So yeah, Survivor Series did the lowest number in the history of the show at 122k domestic, which kind of shows that they may have killed off Ryback. So at least Miz can say his show outgrossed this one.
So yeah, Survivor Series did the lowest number in the history of the show at 122k domestic, which kind of shows that they may have killed off Ryback. So at least Miz can say his show outgrossed this one.
I wonder if completely reshuffling the card after the first raw hurt things? Cena was in the main event against ryback and punk, so vkm is probably shocked this show drew so low.
ReplyDeleteAlso imo some of the blame falls on sheamus, or at least the way he's booked. He's probably supposed to be the #4 guy at least right now but his feuds with adr (which I liked) and with show (where he had the best big show match ever) have not gotten over and is not making people watch. The guy can work, has mic skills, and hhh's stroke behind him. But they book him like shit (bad jokes or as a heel basically) and it is absolutely affecting how over he can get.
Oh boy. Well now I'm curious to see how TLC comparatively. You would think lots of people were excited to see Cena and Ryback in the same ring, especially with the thinking that one of them was getting the title off Punk.
ReplyDeleteThis makes me so happy.
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with Ryback the person, the real guy. But I absolutely LOATHE his character and the style of wrestling. It's for 5 year olds. That Goldberg crap can never go beyond what it is. Being emotionless, hard-hitting moves, never sells, can't be stopped, blah blah blah. It's so boring, and it absolutely does not work outside of the squash matches. I mean, c'mon, he can't even get a match above *** with CM Punk AND John Cena? That's pathetic.
I like to equate a little of this to the horrible taste in the mouth that HiaC left. No one bought anything happening in the main event either
ReplyDeleteAnd not to step on jesse bakers feet or anything but my first instinct is to blame the horrible booking of all the faces on cena protecting his spot. But cena is also booked like shit half the time as a face. A great example of cena babyface booking is during the mitb11 match where he broke his submission hold to knock out johhny ace to prevent punk from getting screwed. But more and more they do shit like the ziggler run in which helps no one, especially not cena.
ReplyDeleteRandomly changing already announced PPV cards does wonders for the buyrate.
ReplyDeleteYou mean changing the card 13 days before the show does not, in fact, equal buys? Not saying Punk v Foley teams would have scored higher but having a consistent build couldn't hurt.
ReplyDeleteOn the plus side they've captured Ryback's lightning in a bottle and smashed the bottle into a million pieces.
I guess Cena main eventing the past two underperforming SSs has been buried by a bunch of make a wish requests.
Somewhere, Brock Lesnar is counting his money and laughing maniacally.
ReplyDeleteMy problem with Ryback is so far, the only reason he's over is the streak. Let ANYONE go out there with that push, and they're over. He hasn't really captured my imagination as a talker, hate his catch phrase, not really impressed with his move set and his finisher sucks. Sorry I don't know its name but that from the shoulders over the head drop move Cesaro does is much more impressive looking.
ReplyDeleteFEED ME M-Hey,where are you going?!
ReplyDeleteThe Neutralizer? Especially when he dead lifts guys into it. The problem with someone just being over for having a win streak is that it has a short shelf life. If all you have is a win streak then you just aren't going to last.
ReplyDeleteI think it's because they dropped the "The" from his name. Ryback is a juiced-up rube with 2 moves and no ability to carry a match. The Ryback is a license to print money.
ReplyDeleteOr when he put Brodus Clay in it. Man, they should be booking Cesaro as a Ludvig Borga-esque killer.
ReplyDeleteHe was pushed too fast to the main-event. Fans hadn't had a chance to get invested in him yet.
ReplyDeleteTotally. When does Cena get blamed for bad buyrates or ratings?
ReplyDeleteSo Ryback v. Punk draws more than Ryback v. Punk v. Cena. And the PPV without Cena is their most successful non big-3 (Summerslam, Rumble, Mania) show of recent months. Either it is good that they draw the same or better without Cena, or bad news that no one but Lesnar or Rock can move the needle at all anymore.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm interested in TLC's buyrate as well. If it tanks, I'll bet Dolph Ziggler gets blamed.
ReplyDeleteI like the style...just not the way Ryback does it. It'd be fine IF he delivered the moves with any kind of impact and/or speed. Quite frankly, he has less intensity in the ring than he showed as Skip Sheffield (and come to think of it, his clothesline looked a hell of a lot better then)!
ReplyDeleteThe buyrates were piped in.
ReplyDeleteIt's almost impossible to figure these things out anymore. Ryback-Punk at HiTC outdrew the previous year, but Ryback-Punk AND Cena was a bomb? Is it Cena? Is it the change in the main event?
ReplyDeleteImo, they should have just stuck with the classic survivor series Punk vs. Foley to prolong the Ryback feud in a more organic way and let Cena wrestle Dolph or something.
Yes, can we please end the myth that Cena is some gigantic PPV draw on his own?
ReplyDeleteIn general, I think people online tend to overreact to individual buyrates.
ReplyDeletei think it has something to do with the whole turd of a card and the changed main event made it seem like a clusterfuck. but i thin k the main reason is when they suddenly threw in their hot new act in the title match at hell in a cell it was intriguing to see where they would go with it and unpredictable. there was a small chance they shuffle their plans and give ryback the title, even if just for the night. by survivor series it was obvious punk was gonna win via screwy fashion and we were just on hold until the rock match at royal rumble.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a fan either. One positive is I'm glad he seems to have cut out the "I HIT HARD!" catchphrase.
ReplyDeleteHis clothesline is surprisingly bad. Especially for a move they are trying to build up as a signature thing for him. They need to bring in Rick Steiner and teach him how to throw one.
ReplyDeleteI don't think the general public cares about someone's ability to carry a match.
ReplyDeleteThey screwed up by even having him talk. If you're gonna go Goldberg, go all the way.
Bingo. WCW waited almost a year before giving Goldberg his first World title shot (which he won, of course). Hell, it took seven months before they even put the U.S. strap on him.
ReplyDeleteI disagree completely on Sheamus having mic skills. I have not seen a good Sheamus promo, much less a great one.
ReplyDeleteAnd no way was that the best Big Show match ever. His match against 'Taker at No Mercy (08?) was better, for one. That's not even including the tremendous triple threats he took part in.
But Sheamus is an incredible worker, no doubt.
Maybe it's not Ryback but more CM Punk who is getting boring as Champion.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention what a terrible name "The Meat Hook" is for a signature move.
ReplyDeleteThe live attendance sucked too. 8,500 I believe it was, and a lot of them were comped.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with that is cena was in the match also. If punk AND cena together can't sell a ppv...
ReplyDeleteSheamus' best promo ever was with Beaker the Muppet.
ReplyDeleteThe Alpamare Water Slide. Cesaro should be using that as his finisher instead of the Neutralizer.
ReplyDeleteOkay, yours was better.
ReplyDeleteI think that's fair too. He certainly hasn't moved the needle. But neither has Cena, who is constantly portrayed as a bigger star than the business itself.
ReplyDeleteHey, I actually love that name. Sounds vicious. And I think the clothesline is by far the best of his moves (I know, I know...). In fact, I think it should be his finish.
ReplyDeleteEither that or the tea party with Santino.
ReplyDeleteI again wonder why PPV main events are based/blamed purely on the main event.
ReplyDeleteHell in a Cell does well: MUST BE RYBACK!
Series does badly: THAT FUCKING RYBACK!!
Come on now, what difference does a month make to a character?
EVERYTHING!
ReplyDeleteThat myth only holds true for idiots as well as the higher-ups in WWE.
ReplyDeleteSo yeah, it just holds true for idiots.
I agree with you completely. The Ziggler run in was so idiotic and makes everyone involved look like a dork. But that's the price you have to pay when you have Cena with the same non-money drawing gimmick for EIGHT YEARS without tweaking much.
ReplyDeleteThank god, but ofc they wont pull the plug on that. they will use the shield to bump n feed ryback til he gets over.
ReplyDeleteMatt makes a good point.
ReplyDeleteif it had been John Cena vs Wes Brisco - ONCE IN A LIFE TIME, WM would have sold just as much.
The following month, Extreme Rules sold about 50,000 more than they did the year before. Obviously, if Lesnar hadn't been involved, and we got John Cena vs Wes Brisco - TWICE IN A LIFE TIME, it would have sold the same.
The main event & stars that sell the show have nothing to do with a buy-rate. People just buy'em on a whim, they could careless if it was a blank screen for 3 hours.
The show I'm interested in seeing the buyrates for is TLC. Last year's show didn't have Cena on the card, this year's did.
ReplyDelete"People just buy'em on a whim, they could careless if it was a blank screen for 3 hours."
ReplyDeleteWhat the fuck are you talking about?
Ouch. Honestly, It's unfair to pin this on Ryback, and I don't think Scott was trying to solely. WWE has systemic problems. The most important one being, as many have stated, PPVs are no longer conclusions.
ReplyDeleteEh, It was Miz's fault
ReplyDeleteEverything is. Chris Benoit killed himself to avoid working with The Miz. And took his family with him just to be sure they never had to either. Miz also planned the 9/11 attacks. And Miz is the reason this joke is wildly offensive.
ReplyDeleteI think the big problem is all the ppv buyers know Punk/Rock is happening at the Rumble, so there's no point in buying any of the shows until then.
ReplyDeleteThey might have done better if they had Ryback and Cena cutting promos about how they were going to beat Punk so they could be the ones who got to fight Rock at the Rumble. But we all kind of "knew" the match had to end in a screw-job. Who's going to pay $60 for that?
See my point above. punk/Rock is set in stone, so a lot of the drama is removed from the title matches on the ppv shows until then.
ReplyDeleteUm, no. Wrestlemania might sell largely because of the hype of the event, but to act as if the actual card doesn't have anything to do with it is wrong. Rock coming back and his dream match with Cena being built up for a year is obviously a big reason why it scored it's huge buyrate.
ReplyDeleteI was making a joke. Matt said he didn't understand why PPV's doing badly are blamed on the main event. I was then being sarcastic and saying he was correct, that people just buy the PPVs for the hell of it, and don't care about the matches.
ReplyDeleteKind of unfair to pin this on Ryback when the entire product has been taking a nosedive in general over the past few months.
ReplyDeleteBut they didn't had any story which we could care about. It wasn't like MITB 2011 and they are not big enough to sell ppvs just because of their name.
ReplyDeleteIf they have no story, they rely on guys like Lesnar, Rock or Undertaker. And that is what they should have made. Last year The Rock was the draw. This year, they could have made something like Lesnar & Punk vs Cena & Ryback or so.
Matches =/= main event. His point is not everyone orders PPVs solely for the main event.
ReplyDeleteI ordered Over the Limit SOLELY because of Bryan-Punk. I had no interest in Cena-Ace.
I ordered BFG even though I was extremely disinterested in the main event (though it ended up being good).
Well-played.
ReplyDeleteSo you're saying...
ReplyDeleteThey're going to...
*puts on sunglasses*
Feed Us More
YEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH
To contrast:
ReplyDeleteHell in a Cell does well: No John Cena
Series does badly: John Cena isn't a draw
A lot of arbitrary arguments could be made here, none of them necessarily true.
The style can work in certain situations. TLC proved that garbage-style brawls are more his thing and there's something to be said for having a reliable brawler in the upper card.
ReplyDeleteThey should actually bring in Goldberg for a program with Ryback. If that doesn't work, turn him heel.
ReplyDeleteYeah, some of this definitely needs to be put on that pussified finish. And I'm pretty sure most of said that finish would ruin him, too.
ReplyDeleteThat really doesn't bode well for the TLC buyrate. I guarantee you that buyrate won't be John Cena's fault, though.
ReplyDeleteBut I thought all the PPV buys and all the money comes in from kids who don't care about any of this internet smark thinking and just want to root for John Cena and a few hundred nerds in basements have no impact at all on WWE business?
ReplyDeleteThis guy gets it
ReplyDeleteWell, I think even marks know stuff. All the kids know its gonna be Punk and Rock at Rumble, so there's no point buying a show until then. And if they don't, maybe their parents do. If I was raising a little Cena mark, and he wanted to get Survivor Series, I'd tell him he has to wait until the Rumble and throw in a DVD of something better.
ReplyDeleteOf course, I'd disown the little bastard if he rooted for Cena instead of Punk.
Yeah, I acutally imagine those are Vince's real reactions though.
ReplyDeleteThis was one of the worst build-ups in Survivor Series history. Nobody cared about any of the matches. Remember when the WWE treated Survivor Series like a big deal? If they'd like higher buyrates for Survivor Series, then treat it like a big deal. SummerSlam has also felt less and less important since 2003.
ReplyDeleteThe Survivor Series has always been the red-headed stepchild of "The Big Four". When was the last time they really treated it like a big deal? 1998? Before that it was like 1989.
ReplyDeleteThere have been good shows since then, but in terms of hype, they have never seemed to treat it with the same prestige as the other big events -- probably because its sole purpose for existing was to push Starrcade out of the PPV market.
IT'S NOT "MATT"! IT'S "MAFF"!!
ReplyDelete(somewhere in America, Nick Foley sheds a silent tear...)
Our society is now so complex that people like to dumb things down to the simplest components possible, in order to feel like they still have some control over their life.
ReplyDeletethis is an ongoing issue. I had this discussion on another board but gave up because several of the posters couldn't understand how blaming or crediting someone for ratings, ppv buys, house show attendance, etc. is so different now than in 1983. Heck it was different as soon as the ppv era started and it became even more different with the monday night wars. But some people seem stuck in the old mindset that the guy at the top always brings the fans or keeps the fans away, even in an era when 95% of the tickets are sold before fans even know who's appearing at house shows.
ReplyDeleteI disagree strongly. "I HIT HARD!" was primo comedy!
ReplyDeleteSeven people didn't get the joke.
ReplyDeleteWe need a sarcasm button here somedays.
That's the one. Would make a great finisher but not sure if he'd be able to get all body types up as easily as he does with the Neutralizer.
ReplyDeleteI'd rather that. They need to do something new with him because even though I love Claudio from his time in the indies he is currently doing NOTHING for me in WWE.
ReplyDeleteI'm gonna say what I bet a lot of us are thinking: the finger of blame could be pointed at Cena for this one, that his inclusion in the main hurt the buyrate b/c people are tired of him and/or assumed he'd win anyway, and there'd be no reason to watch the show.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it so hard to believe that Cena = Loss of $$$?
In short, screw Flanders.
(and Cena)
I know it's kind of obscure but I love the Hardcore triple threat he was in from WM X7. I have a soft spot for it.
ReplyDeleteShow's had a couple matches that I'd put near each other in terms of best match. He had a couple vs. Taker in 08 that were up there. His match with Trips in 06 is up there as well.
I'd hardly say Cena's gimmick is "non-money" drawing. They don't have as high PPV buys as they used to have, but the PPV's are still making money. His merchandise sells money. Saying Cena hasn't made money for EIGHT years is a ludicrous.
ReplyDeleteI agree. True they aren't as high as they used to be, but they are still making money off these things.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't a very well built show. A rematch between Show and Sheamus, a thrown together SS match. And the main event was poorly built. It's not just the main event, the entire show wasn't built well.
ReplyDeleteRight after pounding a Coors Light and nailing Sable.
ReplyDeleteHey, you better watch out, man. If you keeping badmouthing him, he might challenge you to a lie detector test.
ReplyDeleteexactly. just look at the discussions on this blog before those particular ppvs. the build up to their hell in a cell match was much better because it had some intrigue to it. was Ryback really gonna lose? was CM Punk's championship actually be ended?
ReplyDeleteSelling merchandise and drawing ratings are two different things, though - Rey and Taker sell tons of merch, too, but that doesn't mean that the entire promotion should center around them 24/7.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely 100% agree.
ReplyDeleteI like Cena a lot, and pretty much always look forward to his matches, but I don't think there's a person on Earth that STILL wants to see Cena in every single main-event and have him be the center of the entire promotion.
Cena is a VERY talented guy, who can have great matches and cut great promos, but he's been in the spotlight for over SEVEN YEARS... enough is enough. His match against Rock should have signaled a changing of the guard, that somebody OTHER than Cena would have to be the one to beat the almighty Rock and lead WWE into the next boom period (not that that would NECESSARILY happen, but that's the kind of hype they should have been piling on the successor to Cena's throne). Have Cena main-event the following month against Brock, get destroyed, and now you have an interesting angle where Cena doubts himself and wonders if he can regain his former glory. Do NOT have him main-event against Ace, do NOT have him main-event against Show, do NOT have him main-event "Money In The Bank", and do NOT have him continue main-eventing virtually every PPV.
That's not saying that Cena can't contribute to the show; hell, that's not even saying that Cena can't be a major part of the show. Move him into the #2 or #3 Face role, like an Orton/Batista/Punk/Sheamus/etc.
Personally, I don't believe that Cena is the ONLY reason that the "Survivor Series" buy-rate fell, but I do think it's a major factor - IMO, people are just sick of seeing Cena in every main-event. Why not go with the originally-scheduled Punk/Foley program, but incorporate bigger stars into it? Cena and Ryback could have been on Foley's team, and the story could have been that the two of them both hope that scoring a pin-fall on Punk would (in their minds) guarantee them a title-match at "TLC".
I agree. It shouldn't center around him 24/7. But saying that Cena has been NONDRAWING for eight years is ludicrous no matter what way you slice it. I still think Cena would sell as much merchandise whether he's champion or not. Main event or not.
ReplyDeleteGet it through your head.
ReplyDeleteMerch sales > PPV buys.
I agree. BUT with ppv numbers down as they are you look to the next biggest money maker which is merch IMO and you focus your booking on the guys who sell the shirts.
ReplyDeleteI thought they made last year's feel pretty important.
ReplyDeleteWhatever makes them feel better about Cena being stale....
ReplyDelete"Wrestlemania might sell largely because of the hype of the event, but to act as if the actual card doesn't have anything to do with it is wrong"
ReplyDeleteSome people buy Wrestlemania because well.....it's Wrestlemania.
The card for 27 was pretty lackluster for a Mania and it still nearly hit a million.
I agree. Last years Summerslam was built very well on top. Punk vs. Cena was big. Orton vs. Christian in a Street Fight was also guaranteed to be a great match.
ReplyDeleteEven the undercard matches that really weren't hyped to hell felt important(Sheamus/Henry, Bryan/Barrett).
ReplyDeleteYeah I was pretty excited for Sheamus/Henry. That was a pretty good match too if I recall.
ReplyDeleteIt was. Actually the whole card delivered really(outside of the divas match).
ReplyDeletePersonally I'm a fan of Cee-Lo. I liked Goodie Mob, and I really like Gnarls Barkley and his solo album was fun. But he didnt give too good of a performance.
ReplyDeleteHaving him perform the theme live is fine, but was it really necessary to do it during the show? IIRC, Ziggler was on the Dark match. Have Cee-lo do his performance during the dark match time and put Ziggler on the PPV.
ReplyDeleteI didn't even remember that. That is a shame I think Ziggler and Riley could have had a good match. Especially considering the shocking reactions Riley was garnering during this time.
ReplyDelete