Hey Scott,
Multi-part question, but mostly related, so please bear with me:
I always wondered what the process was for a wrestler getting their finishing move. It's hardly debatable now to say how dull and generic the WWE product is now. One of those things I think that is a big part of that is the signature moves of the wrestlers. When someone is signed or brought up from development, are they assigned a move(s) randomly based on their character or build? There always seems to be SOMEONE using a variant of the Flatliner or the Overdrive or some other generic finish that bounces between wrestlers. Are the wrestlers allowed to suggest moves for themselves that they like or think they can do well, or is it a committee decision thing?
In the past, lots of the legends from even a decade ago had their signature move, but a lot of the time, it wasn't the first move they used as their finish. HBK used the Backdrop Suplex and the Piledriver with the Superkick as a signature move, before the Superkick became the one getting the bigger reaction. Suddenly, it goes from a stun/match reversal move into a knockout finish. Same goes for Austin and the StunGun to Stunner. The Rock tried out the CrossBody and ShoulderBreaker before hitting on the Rock Bottom.
This strikes me most in a couple current wrestlers: Ziggler & Ryback...Ziggler is awesome, but between the Sleeper & Zig Zag, he hasn't been hit with any real good finishes. He does the FameAsser, but thats another example of recycling someone else's finish. I always thought a good finisher for Ziggler would be the Lightning Spiral; still a quick/sudden move, but a lot more devastating and still possible to do without injuring the other guy. Ryback suffers from a great set-up/build on his finish & a super anti-climatic end with a simple fallaway slam. If the hookup and marching around led to an actual Muscle Buster or something, maybe I'd dig it more. Hell, his Backpack Stunner from his Sheffield days was better than the Shellshock is.
Sorry for the rambling, but thoughts?
Multi-part question, but mostly related, so please bear with me:
I always wondered what the process was for a wrestler getting their finishing move. It's hardly debatable now to say how dull and generic the WWE product is now. One of those things I think that is a big part of that is the signature moves of the wrestlers. When someone is signed or brought up from development, are they assigned a move(s) randomly based on their character or build? There always seems to be SOMEONE using a variant of the Flatliner or the Overdrive or some other generic finish that bounces between wrestlers. Are the wrestlers allowed to suggest moves for themselves that they like or think they can do well, or is it a committee decision thing?
In the past, lots of the legends from even a decade ago had their signature move, but a lot of the time, it wasn't the first move they used as their finish. HBK used the Backdrop Suplex and the Piledriver with the Superkick as a signature move, before the Superkick became the one getting the bigger reaction. Suddenly, it goes from a stun/match reversal move into a knockout finish. Same goes for Austin and the StunGun to Stunner. The Rock tried out the CrossBody and ShoulderBreaker before hitting on the Rock Bottom.
This strikes me most in a couple current wrestlers: Ziggler & Ryback...Ziggler is awesome, but between the Sleeper & Zig Zag, he hasn't been hit with any real good finishes. He does the FameAsser, but thats another example of recycling someone else's finish. I always thought a good finisher for Ziggler would be the Lightning Spiral; still a quick/sudden move, but a lot more devastating and still possible to do without injuring the other guy. Ryback suffers from a great set-up/build on his finish & a super anti-climatic end with a simple fallaway slam. If the hookup and marching around led to an actual Muscle Buster or something, maybe I'd dig it more. Hell, his Backpack Stunner from his Sheffield days was better than the Shellshock is.
Sorry for the rambling, but thoughts?
The transition from backdrop suplex to superkick for Shawn Michaels is actually a very interesting one, because generally once someone has their finish established like Shawn did they rarely let them change it around. Keep in mind that the product is very merch-driven, and for example THQ wants everyone to have easily identified finishers fo the videogame, I'd imagine. Plus they love having stuff to trademark. I've noticed that Ziggler has actually won a couple of major matches now with that superkick, so there might be something there. Generally in the modern era, though, I've noticed that guys will get their finisher early on and then stick with it FOREVER, no matter how lame. Back in the days of jobbers you could try stuff out from week to week and see what gets over the most. Ted Dibiase used to rotate finishers constantly before settling on the Million Dollar Dream, for instance. Nowadays you need something that's gonna beat Zack Ryder in 90 seconds and make fans pop for it without changing the channel, so everyone does the Test Drive or Flatliner, as you noted. With Ryback, it is what it is. He beats guys with it and it's over, so whatever.
Compared to most of the roster, Ryback's finish is fine. And according to Big Show, apparently a lot of people are campaigning for Ziggler to get the Super Kick.
ReplyDeleteI don't think THQ is calling the shots on much of anything at the moment.
ReplyDeleteI've always assumed that Shawn changed his finisher once he knew he'd be working his way up the ladder as a singles guy. There's no way he pulls off the Teardrop Suplex on the bigger guys in the company.
ReplyDeleteZiggler's jumping DDT would be a good finish, can hit it on anyone, looks good and has a set up for the fans to react to (kick to the gut). Could also be worked into many situations. The Superkick is still good for him though.
ReplyDeleteI thought the superkick would have been good fot jomo if he stayed but ziggler is an equally good choice.
ReplyDeleteThey actually seem to be letting guys miz up their finishers a bit at the moment, trying to find one that fits and pops the crowd.
ReplyDeleteOthers have mentioned Ziggler trying out the superkick, but Barrett has been through a few as well having traded Wasteland, for a side walk slam, for the current short-arm-elbow (I forget what they're calling it now)
Much as I like Wade I'm still not convinced they've found the right one for him
I think the elbow fits his character, playing into his bare-knuckle, street-fighting background or whatever...but yeah, it's not *quite* there.
ReplyDeleteI just want the piledriver to come back.
ReplyDeleteBefore Shawn retired, I always thought a cool idea would have been for JoMo to start using the super kick as a finish, HBK is pissed and boom, insta-feud.
ReplyDeleteI don't like the "short-arm" aspect of it - I think it'd be better if he were to bounce off the ropes and get a lot of momentum behind it, similar to JBL's "Clothesline From Hell".
ReplyDeleteWhen they gave Wade the elbow KO, kinda felt bad for Hero. Can't see them letting two guys use the same finish.
ReplyDeleteYou and me both. It's been long enough that they can put it over as a scary, deadly move again.
ReplyDeleteI remember when Miz/JoMo had a match with DX and he hit HHH with a great looking superkick.
ReplyDeleteOne of the nice things about wrestlers road testing finishers is that later on in their careers, when they're in the fight of their lives, it's always a big deal when they go back to the old finishers out of desperation. Steve Austin trying to beat the Rock with the Million Dollar Dream at X7 comes to mind.
ReplyDeleteLast guy I can remember pulling off a piledriver in WWE was Kennedy/Anderson in a match with Undertaker. That would've been a good finisher for him. I've never liked Downward Spiral type moves.
ReplyDeleteYes. Especially the spike piledriver for one of the tag teams!
ReplyDeleteCan I just say here that one finisher that I'm tired of is the variations of the F5. (I'm sure the F5 wasn't the first.) But I don't like the GTS, or the F.U. They're clunky and hard to use on people. You can't use it on someone really big.
ReplyDeleteCompare that to the brilliance of the super kick (sweet chin music, etc) or the Stunner or the Book-end/Rock bottom. Anytime, anywhere, no matter how tired you are, you can pull it off and still have it look good.
I also dislike the 619. And I especially disliked that Randy Orton DDT with legs on the ropes thing. Just because to pull it off, the person you're wrestling has to do a good chunk of the work.
I felt bad for Hero too but maybe it's better for him to find another finisher as I don't think the transition of his Young Knockout Kid to his current Kassius Ohno persona hasn't worked too well. The Young Knockout Kid persona worked in ROH because Hero already over enough as a heel before the gimmick alteration and the addition of the loaded elbow pad which I don't believe has been included yet in his NXT run. I like the idea of a dangerous brawler-type gimmick but wanting to knock opponents out isn't a really effective enough reason for either Ohno or Barrett to be hated as heels. The main part of wrestling is guys trying to win by simulating violence that appears to hurt so why should we hate someone whose preferred method is to knock his opponent outs? Surely most wrestler's finishing maneuvers knockout or stun their opponents long enough for a three count so why should Barrett or Ohno be any different? If anything I think it makes them appear more badass making them cooler in my eyes and also makes me consider whether Barrett might be more over as a face as long as they don't ruin it by making him another happy-go-lucky smiley smiley wisecracking kinda guy that stands up for whatever creative thinks what's right or wrong!
ReplyDeleteI preferred Hero's heel shtick from his Sweet n Sour days being managed by the late Larry Sweeney in ROH and feel it would be a better fit for WWE. My favourite moment from his NXT run so far which reminded me of that persona was when Ricky Steamboat confronted him about knocking out his son, only for Ohno to goad him by saying, "What are you going to do Dragon? Armdrag me?"
It should be a running elbow, or the "rolling" version at least. I guess the good thing with such a simple move is that he could change it up whenever he felt like it.
ReplyDeletewell, I mean, 2/3s of the Samoan drop position moves you just listed were pulled off against the big show, because the two guys who use them are freaky, crazy strong, but I don't think any of those moves flow that well. The GTS has grown on me some, but I still kind of wish Punk would switch to something else, and the FU is just sort of boring.
ReplyDeleteI see you put way more thought into this than I have.
ReplyDeleteMeh just irritates me to see that Hero could be used so much better rather than another generic 'Argh dislike me because I look angry' type heel!
ReplyDeleteI've really grown to like the idea of Ziggler using the superkick, but I could live with him using that DDT as his finisher. Anytime you have a good looking DDT, you've got something there (speaking of which, you know whose DDT I absolutely loved? Lita's. The leg wind-up thing she did when starting it really gave it a sense of momentum. One of the younger guys should steal that).
ReplyDeleteOn the subject of finishing moves.... can somebody explain to me how in the heck the Playmaker/Play of the Day/Overdrive move, used by Elix Skipper and MVP, supposed to hurt someone?
ReplyDeleteYou bring up a valid point. Big Show had some killer hits with that. he even took the Goldberg one at some point. But yeah. It just seems too easy to get out of. Compare to something like the razor's edge or even the sharpshooter which seem to me, more difficult to counter. (I don't know if I'm making any sense here.)
ReplyDeleteThank you! I don't get it either. I just looked at a compilation video on YouTube of MVP's Playmaker, and I noticed that they tend to switch cameras right before impact. Visually, the twisting motion of the guy taking it looks okay, but it's no Lightning Spiral (which would be an awesome finisher for someone, but it feels wrong for Ziggler). It's just a lame finisher. Why not just do a Fameasser or some neckbreaker variation?
ReplyDeleteI'm with you until you said the edge. that takes forever to set up, and he's hold you by your armpits. if you put your arms straight up, isn't it kind of hard to be held by your armpits?
ReplyDeleteEven Orton had the good sense to ditch that one. Probably one of the worst moves ever created.
ReplyDeleteI remember a story about Scott Hall telling Shawn in a car ride one day, "Just use the kick, it's your best fucking move, Shawn." And that was it.
ReplyDeleteGiven the bare-knuckle brawler, shoot fighter thing they're trying to get across with Barrett, it makes more sense to me to give him a mounted elbow barrage kind of thing. Or instead of the short-arm elbow, have him hit the knockout elbow out of nowhere, like when guys are charging him or jumping off the turnbuckle. I think the long set-up to the finish is killing it.
ReplyDeleteWhat's Ambross' finish? I thought the Piledriver would be perfect for him.
ReplyDeleteBrowsing youtube looking at finishing moves because of this thread and I just stumbled on a video of Andre the Giant giving some dude the Tombstone piledriver. Holy fucking shit.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfdDtMH0xQs
There also a video of Andre using the Pedigree. Who knew that Andre invented 2 of most famous finishes in wrestling?
It's going to be interesting to see what he gets as a finisher. He was using The Midnight Special which is similar to White Noise so he probably won't be using that. He used Regal's knee trembler and Regal Stretch when he feuded with Regal in FCW. I could see him using the knee trembler.
ReplyDeleteWrestling logic suggests either:
ReplyDeleteA) The opponent is dazed enough to not realize where he is, or
B) The person delivering the move is kayfabe strong enough to keep a tight grip, preventing the person from struggling out of it.
second that. the jumping ddt looks amazing.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. He was in my top five favorites for a long time, especially with the persona he had during the ROH/CZW feud. He can be the best weasely prick heel around, but making him a tough knocker outer of guys doesn't fit his vibe.
ReplyDeleteI think Orton's ddt looks amazing (because it looks so dangerous). only point of complaint for me is that I can't take the near falls after it seriously because he has never beaten someone using it (at least to my knowledge).
ReplyDeleteI dunno why we haven't seen anyone adopt a tornado DDT out of the corner as a finisher. It's a simple move, looks terrific, looks painful....it is dangerous, or what?
ReplyDeleteI thought the Wasteland was fine as a finisher. Barrett's a big guy, and he used to just fire guys down with it, heaving them to the mat like a pile of trash. It was a simple, but effective finisher.
ReplyDeleteI HATE the 619. One of the most business-exposing moves out there today.
ReplyDeleteI say that every time he hits that stupid shit. I remember at one of the ECW ONS PPV's he used it and the mutants shit all over it... Mick Foley was on commentary and said something like "You'll find that ECW fans have some very specific likes and dislikes... which is why I've left Mr. Socko at home tonight..."
ReplyDeleteNice find. Thats crazy
ReplyDeleteI remember that, that was the the first ONS. One of the greatest crowds ever.
ReplyDeleteBoth moves are very safe, so i could see him gettin them both over.
ReplyDeleteexactly, i thought that was gonna move him up and make miz the janetty, but the opposite happened.
ReplyDeleteeverything rey does is business exposing.
ReplyDeleteI will go on record and say that Rey Mysterio in WWE is just a bad move. Im sure he has made assloads of money though and glad for him but damn if i hate every single second of his wwe run.
Loved the fact they shit on the 619
ReplyDeleteAll of ortons move looks great. especially when fighting a similar sized oppoenet or smaller.
ReplyDeleteIf you never say anything else of merit on this blog, that was the best thing you ever typed here. That fucking move is so fucking contrived and looks terrible.
ReplyDeleteNever liked Wasteland, cuz there's no pizzazz to it.
ReplyDeleteIMO, finisher dont have to be sudden like the stunner/SCM but they have to be visually appealing and Wasteland isnt.
Canadian Destroyer as well
ReplyDeleteScott Hall seems to be behind a lot of great ideas. Shame he's not reliable.
ReplyDeleteWatch Kenta delevering the GTS, puts Punk's to shame
ReplyDeleteThe wasteland looked like it was more likely to tickle you then put you down for 3
ReplyDeleteCesaro is great but that Neutralizer is AWFUL, Swiss death (the indy name of his toss up europeoun uppercut) is RIGHT THERE
ReplyDeleteI mean look at this shit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8aUN7KuCrY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POgUijSjZoc
Love the rolling Elbow
ReplyDeleteWhich is bullshit, the fact that the fucking Miz is still on my screen and JoMo isn't is just SAD
ReplyDeleteI'd assume the long set up time
ReplyDeleteShawn mentioned that in his book/DVD
ReplyDeleteExactly! Weasely prick heel is definitely the best way to sum up that persona. It's what got him really noticed on the independents especially in ROH, CZW and Chikara. By all means give the character a viscous side in his matches but weasely prick heel brings out the best of Hero's charisma and is guaranteed to rile up most crowds.
ReplyDeleteThe Alphamare Waterslide would even be a better alternative finisher for Cesaro, although I got to admit that Neutralizer he performed on Brodus Clay a few months back looked great and really demonstrated Cesaro's deceptive strength.
ReplyDeleteOn a big guy it's impressive, but it's just such a contrived shitty move
ReplyDeleteHe has used that move in the last couple of weeks. Can't remember if he pinned anyone with it though.
ReplyDeleteWas Shawn's Teardrop Suplex named on-air or did that name generate online afterward? I only remember Gorilla calling it a 'side suplex.'
ReplyDeleteI like how the No Lock developed from its initial incarnation to its current form. When it was first introduce, the arm was simply clamped between the legs, which looked legit painful but awkward and escapable. Now, the arm is locked around the leg and once the move is cinched in, it looks almost impossible to counter.
ReplyDeleteBig show has two finishing moves doesnt he? Chokeslam and WMD. Same with sheamus. I approve!
ReplyDeleteI like the stealing a finishing move feud. Roh did it years ago with jimmy rave and aj styles, where rave stole the styles clash. Why not a feud where a heel claims to do a faces move better than the face can?
he even hit the superkick on Michaels who got pinned afterwards by The Miz.
ReplyDeleteI hated the Playmaker. The stupid finisher ever.
ReplyDeleteThe GTS is awesome. Punk drops the guy's face on his KNEE and fucking DRILLS him. I love it! The FU is terrible, it would be kinda awesome if it was a true Death Valley Driver, but as it is it's terrible.
ReplyDeleteAnd Punk can always get a big guy he can't put in the GTS with the Anaconda Vice, so it's all good there.
Back in 2004 he did some crazy shit. I used to love that neckbreaker he used to do out of his over-the-shoulder backbreaker. Crazy stuff.
ReplyDeleteIt seems unnecessarily showy in that the cradle doesn't really add anything to it--really it's a less effective version of the Styles Clash since he doesn't trap the arms. The first time I saw it I thought it looks like one of the Creat-a-Moves that you could make in Raw vs. Smackdown. It's hard to ignore the fact that he should logically piledrive the opponent since he has him in that position already.
ReplyDeleteI like the GTS alot... Part of the reason is that Punk has kept the Anaconda Vice over as a finish (won the strap from Del Rio and tapped Jericho at Mania). If nobody bought the Vise as a finish anymore I wouldn't like the GTS for Punk because he can't do it to everyone
ReplyDeleteFuj putting me over?
ReplyDeleteI have arrived.
That's what they called it in the WWF video games back then I think. Either that or the back suplex.
ReplyDeleteI love the Canadian Destroyer, but I won't disagree about the business-exposingness of it. I always thought it should only be a special occasion feud-ending move as well (like the Burning Hammer or Tiger Driver 91), rather than something used to finish every match.
ReplyDeleteThat move stinks
ReplyDeleteRey also had the ECW logo on the back of his mask. Showed he probably didn't understand how they were going to treat him.
ReplyDeleteI can still hear Jim Ross say "That's the million dollar dream...we haven't...haven't seen that in YEARS"
ReplyDeleteThe Styles Clash, another love-hate move that exposes the business like nobody's...well, Business
ReplyDeleteIn fact you can make it in Create-a-Move on WWE 13!
ReplyDeleteoh, I don't have a particular problem with it, I just think it'd be easier to escape an Edge setup than the fireman's carry that the other moves being discussed use.
ReplyDeleteI miss the days of feuds and themes set up AROUND finishers. Whose is the best figure four? Who had the toughest full nelson? Who is the master of the powerbomb
ReplyDeleteRoaring Elbow.
ReplyDelete