Hi Scott
Was watching RVD Vs Cena from ONS II the other day and, whilst I could have lived without Edge's involvement, it really is a brilliant match.
Booked perfectly, both men (Cena especially) played their roles masterfully and it was an unforgettable moment. That RVD shot himself in the foot a few weeks later doesn't change the greatness of his title win.
And yet....
That moment only really came about because RVD hadn't had the title hotshotted onto him when he first caught fire during the Invasion.
Which poses the question - which would you have preferred? RVD gets the title in 01/02 and has a longer and proper main event run, but the ONS match never happens.
Or do we prefer what we got; RVD spends most of his WWE career bouncing around the upper-midcard but caps it with the spectacular match against Cena.
Thought it might make for an interesting discussion
Was watching RVD Vs Cena from ONS II the other day and, whilst I could have lived without Edge's involvement, it really is a brilliant match.
Booked perfectly, both men (Cena especially) played their roles masterfully and it was an unforgettable moment. That RVD shot himself in the foot a few weeks later doesn't change the greatness of his title win.
And yet....
That moment only really came about because RVD hadn't had the title hotshotted onto him when he first caught fire during the Invasion.
Which poses the question - which would you have preferred? RVD gets the title in 01/02 and has a longer and proper main event run, but the ONS match never happens.
Or do we prefer what we got; RVD spends most of his WWE career bouncing around the upper-midcard but caps it with the spectacular match against Cena.
Thought it might make for an interesting discussion
I have no great love for that ONS match so it doesn't really matter to me if it never happens. I'd say that not putting the belt on RVD in 2001 or 2002 was something that hurt him much more in the long run.
RVD wins the title in 2001 or 2002. Eventually book an injury angle, and when RVD comes back, he always comes up short for various reasons. Then he finally regains the title at ONS. Best of both worlds.
ReplyDeleteI don't think putting the belt on RVD in '01 would have diminished ONS in '06 in anyway. It was still the rebirth of ECW and the ECW mutants would have created exactly the same kind of atmosphere. In fact I dare say that if RVD had been a previous WWF Champion, they might have had the gumption to put him over straight without the involvement from Edge the e-mail writer didn't like.
ReplyDeleteI don't think he should've got it during the induction of the big gold secondary belt, as well as not bring the first guy to feud with Triple H for it. For someone to be handed a world championship should have come with a challenger pissed about it and instead we got RVD going, "Dude that'd be sweet if I won it off you dude." It needed someone like Benoit, not someone sounding like The Todd. I like RVD, but he wasn't the right guy at that time.
ReplyDeleteBtw, is it me out does the mobile site crash like crazy for everyone else?
ReplyDeleteIsn't that his TNA run so far minus getting the title back?
ReplyDeleteJust you. Works fine for me on the phone and tablet.
ReplyDeleteI don't have a strong opinion either way as to whether they should've put the title on him in 01 or 02; as insanely hot as he was in 2001, I just don't see them keeping it on him long or him having the title changing much. In 2002, I'd stopped watching Raw and have never seen any of that stuff.
ReplyDeleteThat said....I was never an ECW guy but the Cena/RVD match is probably one of my 10 favorite ever, and kind of a precursor/template setter for Cena/Punk. It's one of those matches that objectively I probably couldn't see getting any more than **** but I enjoy it more than a good number of ***** matches.
Semi-related question: did we ever get any kind of Jericho/RVD program?
ReplyDeleteA sort-of-related comment: what they hell were they thinking with that Sabu match at ONS2? We're talking about a guy who used to put himself through tables just for the fun of it, not to mention a guy that has wrestled with a shredded arm, a broken jaw, and a broken neck (not all the same match, of course). And that was just in the U.S., and we're supposed to believe that he can't continue after DDTing Misterio through a table? Come on guys, that ain't EXTREME. They should have got more time too, Sabu was in the rare mood to put on a proper match that night.
ReplyDeleteI don't even think there was a downside of hotshoting it to him, even for a couple of weeks. If the crowd takes to him, they've "made" a new main event guy. If they don't, you put it back on Austin or Angle and move back to the regularly scheduled program. All they did was cut the guy's momentum
ReplyDeleteThey didn't want to job Sabu right out of the gate because they were expecting him to help carry the new ECW and they didn't want to put the title on him either.
ReplyDeleteThey had a lot of matches together, but no serious feud to speak of.
ReplyDeleteOh, I understand that, the fact that the match ended in a draw isn't my gripe. But carrying both guys out after a tame spot like that after only 9 minutes in front of that crowd? Total bullshit, that was the match I bought that card to see, and I got ripped off. (Well, that and the Edge/Foley vs. Dreamer/Funk match, and I'd say I got my money's worth there.) It also made Rey look like even more of a pussy. He once got powerbombed onto a car and came back to win the match, he can handle a table bump that happened before the match even really got going.
ReplyDeleteI believe Jericho didn't care for RVD (or getting potatoed) and RVD says Jericho spoke out against him to the office. I can't remember whether or not Jericho has confirmed that he had those issues with RVD.
ReplyDeleteI believe Jericho didn't care for RVD (or getting potatoed) and RVD says Jericho spoke out against him to the office. I can't remember whether or not Jericho has confirmed that he had those issues with RVD.
ReplyDeleteGotta go with Scott on this one. Just heard in an interview on YouTube that RVD was beyond burned out at this point, which is partly how he slipped and got busted a few weeks later. More success earlier would have worked out much better for him in the long run (although that would have denied me the match on RAW where he lost the title to Edge, which I was at.)
ReplyDeleteOne of my most vivid RVD memories is him splitting Jericho open on RAW, so I can believe that.
ReplyDeleteyeah, I would have booked a draw aswell, but not off that bullshit
ReplyDeleteI'm okay with whatever they did with RVD. RVD is the wrestling equivalent to Vince Russo in that they need McMahon or the WWE machine to reel them in. Without McMahon, you get Bash at the Beach 2000 and you get the 100 or so RVD stall-spot-stall-spotfests.
ReplyDeleteI've said it before, but I'll say it again: I could never stand the token chain wrestling sequences that led to a stalemate and the two wrestlers posing in a stance until they got their applause in almost all of his ECW matches. Also, I couldn't stand RVD being so in love with RVD the character. I don't think I've ever disliked such a talented wrestler (and a pretty stand up guy outside the ring to boot).
I was thrilled to seem him main event No Mercy 2001. I was also thrilled to see him in the final four of Royal Rumble 2002. But he couldn't handle the title or the responsibilities that came with it. Case in point: 2006. But that's okay. Only half a dozen wrestlers in the company are ready for that.
Really should have done a time-limit draw.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I agree, though I don't see the harm in giving Rey a clean win. For one, it would have given Rey some much-needed credibility. Second, it's Sabu, he doesn't need to be protected. His drawing power is based solely on the fact that he's a fucking lunatic, no one has ever cared about his win/loss record. It would be the perfect time too feed someone to Rey.
ReplyDeleteI know this is going to come across as short, but there's really no other way I can think of but then to put it bluntly:
ReplyDeleteRVD did not have the microphone skills to be a world champion.
Sure, as a younger fan I marked hard for him. His style was unlike anything I'd ever seen before, and he was a breath of fresh air in the WWE, but looking back with some more objectivity, he was quite awful on the stick. I particularly remember his pre-match promo before he faced Flair at No Mercy 02. It's cringe-worth stuff.
Notice that none of the guys on that "potato list" Ryder put up were ECW regular during the peak of RVD's run in ECW. Funny, I don't remember people like the Dudleys or Tajiri getting busted hard way.
ReplyDeleteME TOO! Holy shit, I got the dirtiest looks from a bunch of little kids for marking out to Edge's title win.
ReplyDeleteYou really said it best in your initial rant Scott. Unlike Rock/Hogan, Cena/RVD didn't really make the crowd become a PART of the match.
ReplyDeleteJericho/RVD was scheduled to main event Rumble 2002 for about a week and then they switched it to Rock challenging because they didn't think it was a good enough main event. Other than that, no, although they teased it heavily after Jericho won the title.
ReplyDeleteSo did I...when I yelled out "I CAN see you, and you fucking suck!" during his 5 Knuckle spot (he heard me too, b/c HE shot me a look right after haha).
ReplyDeleteJeff Hardy, Rey Mysterio, there have been some shitty mike workers to win the world title
ReplyDeleteHalf dozen, quick-pick 6, no part timers
ReplyDeleteI love when wrestlers respond to your heckling at a show-best one for me is when I yelled you suck at Roderick Strong from ringside at an ROH show-his oh so classy response
ReplyDelete"Suck my dick"
modern main stream north American wrestling is a very safe, anti "hard way" style. this is neither criticism or praise-simply an observation. It makes sense that someone who doesn't share the idea that not bruising your opponent is the most important part of wrestling would be looked on poorly buy those who do
ReplyDeleteand minus the being good enough to warrant a world title push
ReplyDeletenot true the disqus crashes my Blackberry browser about 80% of the time. I'm suprised I have been able to even write this post.
ReplyDeleteBad as he was on the mic, Hardy was two things.
ReplyDelete1) A WWE creation.
2) Fantastic at playing the plucky underdog.
While he shared a history of screwing up with RVD politics wise, Hardy was as close to the total package of being a superstar as you can get without A+ mic skills,
As for Rey Mysterio... please. He's so far beyond RVD workwise it's scary. The guy is Chris Benoit without the drugs and the overly seriousn nature. He's one of the best workers of all time, he sells merchandise like Daniel Bryan sells in general, and he's managed to succeed in ECW, WCW and WWE by repeatedly changing the way he structures matches. The guy is so far beyond RVD it's scary.
And about Rob, he should've got the strap in '01 when he was in his prime(when I created this sn originally on Yahoo). But ECW should also have been a 3rd rebel faction lead by Heyman who grabbed control by taking the WWE title. By '06 I wasn't even and Rob fan becuz he was a JTTS from '03-'06 and had lost his edge he had in '01 that made him an instant big star.
ReplyDeleteMy point was simply that if you are over as fuck-it doesn't matter what your mic skills are
ReplyDeleteEh, I dug the finish.
ReplyDeleteMostly because Mysterio went NECK FIRST through the table. I can totally buy that the match was thrown out after that. BUT... they should have had Sabu get up and friggin' snap. Throw commentators around, break another table with a moonsault, etc. Course, I'd book Sabu as ECW's version of Goldberg...
Never talks, destroys people in squashes, but when his music hits for a big angle you know the shit is on.
Who wouldn't mark out for an ECW equivilent of CM Punk boasting they'd been champ for a year, and then Sabu's music plays. And the champ in ring realise there's a table and a chair already in the ring.
The problem was RVD not adjusting to the WWE style of wrestling.
ReplyDeleteBUT... his first matches in WWE were ladder matches and streetfighters. So I don't think anyone sat him down and told him what NOT to do, ya know?
True - but being over as fuck got RVD to the upper card. And he gave people reasons to kick him back down.
ReplyDeleteAnd they were petty reasons. Angle, Austin and Jericho worked pretty stiff themselves. Chances are they just didn't want any competition on top, given how comfortable they were. Someone like RVD, who I concur WAS MONSTER OVER, could have (not should have, but could have) had a solid few weeks as champ, but was arguably too threatening for the top line crew. Unlike Benoit, who was a great wrestler but not the 'guy' you built a company around. So there was less threat when he becasme champ.
They had a semi-decent match at KOTR 2002
ReplyDeleteFrom memory it was ok, but never really hit top gear.
Jericho thought it was the shits though and had a little bit of a meltdown when he went online afterwards and didn't see it being given *****
"The guy is Chris Benoit without the drugs"
ReplyDeleteTwo wellness strikes, Signature Pharmacy, and his injury history say otherwise.
Yeah I remember Jericho being a whiny bitch about that and calling it the match of the decade or something and how "internet fans" were never pleased etc... I remember Scott talking about it and saying "And I gave the match of the decade ***1/2 btw"
ReplyDeleteI love the Edge/Foley vs Dreamer/Funk match. The "Fuck pin" on Beulah and later getting involved in the main event is IMO when Edge was cemented as a legitimate main eventer for life (or at least career).
ReplyDeleteYes. To this day I feel frustrated that he didn't get the belt... I have an analogy to make here but, well this is the PG era (and I am at work).
ReplyDeleteRon Simmons... I meant uh the completely unknown masked guy from Doom once told a 10 year old Parallax1978 to shut up when I told him he sucked at a house show... to this day I think it was the coolest moment I've had at a live show.
ReplyDeleteCena, Sheamus, Miz, Big Show, Bryan... you're right that's all I've got... I can't even include Punk as he seems to be very immature outside of WWE... and I don't even like anyone on the list except Bryan mentioned but they are the only full timers that I can think of that can handle themselves both on and off the show in a professional way.
ReplyDeleteOh man do I seriously disagree. I think Mysterio and RVD are very similar stories. They can't talk that well, they use the same stupid spots over and over again, they both have done way to many drugs (and the ones Mysterio have done are far more harmful... especially seeing as he had just watched 2 of his best friends die from issues related to them) and they both sell a ton of merch, or at least did at one point. To me Mysterio is the most over rated worker... maybe ever... and is a moron who doesn't deserve the second chances he has gotten.
ReplyDeleteThere's something about Disqus that crashes/freezes Firefox for about 10 seconds when I open the community rants. It's actually why I am a hardcore reader but rarely post unless I have a question I'm hoping a BoDer will be able to answer for me.
ReplyDeleteTHANK YOU! I don't know why Mysterio is held to a different standard on this shit.
ReplyDeleteit works fine for me and I also use Firefox?!
ReplyDeleteI didn't notice anyone else mention it before, so that's why I have never said anything about it myself; I just assumed some combination of my specs/settings made me an isolated case.
ReplyDeleteZiggler, Cena, Miz, Sheamus, Bryan, and Punk have all either played the role or are capable of it. Orton (well, the Orton from 2009 to 2011), Big Show, and Mark Henry are all worthy representatives of the WWE as well but they break down pretty quickly.
ReplyDeleteI'd throw in Del Rio (by far, the most underrated wrestler by smarks), Ambrose (the mf'er looks hungry as hell), Cesaro, and Barrett as possibilities in the future.
That's one of the great things about indy shows, it's almost like interactive entertainment.
ReplyDeleteI remember that random Raw ending with Jericho and McMahon being put in the figure four by both RVD and Flair.
ReplyDeleteThe One Night Stand match had such a terrible finish. RVD didn't beat Cena; Heyman took the title away from Cena by counting the fall after Edge's blatant run-in. RVD was just in the right place at the right time and only got the belt as a bi-product of some other guy's vendetta. It the same way Jericho won his first title, where Booker T. basically wrapped the belt around his waste.
ReplyDeleteEven if RVD hadn't Cheeched his Chong, I don't imagine his reign would have lasted much longer. Outside of the ECW nostalgia factor of that one show, RVD was significantly less over than he'd been during the Invasion. He probably would have held the new ECW title a bit longer, but it wouldn't surprise me if Edge was taking the WWE title at the next PPV anyway, which would have made RVD look like a total stooge. During the Invasion RVD was fresh and unexposed. By ONS I think he'd reached his true ceiling and qualified for that title reign more through circumstance than merit.
I think it's fine that Punk be prickly (especial since he is a heel now) it's 2012, the champion doesn't have to be your spokesperson anymore hell, I highly doubt Yokozuna was making the talk show runs as champion
ReplyDeleteI'd think Mysterio before Miz, especially with this AWFUL face run of his.
ReplyDeleteThe finish might have worked if it was 20 or 30 minutes into a brutal match-but 9 fucking minutes, that's pathetic
ReplyDeleteI was at an ROH show once, and a little kid (probably around 8-12) was heckling American Wolves Davey Richards. Davey wasn't really acknowledging him and then the kid yelled "You're a PUSSY Davey," and Davey turned around, spat in the kid's direction, gave him the finger and said, "And you're a little bitch." Some heat was gotten off that move. I would say that Davey went too far, but the kid's dad should have reeled him in before it came to that (and the kid shouldn't have been using that language to begin with), so maybe a lesson was learned.
ReplyDeleteyup, as interactive as almost getting my fingers broken when RD Evans went flying and squished them to the baricade...good times-was caught on camera too
ReplyDeleteTrue...ish I mean he did deck that guy in the crowd without even thinking about it... I just don't see him as being a good representative of the company... not only because of his shall we say lack of polish that is required to be a spokesperson but because his tattoos and such would be off putting to a lot of everyday folk.
ReplyDeleteHeel Davey is a lot more fun then Face Davey, because he just HATES on the crowd, he shot the crowd multiple middle fingers at boarder wars and every time he had the advantage rubbed it in that Steen wouldn't win...we all know how that ended for Davey
ReplyDeleteOh the decking of that fan was unfortunate, but Punk not being a good representative is kind of the entire point of his shtick, no one respects him because he isn't what the company is looking for
ReplyDeleteMrs. Parallax1978 once sat to close to the "barricade" (basically a chain link fence) at an indy show and had her knee pressed against it... when someone took a bump there he hit his melon on her knee and came away with a nasty welt... sadly my please of "turn this into an angle" were ignored.
ReplyDeleteThat's just his current gimmick. Even if he was a smiling babyface (which he has been in the past to some extent) he is still by all accounts I've read a total dickhole who is both incapable of, and has no interest in being the guy doing the Make A Wish, Jay Leno (he's still the host right) talk show rounds and all of that stuff.
ReplyDeleteI once had a guy badly blow a plancha and land right on my knee (no guardrails at this show). I was limping around for the next week.
ReplyDeleteI think he means, "This guy is Chris Benoit without the murder-suicide."
ReplyDeleteExactly. That was kind of like the Bryan/Sheamus match (though not NEARLY as bad), basically just a big "fuck you" to the fans that paid to see it.
ReplyDeleteCan someone explain something to me. RVD was a FANTASTIC heel in ECW. Why has he never turned heel again since 1999? He's an awful face. I get that his entire offense is based around highspots and that never works with a heel, but seriously, not even during his Invasion run was he booked as a heel. It's insane to think the guy has been a face for over ten years when someone like Big Show switches every other week.
ReplyDeleteI really don't think anybody gives a shit about tattoos anymore. I mean, they're clearly not gang-related, so anybody that'd give a shit is in my opinion, somebody to be ignored.
ReplyDeletePunk enjoys doing Make-A-Wish. I heard him talk about it and how he wishes he could do more. He's just low profile about it.
ReplyDeletePeople keep forgetting that ADR was the number 2 face in the number 1 Mexican promotion. His english is pretty fucking good and he actually knows what he's talking about when it comes to wrestling.
ReplyDeletePlus he's a great worker.
Juvie was the better luchador worker! That's right, I said it!
ReplyDeleteHeyman touches on this in the ECW DVD as a positive -- that there had never been an attraction like Van Dam in wrestling. The fans didn't want to see him be angry and get in people's faces. they wanted him to be laid back and do the thumbs.
ReplyDeleteThis is where he missed Fonzie in WWE. I know it likely would've never worked. But Fonzie added a little something to the Van Dam character -- the riot to Van Dam's quiet.
They tried to book him as a heel in the Invasion originally. He hit Matt Hardy with a chair prior to his first title match against Jeff Hardy at Invasion or Summerslam, I can't remember. but they started doing awesome high spots and the crowd started chanting RVD, and it was over. The tweener thing worked best anyway.
ReplyDeleteDidn't help that everytime RVD's music came on, Heyman would have an orgasm.
Correct. On the Nerdist Podcast he specifically said he enjoys doing Make-A-Wish but because of his character he doesn't like to publicize it--especially now that he's a heel.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you're too far off - this was when the ECW/WCW guys were being brought in and everyone was pissy and worried about their spot. A ECW guy brought in as a midcarder becoming a top guy in months wouldn't have sat too well.
ReplyDeleteI thought Psicosis was better than either of them.
ReplyDeleteThe extreme Goldberg? I love that!
ReplyDeleteIt's very fun to chant R-V-D if you're at a live show.
ReplyDeleteNo, he didn't go too far. If a parent raises their little kid to be that dsirespectful they deserve what they get.
ReplyDelete