So obviously, the landscape has been littered with angles and feuds that went on for far too long. Cena/Orton, Kofi/Dolph, Ross/Rachel...but I wanted to ask:
A) what great angles were the perfect length? For me, that was Batista and HHH; first, the slow six-month build to Wrestlemania, where they had small hints of Batista being disenchanted with HHH, then brief bouts of rebellion ("Now YOU are starting to piss me off!"), then the awesome thumbs-up, thumbs-down contract signing. And even with the shitty WM21 and Backlash matches, they had an AWESOME Cell blow-off that cemented Batista as a legit star. Perfect story arc that created a new main eventer in a great slow burn fashion (instead of deciding to do it out of nowhere just 'cause a la Miz).
B) what potentially great angles did you wish panned out longer? The easy one for me is CM Punk winning the title in 2011. I agreed with bringing him back for Summerslam and not having him off TV for too long lest the momentum be lost, but the correct feud after that would've been sticking with the one that turned him money: Punk vs. the WWE itself, not Punk vs. The Kliq once HHH wanted some of that momentum, because HHH ON TOP, JACK, IS WHAT'S BEST FOR *THIS* BUSINESS! Also, Rated RKO had great potential.
Def. interested to see how you and the Commentators of DOOM! respond.
1) I think Hogan-Orndorff was just the right amount of time. Orndorff turned and they did the giant gate in Toronto to kick it off, then ran for a few months of house shows with the Orndorff by DQ finishes, then did all the return shows with the Hogan going over finishes, then let it cool for a bit before finishing it off on SNME once and for all. They generally got 2 or 3 HUGE houses out of each town, and then when it hit the logical end, they ended it and Hogan moved onto the Andre feud. Nice and neat.
2) Sticking with the old school motif, I think hindsight absolutely says that they should have done a fuck finish at Wrestlemania V and stretched out the Hogan-Savage title change to Summerslam. Savage was insanely hot as a heel and was drawing even bigger than he was as a babyface, and there’s no telling how high he could have gone after screwing Hogan out of his “rightful” title and forcing a chase all summer. Yeah, the Hulkamaniacs would have been pissed off, but fuck them for cheering for Hogan and fuck the high rollers who were comped into Trump Plaza and sat on their hands for the whole show. They didn’t deserve Savage’s greatness in 1989 anyway.
In keeping with the idea of Punk as the modern-day Savage, if we end up with the Rock/Cena/Punk triple threat at WM, hindsight's going to say that the belt should have stayed on Punk. I'm still in awe at the nuclear heat he was drawing for that false finish at the Rumble.
ReplyDeleteYeah, regarding Savage, I think the WWF may have inadvertently cost themselves some serious money in the long-run and increased their dependency on Hogan by having Savage go out in such a typical fashion (i.e. hulk up / big boot / leg drop).
ReplyDeleteThey did surprisingly good business with Hogan gone for part of 1988 -- way better than they did with Warrior in the same position in 1990 where house show attendance dropped dramatically and didn't pick up again until Hogan won back the title, but once Savage was just another guy, he never really drew on top by himself again.
I like feuds like Austin/Triple H, Triple H/HBK or HBK/Bret, where they don't necessarily feud for months at a time but they're always in a thorn in one another's side. It's like a sports team that has a rival - they don't play every night repeatedly but they hate one another and inevitably have to go through the other to get to the championship. As far as continuous feuds, off the top of my head, I agree with Batista/Triple H because it progressed. Batista went from the silent sidekick, to the challenger, to the champion who has to prove he could do it again, to the champion to has to end it once and for all in a cell match.....I think that's different from something like Orton/Cena where it's mostly the same match under different stipulations and nothing changes afterwards.
ReplyDelete"Hopefully they've learned from those kinds of mistakes."
ReplyDeleteBWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
If it becomes a triple threat at Mania, Punk is going to be doing the job so I think some might want to back away from wanting the three way thing.
ReplyDeleteI didnt see Savage as just another guy when he won the title at WM VIII. I dont know what kind of numbers he was drawing in that run though.
ReplyDeleteSavage/Flair and Flair/Steamboat were another in those feuds that lasted just the right amount of time too.
I didn't either -- but he was my favorite and I felt like the angle with Elizabeth was well built up, so perhaps I am a bit biased.
ReplyDeleteAs far as numbers post-WrestleMania, aside from the international tours they ran in Europe were an absolute disaster with Flair and Savage drawing record low numbers in many cities and ratings going straight into the toilet over the summer. I'm sure a big chunk that is to be blamed on the sex and steroid scandals (and to be fair WCW experienced a big decline too, but not as big) but I think if Savage had been held in higher regard in 1989 and 1990 in the promotion that he may have been able to buoy the organization a little better through the rough patch.
I have a feeling they're booking it somewhat on the fly. They booked themselves into a corner.
ReplyDeleteThey knew they wanted Rock as the champ as early as a year ago. They knew they wanted a rematch. I'm also sure they didn't plan on having Rock walk out out WM as the champ, but they won't have a heel win in the main event either.
What they didn't count on was the possibility that Punk *may* not face Taker and wouldn't have an opponent. Aside from Brock, Punk's faced everyone else and it wouldn't make sense for *him* to have a singles rematch (besides, turning Punk face would be a waste of his momentum as a heel). Although Punk has a nagging injury, Vince has most likely noticed how poorly Rock's been performing in ring.
I say forget about Lesnar/HHH 2. Throw Lesnar in the main event so there's plenty of star power, history of past feuds and it gives the idea that Brock - as contractually obligated by Paul Heyman - will team up with Punk so that he can regain the title. Of course, add to that the elements of dissension. Have Cena and Rock, despite their distaste of one another, form a pact that neither Brock nor Punk will walk out with the title because neither of them earned it.
I think it's inevitable that Cena walks out on top, unless Punk wins and they want to push him hard for another year.
Then throw together some combination of Triple H, Ryback and Sheamus versus The Shield.
You know, they probably could have kept the MegaPowers together through WMV and just do the breakup in the month after the PPV. Then you have roughly a year of heel Savage ducking Hogan and interfering in all his matches. You could even do the Mr. Perfect angle where it's Savage who costs Hogan the match against Damie--The Genius.
ReplyDeleteEither way, I definitely agree that they should have run with Savage as a heel champion for longer than the handful of months between the heel turn and WM.
Why? Who cares if Punk does the job? He's the heel...that's his job?
ReplyDeleteThough a 3-way elimination match could be awesome, with Rock getting taken out in the very beginning a la Taz (I know that'd be a terrible idea, but...Rocky can't go anymore).
Who cares? More than half the people that post here will bitch when Punk eats the pin. And it will all lead to Cena vs Rock again as Rock will be able to say that Cena still never defeated him.
ReplyDeleteI'd rather have a one-on-one just because I hate multi-man matches as the title match at Mania. Even though the HHH-HBK-Benoit triple threat ended up being awesome, I was against it then too. I just feel like WM title matches should be built around one-on-one issues. They could have inserted HHH into the WM X-7 title match after he beat Austin at No Way Out the PPV before, and it probably would have ruled, but we'd have lost the "I need to beat you, Rock" story.
ReplyDeleteI just feel like the one-on-one world title matches have more gravitas than the multi-man matches. Assuming, of course, that said one-on-one title matches last longer than eighteen seconds.
"Hopefully they've learned from those kinds of mistakes."
ReplyDeleteWWE is so mutated from what it was that I doubt they even learn from the good ideas back then.
Some hindsight fantasy booking regarding Punk after MITB 2011. Punk stays off tv for good. Cena holds the fake WWE title all the way up until his match with Rock. Rock wins the title at WM. Next night on Raw, Punk returns and they do the fake title/real title face off.
ReplyDeleteRock goes off to do whatever and Punk keeps defending the WWE title leading to a unification match whenever Rock comes back.
Hindsight has helped a lot with that angle. People at the time claimed that they HAD to rush Punk back to get a big draw for Summerslam, and yet even with that match it was one of the lowest buyrate Summerslam's in a long time. Cena-Mysterio could have drew equal to the Punk-Cena match. They could have kept Punk out longer.
ReplyDeleteBenoit-Triple H-Shawn is the rare exception. 9 times out of 10 I prefer a 1 on 1 match to a Triple Threat. Just like even though I love their Backlash Triple Threat, I'd have rather seen Benoit vs. Michaels in a singles match.
ReplyDelete70,000 people are gonna care in Metlife when Cena pins Rock. read: THEY GONE BE PISSED!
ReplyDelete"Vince has most likely noticed how poorly Rock's been performing in ring."
ReplyDeleteThey should have brought Pat Patterson back with The Rock to book his matches.
Best of both worlds:
ReplyDelete-Book Hogan/Savage with Zeus in Savage's corner at SummerSlam. Heel miscommunication spot leads to Hogan winning (or retaining) the belt. Zeus then beats the shit out of Hogan post match.
-Survivor Series has 4 on 4 Team Hogan vs. Team Savage. Zeus gets dq'ed for killing Hogan. Savage pins Hogan. Beefcake pins Savage for the win.
-Then blow off the feud in the No Holds Barred cage match ppv or on Saturday Night's Main Event. Hogan can defed the belt at house shows against Savage
-And Vince gets his wish by booking Hogan/Zeus for WM6...
Good call on HHH/Batista. I also liked the added touch of the dvd extra for Vengeance, which showed them both talking and eventually embracing in the locker room. Perfect touch to the fued.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPkSluOVJaU
A great moment that is missing from todays product
Wow, never seen that before, that was great stuff.
ReplyDeleteMy main point is why. As much as we dance around the issue...Punk is a heel. At the end of the day, he should get his comeuppance, and getting beat at WrestleMania is pretty good comeuppance, y'know?
ReplyDeleteGetting pinned in a match with John Cena and the Rock is not a burial by any means. And setting up Rock and Cena, while perhaps played out from an artistic stand-point, is a pretty brilliant business move.
ReplyDeleteMeh. Punk got his comeuppance at Rumble. Keeping Punk around as Cena and Rock's plaything will hurt him.
ReplyDeleteNo WAY should Punk have been off TV for nine whole months - ALL of the excitement would have been long gone by then.
ReplyDeleteThe way wrestling is today, simply keeping him off TV until the night of or night after "Summerslam" would have been perfect: they get a new and exciting Cena/Rey pairing for "Summerslam", and then use Punk's return to boost the buy-rate of "Night of Champions" (which is the perfect name for a PPV headlined by a unification match). It would give credibility to Punk's claim that he really would leave with the title, as a month is a long time when you produce several shows a week, and would also then give Punk the perfect motivation to come back, basically to show that the new king is merely a phony.
That's pretty much what the Cena/Punk feud has become - when you consider that they've been feuding on-and-off for over TWO YEARS (Punk took over "Nexus" six months BEFORE the "Pipebomb" promo), and can always be programmed against each other when needed. Their characters are perfect foils for one another, and they always put on fantastic matches together.
ReplyDeleteYeah but everyone is still fans. And as fans we have our favorites and we have our not-so-favorites. And it sucks to see our favorites lose, especially to out not-so-favorites. Most people on this blog are fans of CM Punk. Most people on this blog are not fans of the John Cena character. Thus, most are going to be disappointed when John Cena beats CM Punk. It's natural. As much as people here claim to be "smarks" were all still primarily fans.
ReplyDeleteI think wrestling companies - and wrestling fans - are too stuck in the black-and-white idea that the guy in the white hat always has to win in the end, or that all faces should be paragons of virtue while heels should be the lowest of the low.
ReplyDeleteI mean, I know that a lot of older wrestlers and fans didn't like that the nWo were "cool" heels, but that always felt like an outdated way of thinking. I mean, Hannibal Lector was a cool heel, no? Vic Mackey? Hell, Ric Flair was a cool heel! Why can't fans cheer for Punk, despite his arrogance? Fans certainly have no problem booing Cena, despite his depiction as the clean-cut all-American boy next door.
If Punk is in there with Rock and Cena, guess what? He's going to get the majority of the cheers. And he should win. THAT would be, in a sense, the face going over. Sure, he may not be a face in the sense of being a good person, but he's certainly a face in terms of being the person that the audience wants to see.
I get that from a visceral perspective.
ReplyDeleteLet me rephrase this.
Can we all agree that Emperor Palpatine was a great villain? Can we also agree that Vader throwing him into a pit was a great moment? Great villain's deserve great deaths. And Punk being absolutely demolished is a great way to go out.
Will it? Cause I see that the longer this feud continues, the more likely it is that Punk will pin the Rock.
ReplyDeleteBest world ever: Vince McMahon doesn't book an actor as the #1 heel over Randy f'in Savage in his prime.
ReplyDelete