invested in their characters over the years and give a lot of leeway to their matches.


    Whereas someone new to the scene, they need to make a first impression with highspothighspothighspot to get the audience to respond to them.


    But then again, with special performers that grab you with a look they have the distinct advantage of being able to blend the psychology and highspots from an early point in their career.


    So IMO i think it just depends on the character and how much you are emotionally connected to them.


    Plus it depends on your tastes as well.


    If you skew towards a technical match up you might be able to withstand 10 minutes of working the arm, rather than being a fan of garbage wrestling, you know? You would just want heatheatheatfinish.

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  7. I didnt read this post until mines was done but i agree whole-heartedly.

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  8. It's a point that's been beaten into the ground but I think the death of the territories is a big problem with people not being able to blend highspots into psychology. You used to have to captivate the same audience for weeks so you had to bust out big moves but also work in some nuances to make people give a shit about you. That doesn't happen now.

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  9. Agreed, the guys make a big difference. It's nice to get a bit of variety -- that was one thing about late 1990s WCW that I really appreciated, as you tended to get real a mix of styles on the same show, drawing from different influences. You had some generic guys and your slugs on top, but guys like Malenko, Rey, Raven, Benoit, Goldberg and DDP all wrestled pretty dramatically different styles.

    The push towards the homogenization of styles into one basic template really hurts the shows.

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  10. The thing that I think worked it's way over from the indies to the big leagues that annoys me the most is the way guys deliberately position themselves to take the next high-spot, even when it makes no sense logically for them to do so.



    They don't want to slow down the pace of the match at all, so they immediately get up from one high spot without selling it and inexplicably race over to another part of the ring (like the corner) for no reason but to be positioned for the next high spot. It ceases to be wrestling at that point, it's a gymnastics exhibition.

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  11. Yes, I love that kind of dynamic too. You need good announcers who can pick up and sell on it to really get the story across. That's probably one of the causalities of how fast TV comes these days -- the wrestlers and the announcers can't really communicate much on the story they are trying to get across.

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  12. On the off-topic portion of the Miami message board I frequent, I've always posited that WCW was the perfect storm of a wrestling roster. You had big names (Hogan, Macho, Flair, Bret, Sting etc), you had upper midcarders that could main event in the blink of an eye (Hall, Nash, Arn, Luger), your cruiserweights and midcarders you could elevate (Raven, DDP, Benoit, Jericho, Malenko, Booker, Rey, Eddy) and other random fodder who were still completely capable of giving you a blowaway singles or tag match if you needed it. In hindsight, kinda baffles the mind that they went under until you look at the terrible upper management.

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  13. I will say -- and perhaps it's a causality of me not watching regularly over the last 7 or 8 years, but that's exactly why I found HBK/HHH/Undertaker terribly boring. Way too much laying around, not enough movement.

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  14. Yep. It just seems like guys just wanna get their moves in instead of actually working a match. Like every match you see, you know some guy is gonna swing at Cena and he's gonna get Protobombed to get the fistdropped or some guy is going to roll outside and Randy Orton is going to ddt him so he can do his stupid snake dance.

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  15. But they're not announcers anymore. They're "storytellers".

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  16. Agreed, people say Orton is a great worker, but I don't get it, all he does is MOVEZ with pretty much zero purpose or transition to all of them. Somebody popped for a move once, and so he keeps doing it over and over and over and over again to get the same reaction.

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  17. Yeah the late 1990s were an interesting time as far as that went for both the WWF and WCW. The fact that you rarely got a great main event in WCW was a huge bummer for sure and the announcers/booking were sometimes questionable, but at least you were guaranteed 2hrs+ of solid to great matches on a PPV, where the WWF would blow the doors off with an awesome (or at least heat filled, well booked) main event, but an otherwise unremarkable midcard. If WCW had ever figured out their booking with that roster, I don't think the WWF would have ever unseated them -- the WWF basically beat them at their own game with a much smaller and thinner roster at that, which is crazy to think about.

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  18. I think both styles have their merits. The crazy action-packed match is fine for what it is and a great match to watch if you're watching with your friends, who only happen to be casual fans, but I think the matches that tell a story are timeless, and those matches will never age and have more historical significance.

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  19. Yeah, I think the variety is nice. Some guys are just great at particular styles too -- the "WWF Main Event Style" worked really well for a guy like Austin because he could do it believably and it also covered up his mobility limitations. Shoving everyone into that same format though just makes everything seem so samey -- it should always be about maximizing the talents of the particular wrestler, not trying to standardize the 'feel' of your product so that people with a passing interest in it know what to expect next.

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  20. The mistake here is simple, psychology isn't just limb-working and wear downs, the psychology is the "why" behind every move, so I think this Moonsaults v. Armbars dichotomy is utter shit.


    Psychology is putting the wrestlers character into the match. John Cena using armbars is just as stupid as Greg Valentine winning with a frog splash.


    If the character of a wrestler is to win the match as efficiently and brutally as possible, a shit-storm of limbwork makes sense, but if the wrestlers character is a hot-head with no patience, I could see them switching bodyparts and strategies throughout the match. Or an arrogant wrestler who has another guy beat dead-to-rights, yet climbs the ropes anyway to deliver a quintuple corkscrew moonsault senton driver would work fine.


    That's the real thing with psychology, or hell, wrestling in general, there is no one trick or tool to fit every circumstance, you have to do the right thing for the crowd for the feud and for the match.

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  21. Maybe most important, KNOW YOUR CROWD.. That Joe/Kobashi crowd WANTED those Chops, dammit.. When Elgin hulked up on Davey that crowd went into a serious OH SHIT~! mode that elevated the match.

    Look at EVOLVE.. Excellent, superior matches getting slept on by a crowd that would rather watch a CZW death schmoz..

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  22. The thing to remember is that a lot of puroresu uses the submissions/technical stuff as a perfunctory time-filler as much as anything, and any sensation of strategy is often forgotten. People also show the trademark "FIGHTING SPIRIT" and just ignore previous damage anyways. The selling isn't all "All Japan- Everything Counts Towards the Finish" stuff- even All Japan stuff.

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  23. As much as I dislike Jeff Hardy, there's been a consistent psychology to the highspots he does in matches - he's the daredevil who has to pull off the crazy shit for the fans. What great is that it often causes him to lose more often than win.

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  24. Also in Japan its strong style, meaning they will hit a finisher 3 minutes into the match and it means nothing... (in the US thats finisher death) but then hitting the same finisher 6 times makes sense in their style.

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  25. Totally agree, i was using the limb working part of wrestling psych that people identify with the most.

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  26. What I'm saying is that wrestling is a very very tricky artform to
    master, especially with the variable of giant crowds of fickle fans
    sometimes changing plans that people had.


    Right here is why the best wrestlers can call things on the fly in the ring (Chris Jericho was a MASTER at that) you need to adjust based on the crowd, if they are nuclear for headlocks, then do so more god damn headlocks, if they are dead silent, the it's high spot time for sure. The trick is making these changes while STILL telling a cohesive story

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  27. But still, psychology is 'the story' of the match. So if anything, this should be even simpler for even the likes of Cole.

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  28. totally agree. there's a huge difference between "working the leg with one hold that is applied for five minutes" or "working the leg with several holds, all while the opponents tries to find ways to avoid further damage".

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  29. Psychology should really referred to as the logic of the match. That means that wrestlers should act consistent with their characters during the match as well as that the actions of the wrestlers during the match make sense within the context of the logic of pro wrestling. It's basically about structuring the match to allow the audience to believe, even if for a second that it is real.

    Bad psychology is not working on the head, and then the leg, before a back finish. Bad psychology is when something happens in the match to make you say to yourself "that doesn't make sense" or "bullshit". The skin the cat spot, as its normally done is bad psychology, as why would the guy who throws his opponent away turn away? That's why I prefer Bret to Shawn, when Bret took a front turnbuckle, it looked good and brought you into the match, whereas Shawn would do that Flair flip which is not believable.

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  30. When the heel throws the face out of the ring, he wants to gloat about it and taunt the crowd. The leaves the face to skin the cat.

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  31. I'm not sure if this falls in the realm of psychology per se, but I really hate when two guys do the double KO spot like four minutes into a match. I mean two guys knocking each other out with a double clothesline 15 minutes in makes sense. But when it occurs four minutes in, it's just a lazy way to advance the match.

    Also, on the topic of individual crowds throwing a wrench into things: I totally agree. Several years ago, I was at a WCW show (Okay, it's been more than several years.). Eddy Guerrero was wrestling, I think Chris Jericho. The crowd was dead, and even started a pretty audible "boring" chant. To me, when that happens, the wrestlers should be smart and professional enough to try something else, particularly in a situation where they aren't trying to get over any certain angle, where changing the match's pace would be illogical.

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  32. Exactly. I take psychology in wrestling to mean wrestling a match as if it's real. Going into the match knowing the story, knowing your opponent and working it as if you're really trying to wear him down and win a wrestling match. Work over a body part to wear him down. Go back to that weakened body part later if you're desperate. If you've had your knee beat up for 10 minutes, work the rest of the match as if you're knee is giving you problems. Even character motivation - if you're walking to the ring to face a guy on pay per view who's beat the shit out of you every week for a month and slapped your wife across the face, be angry and beat the shit out of this person when you get the chance to legally do it - don't work the same match you work with everyone and try to get your revenge with a flashy move that doesn't actually hurt the guy all that much.



    You hear people say all the time that the new guys need to learn psychology but it seems pretty simple to me - base what you do in the ring off the idea that this is real. What would you really do in each situation?

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  33. I enjoyed the HBK/Undertaker matches, but that had more to do with 20 years of establishing who these guys are and while I should care. I remember the second match better than the first but I recall that being a bit of nothing before they just started hitting high spots for the rest of the match until like the third Tombstone ended it. Fun, enjoyable match but if this comparison makes sense - it didn't feel like a back and fourth basketball game, it felt like a free throw competition that went into someone missed.

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  34. So, a couple of things...I've not watched much Japanese wrestling (mostly laziness), and I'm not a huge fan of the FMW craziness. That being said, the Kudo/Toyoda match was awesome. The teasing of hitting the barbed wire at the beginning and the various things each of them were doing was great. I'm not sure how Toyoda isn't crippled though after the crazy powerbomb/vertabreaker at the end. I actually winced when I saw the powerbomb b/c I thought she might be dead. While I thought the match was cool, I couldn't watch a ton of that style...even though the barbed wire/explosions didn't really play into the match a ton...I get a little uncomfortable watching the wrestlers get cut up by the barbed wire, etc.

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  35. Yeah that isn't what "strong style" means at all.

    Strong style is basically just a catch-all term for what New Japan trains its students. In short, it's a style with an emphasis on martial arts strikes and MMA submissions. It has absolutely nothing to do "hitting a finisher 3 minutes into the match" (what the fuck?).

    Conversely, All Japan during its heyday used to use a style called King's Road, which was basically imported old school southern NWA with a heavier emphasis on building to a massive finish.

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  36. i was always told that and from the puro matches ive seen i always see them hitting their finish very early into the match.


    but now i know. thank you.

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  37. that is all the WWE guys now. They lack both the psychology to sell and the psychology to let the guy have time TO sell. I also take issue with calling what UT/HBK do really great psychology. It was exciting stuff, but it was more "lay around to sell big move, get up and take next big move." True psychology, to me, is about selling a body part the entire match and incorporating what occurred into later parts of the match. One guy takes a huge bump to the shoulder. Later he can't lift his opponent for his signature move. His opponent takes advantage for the rollup. Just an example but a guy like Bret was the best at that. He made the selling of things matter for the entire match and he made what he did offensively matter later on as well. Now they grimace, roll around, then forget what part of the body is supposed to be hurt as they gear up for the next impact move.

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  38. There is still a strong tendency towards treating finishers as basically a "big damn move" that isn't instant death (which makes a bit more sense than over here, where a finisher is unrealistically more powerful than every other bit of offense). All Japan is a bit different, but even they go through an "Arms Race" over their big finishes that devalues their prior finishers, leading up to the death of Misawa.

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  39. In New Japan? They don't spam their finishers at all. You might see a kickout or two in their main events, but that's hardly worse than the stuff you see over here. That five star Tanahashi/Suzuki match, for example, is famous for having NO finishers and NO pinfall attempts until the very end.


    The worst finisher spammer in the business is Kurt Angle. He practically hits the ankle lock at the opening bell.

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  40. I've seen that done in the WWE. I remember a match where Hogan hit the Honkey-Tonk Man with the big boot and as Hogan ran the ropes HTM turned himself while laying on the mat so he would be in position to take the leg drop.

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  41. That is the problem I have with TV matches. Unless it's a squash or fluke roll-up/caught by surprise situation there should be no reason for a match to be less than five minutes. There is no way to conceivably tell a proper story in that time.


    That is one of the reasons Flairs matches on WWE TV sucked. He structures his matches to be a minimum 10 minutes long and it looks stupid when you cram it into a 5 minute match. (Not to mention how repetitive his matches became.)

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  42. There were tons of instances where Flair or Steamboat would work a hold for no other reason than to kill time.

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  43. I agree, his matches make sense for his character.

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  44. But he can do that facing in the direction of the person he just threw out. Especially since that's usually the hard camera side.

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  45. Bob Backlund was terribly boring often-times, so the "psychology" thing isn't always wildly entertaining. To me the best balance of psychology and 'action' was the Benoit-Angle series. They didn't just work a limb and trade pinfall reversals for a half hour. They were hard-hitting matches with tons of logical progressions throughout.

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  46. I think an important part of loving those matches is being involved in the characters. The reason the match is so awesome is because you're finally seeing these two big stars going at it, trading their biggest shots. It may not involve the most finesse but they're hitting hard. It's like watching a heavyweight MMA fight vs. a lightweight MMA fight. There's just something fun about watching two mammoths throwing haymakers.

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  47. I saw a few older NJ matches and there were TONS of finisher attempts. A lot in some Junior matches too. But I haven't watched NJPW in years.

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