Hey scott, read your stuff since 2000. love it. Back in January everyone on the blog and wrestling fans in general were pumped for Punk/Rock. Then we got it and i dont think it really set the world on fire. Personally i really liked the EC match but thought the rumble match was particularly boring. As a known Rock fan, just curious on your overall thoughts of the feud, particularly the EC match. Thanks.
I never saw the Chamber match, but the Rumble match didn't exactly shake the foundations of wrestling or anything. It was an OK feud without any real stakes to it aside from the insanely long title reign, pretty much just there to set up the giantest buyrate ever at Wrestlemania. So if that's what happens, it was a success. We'll find out in a couple of months, I guess.
There's only so long someone can be a special attraction before they're just part of the furniture, particularly if they can't back it up with special attraction-level performances.
ReplyDeletePersonally, although I have a mild interest in a few matches at this year's WM, I would be happy to see the buyrate come in way under expectations. Maybe then they'd finally get it into their heads that they need to build new stars not continue to rely on the old guard. When it comes to wrestling, I prefer my nostalgia in the form of DVD boxsets.
A lower than expected buyrate won't mean much in the grand scheme of things. They'll just blame it on the Miz for existing.
ReplyDeleteThey're seriously paranoid about putting over and protecting their wrestlers (except John Cena) because they think they'll all leave for bigger and better things like Rock and Lesnar did (you can even include Batista or Bobby Lashley to an extent), or that guys will have the freedom to just hang it up prematurely since they'll have made so much money, like Austin. They've brilliantly changed things so that people don't pay to see any individual draw anymore, they pay to see the WWE brand. This way, no one gets over enough to really have other opportunities outside of WWE since the 50/50 booking keeps wrestlers from really gaining mainstream exposure. Hell, they even train/develop the young guys to fit their idea of what a wrestler should be, regardless of his or hers actual strengths. And they've done all this while still being able to make money. Maybe not as much as they could make if they changed their approach to something better, but that would also invite risk and since there's no alternative to WWE, why bother to take a risk when you're still making a ton of money and there's no one forcing you're hand?
From a business perspective, it's brilliant. From a fans perspective, especially fans who have seen the glory days of the 80's or late 90's/2000, it totally sucks. The only two things that will force WWE to change their business and booking model is if A) they somehow stop making tons of money (I don't see that just randomly occurring) or B) TNA or some other wrestling company catches fire and starts to take money away from WWE and forces them to change in order to keep up.
Outside the "you're arms are too short to box with God" promo, I wasn't all in for Punk/Rock.
ReplyDeleteI hope Punk is getting his money, cuz all the goodwill in rebuilding the WWE title has been destroyed.
But I said it MONTHS AGO, Rock wins the belt and doesnt do house shows, and barely will be at RAW.
So basically we are hedging our bets for WM... Now with this shit build, i dont feel confident they are gonna pull it out in the 11th hour.
Punk should have never lost the title... Im not in the camp that he feuds with bryan forever to ****** matches, but Rock wasnt the one to drop it to.
he never was...
I mentioned this in a much older thread once: this mentality is just so damn hypocritical of the WWE, because they're absolutely obsessed with getting the same mainstream exposure and acceptance that they are scared of their top guys getting.
ReplyDeleteand cuz i love to look back... heres what i asked scott on 12/1/12
ReplyDeletets your friendly neighborhood Fuj here and I was thinking about Punk/Rock at the Rumble.
How could they conceivably job Punk to Rock on the Road to WM? (Just to say if he doesnt do the job at Survivor Series beforehand.)
I dont see Rock showing up as the WWE champ on RAW every week, and/or defending it at the Feb PPV because of his schedule and what not.
So does that mean Punk holds the belt til WM?
Holla back pimpin,
PS- You are gonna put me over one of these days.
Yeah, that's what Bret Hart said to Shawn Michaels in 1997, too.
Rock wouldn't be showing up as champion every week and probably not even in February, which would make it super-special when he DOES show up at Wrestlemania to defend the belt against Cena. Two months without the WWE title being defended at every house show isn't gonna kill anyone. Hell, they can even have Punk carry the belt around and claim to be the real unbeaten linear champion so people can get a "title match" on the shows until Undertaker finally returns to shut him up on behalf of Jerry Lawler. It'll be fine.
still wont put me over...
It sucks for the wrestlers but it's also not that uncommon for major companies to be like that. I would assume that most major companies like Google, Microsoft, Pepsi, whatever, are more content with either their brand or big executives getting the accolades and recognition as opposed to the real creative minds and/or engineers so that the company benefits while still keeping its talent where they want them to be on the company's terms.
ReplyDeleteI think their big mistake with Rock-Punk, which is the same thing they're doing with Punk-Taker, is that they booked it around Punk being the whiny bitch heel that fans will pay to see be put in his place. It's a complete disregarding of what the fanbase (not just the internet fans, but the everyday fanbase— go back and listen to the crowd reactions before the summer heel turn) wanted from Punk. Had a Punk-Rock feud been booked as two equals colliding, and letting the fanbase pick their side, the whole thing would have been way more interesting. Instead, it was booked as Rock coming to kick the ass of the weaselly guy who'd fluked his way to the title for months on end, whom you BETTER NOT CHEER!
ReplyDeleteAlong those lines, I think they misinterpreted how much of a groundswell there was to see Rock win the title. They never bothered to make it seem like the title even mattered to Rock, other than his false "TEN. LONG. YEARS." stuff. There was no journey, no feeling like The Rock actually wanted this. At least with Rock-Cena, as bad as that build was last year, the backstory felt realistic and interesting. Cena badmouthed Rock, the fans hated Cena, and it would be cool to see Rock beat him.
With Punk-Rock, the conclusion never felt in doubt, and it revolved around a heel that most of the audience still wanted to cheer, and a face whose motivations were really hard to buy into.
That promo was one of my favorites ever, I think. Truly phenomenal.
ReplyDeleteA lot of it was the foregone conclusion aspect of the feud. Of course, foregone conclusions aren't always a bad thing (see: WM14), but when you know it's just going to result in the Rock getting fed to Cena then it makes the whole 400+ days thing really anti-climactic. Also, Rock being unable to go more than 5 minutes without blowing up really hurt the matches. But we did get some great promos out of the feud!
ReplyDeleteI'm curious to know what would've happened if William Moody hadn't died. Obviously, that would preferable for everyone, but - without meaning to sound callous - it's the only thing the Punk/Taker feud has. It's the only reason the 'feud' is happening beyond Punk winning a fatal 4-way.
ReplyDeleteSo they're afraid of anyone getting TOO over and leaving them, ala Rock or Brock... so instead they build the company (when it matters) around Rock and Brock. They really are fucking insane, aren't they?
ReplyDeleteI think foregone conclusions work when the fans are REALLY looking forward to the conclusion. Like Stone COld winning the title at Mania 14 and 15 were foregone conclusions, but it didn't matter because he was by far the most popular guy in the company and fans would happily pay just to see him win.
ReplyDeleteBut 2013 Rock is not in that category, and 2013 Cena is certainly not in that category.
That's why, again, I don't think there's a chance that this year's Mania does as well as the last two, because the hook of the show is basically "watch Cena win the title", and it's pretty obvious that the fanbase isn't psyched about that prospect. I mean, just listen to the difference in Cena crowd responses the last few years. It's no longer "majority of the crowd cheers Cena, while the loud minority boos" or "Cena gets booed in smark cities." Listen to the TV crowds, no matter which city they're in. (Taking Monday night in Pittsburgh as an example.) More than half the fanbase is firmly anti-Cena at this point. It's no longer a fad or an "internet thing." The dude is just significantly less popular than he was even 2 years ago, and the fact that they're building an entire Mania around his popularity is pretty crazy.
But it's different because the consumer is not paying money for the product BECAUSE it was designed by those people vs. I would say in wrestling it's much more likely that people are invested and willing to pay for product if it features their favorite wrestler doing interesting things. I don't think this strategy will work in the long run and hope it doesn't.
ReplyDeleteThere are a few little things they could've done to retain some intrigue going into the EC PPV. For instance, they knew there was going to be a new title belt, why not have Punk carry around the old one for a month while Rock parades his new one. It plays into Punk's 'you may have a belt, but I have the title' stuff.
ReplyDeleteBut people are paying for the Pepsi itself, not the engineers.
ReplyDeleteNot just an entire 'Mania but presumably the rest of the year. 2013 is his redemption since Rock ruined his life by forcing him to get divorced or something. Now we can bare witness to a year of Cena making goofy faces while destroying all the young promising heels they've developed over the past year.
ReplyDeleteYou just summed it up perfectly.
ReplyDeleteWell, good luck to them with that, because that shit is gonna bomb. First of all, Cena's popularity is definitely on the downswing, PLUS there aren't even any well-built heels to match him up against. Do they think people are really gonna pay to see Cena attempt to beat the odds against Sandow, Cesaro, Rhodes, Wade Barrett, etc after they've already been jobbed out on TV all year? Is Cena vs heel Orton (which COULD have been interesting with the face/heel roles reversed) their big Summerslam main event? Plus, for Chrissakes, they already had Cena beat Brock last year, so even that match has lost a lot of drawing potential.
ReplyDeleteI agree, 2013 is definitely gonna be booked similar to Cena's heyday in 2007 or so. It's just so crazy that they think that's what people are clamoring for.
But how can we say that his popularity is on the downswing? He's been getting mixed reactions for virtually his entire face run. I, personally, don't see any difference in reactions from 2006 and 2013. Maybe we all HOPE it's on the downswing? Sadly, that doesn't make it true.
ReplyDeletedon't forget the poop jokes and smirks!
ReplyDeleteI think it worked fine before. Punk wants to prove he really is the best in the world. Taker's streak will cement that.
ReplyDeleteHe truly is King of the WWE Pooniverse.
ReplyDeleteDid somebody say poon? As in poontang pie?
ReplyDeleteBefore he died, there was actually in my mind a 10% chance that Punk may go over. Now that they've turned it into another urn stealing angle, there's 0% chance of Punk going over.
ReplyDeleteIt's Rock vs. Cena - Twice In A Yeartime! The WWE Poo-niverse vs. The WWE POONiverse! #sexorfeces
ReplyDeleteI definitely think the difference is clear. In 2006, the booing on TV would be audible, and perhaps overwhelming at Mania or in NY, Chicago, etc. But overall, Cena was getting wayyyy more cheers than boos in the typical WWE town.
ReplyDeleteI'd say that if you listen week to week for the past couple of years, the split has moved away from that. Again, just listen to Monday night as an example. They were in Pittsburgh, hardly a smark town, and the crowd response was overwhelmingly negative the moment he hit the ring. It's not like he was in there with Rock or someone popular to split the reaction——— it was just Cena hits the ring, and probably 60-70% of the crowd is booing him on sight alone. That's definitely a noticeably worse reaction than he was getting in his heyday.
What I'm saying is: a few years ago John Cena was getting "mixed" crowd reactions. Nowadays, he's getting negative ones.
As somebody who has never been a Rock fan, and thought his matches and promos since his return have been ridiculously bland since his return, I was SOOO psyched for Rock/Punk. I figured that Punk would bring the most out of Rock, that the opportunity to work with a hot new property would light a fire in Rock, both in the ring and on the mic, and I just could not WAIT to see them go at it.
ReplyDeleteAnd then it happened, and it sucked. Rock couldn't go, and the booking was awful. And then they repeated it a month later, and Rock still couldn't go, and the booking still sucked.
If anything, I think Rock's performances and booking have only made people LESS interested in seeing him at "WrestleMania". He's overexposed now. He's not the special attraction that he was just three months ago. Nobody's anxiously awaiting his big return match, since he hasn't been gone long enough to HAVE a big return match; if "WrestleMania" marked one year since his last match, instead of one month, I think absence would have made the heart grow fonder, that people would be clamoring to see him again.
Instead, we're now at a point where even his biggest fans - the "older" audience that was around for the "Attitude Era" and couldn't wait for him to return and completely outshine Cena - are turning on him. I mean, Rock is still Rock, he hasn't exactly fallen from grace the same way that, say, Scott Hall has, but it is kind of reminding me of KITH's "He's Hip, He's Cool, He's Forty-Five"; he's trying to hold on to the past, and it's getting a bit embarrassing seeing him tell gay jokes and get blown up in five minutes.
Agreed. It's just a giant waste of both Punk AND a streak match. I mean, if the route they were gonna go was "doofus heel with no chance to win steals the urn— watch Mania to see Undertaker kill him", then they might as well have used Cody or Sandow or someone at that level in the match, and put Punk into the Shield match. Would have drawn the same buyrate, and gotten everyone to the same place.
ReplyDeleteHAHAHAHAHA. Now Cena vs Bruce McCullough at Mania, there's a once in a lifetime match.
ReplyDeleteShitsburgh is pretty smart, those fucking yinzers know about some wrestling...
ReplyDeleteI'll give em that.
but still fuck Pittsburgh
I don't disagree, but I believe WWE is trying to make it, and have done so fairly well, so that people pay for WWE itself. I think their idea is that they'd ultimately like to have a self-sustaining machine with totally interchangeable parts that will always keep the machine running.
ReplyDeletekids in the hall?
ReplyDeleteWhat I said to Miko pretty much applies here. I hope it doesn't work and they are forced to go back to a more traditional "wrestling" model because that's when the quality is the best and benefits the consumers the most.
ReplyDeleteI never thought of it like that, but yeah... they're insane. It's almost like guys such as Rock, Brock and even HHH and 'Taker are grandfathered in and allowed to work part time/be over because they were all integral (except Brock since he came around later) in keeping the WWF afloat when it was in the war with WCW and eventually winning that war.
ReplyDeleteBut now that WWE controls everything, they'd rather have all the leverage and don't want anyone else (except Cena) to reach that echelon because if someone bails or winds up being forced to leave because of Wellness violations or something else, it'd force them to have to create a new top character which represents change and a possible risk that the new top star could fail and at this point, WWE is far more content with putting on a lesser product while still making money as opposed to potentially putting on a better product and potentially making more money but also taking a higher risk and possibly losing money.
Eh, not what I'm hearing but it might vary so much week to week that it's tough to tell. Short of counting every Cena shirt that walks into an arena in 2006 and 2013, or surveying every crowd member in random sections we'll probably never know for certain until the boos are overwhelming.
ReplyDeleteIT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU HASHTAG!
ReplyDeleteAnd Cena gets that protection because he's the ultimate "company man": he works hard (but safe), does whatever he's told without complaint, seemingly has no aspirations outside of being the top man in WWE, is camera-ready and media-friendly and mostly scandal-free. Basically, if Vince McMahon could create the perfect sports entertainer in a lab, it would be John Cena.
ReplyDeleteAfter years of dealing with Hogans and Warriors and HBKs and Harts and Austins, I'm sure Vince is now at an age where he doesn't want to deal with the headaches of dealing with larger-than-life egomaniacs and is more than content to make less money with one malleable (if unremarkable) star and a bunch of interchangeable parts.
What the hell is a yinzer?
ReplyDeleteHahaha, this is what I come to this site for.
ReplyDeleteThey did a lot of things wrong with Rock/Punk:
ReplyDeleteFirst, the build. Announcing in JULY that the Rock was randomly getting a title shot at the Royal Rumble in JANUARY was a really dumb move. The Rumble sells out regardless, and it's not like people could order the PPV back in July. Plus, they barely mentioned it again until January rolled out, and when Punk mockingly did a Rock Bottom to Cena at Night of Champions. Plus, the heel turn was really bad, as now WWE has that fan base that not only won't cheer Cena, they won't boo Punk. Punk attacks the Rock, then feuds with Jerry Lawler? Then feuds with a guy half the fan base boos anyway? Then feuds with a giant goof who is pretty much awful (Ryback)? Then suddenly this guy that was taking on all comers needs Heyman in his corner?
Second, the match itself was bad, and that's more the booking than anything. Punk has beaten the Rock visually. Twice. That does a lot to kill his aura with the fans who have never seen the Rock before. They pulled a Starrcade 1997 at the Royal Rumble, with a blown up Rock hardly being able to get his lines out. Then at EC, you have Punk scoring multiple visual pinfalls over the Rock.
And now we're supposed to wonder if the unbeatable John Cena can beat the Rock?
So how's the Middle East, shame that job keeps you from posting.
ReplyDeleteAfter Mania, they really should keep him out of the ring until at LEAST Summerslam.
ReplyDeleteThe fact he might be wrestling at Extreme Rules does nothing for me.
Wait...so they didn't bring in the star of a bunch of kids movies to appeal to a website of 30-year-old's that buy every show regardless?
ReplyDeleteSHOCKED, I say.
Just listen to the pop the PTP'ers got when they said "these people don't want to see you (Cena) at Wrestlemania".
ReplyDeletetldr
ReplyDeleteBret said to Shawn "holla back pimpin"?.
ReplyDeleteNever knew Bret was such a G.
This is the same crowd that chanted U-S-A as Swagger broke some Mexican's ankle right?
ReplyDelete"just there to set up the giantest buyrate ever at Wrestlemania" I really don't see this years sequel topping last years buyrate. I'm not sure why Scott is so convinced this show is going to draw huge (relatively), I reckon it may score under a million this time, there is just no buzz this time around unlike last year. This Mania is actually looking really depressing and predictable, even for casual fans, I know a few of mates who bought it last year aren't bothering this time around.
ReplyDeleteThank you for trolling.
ReplyDeleteNot sure what your point with that was. Most people here aren't saying they didn't want to see The Rock brought back—— just that the way he's been used has been pretty underwhelming.
ReplyDeleteAlso, it's pretty ridiculous to argue that Rock was only brought back to appeal to a kids audience. (Especially when his return has coincided with his movie career shifting directly towards action movies geared at the "older" audience.) Rock coming back at Mania 27 was definitely aimed at getting fans from his wrestling generation to order the show, since Mania 26 had already been a buyrate disappointment and Mania 27 headlined by Cena vs Miz would have absolutely bombed. Do they want Rock to bring in audience from his Disney movies? Of course. But they're also using him to appeal to the older audience that has dropped off in the last decade.
The point, missed it you have.
ReplyDeleteI know 4 or 5 casual WWE fans who usually buy Mania and the occasional random PPV if the card is stacked, none of them are buying it this time... I personally see this being a common trend and there is no 'buzz' like last year and the card is extremely bland and predictable. I think they'll draw under a million buys this time, but of course I could be wrong.
ReplyDeleteYup. 100% agreed. Sucks for us but it's how just how things are now. The biz has changed.
ReplyDeleteSo Pittsburgh is a smark town too? Which cities are fair representations of the mainstream WWE audience? This wasn't Cena getting booed in NYC or Chicago or Toronto.
ReplyDeleteAlso, who knows what that USA chant was about, considering how weirdly the Swagger-Del Rio story has gone. Del Rio has been saying he also represents America, after all.
KEEP WATCHING.
ReplyDeleteEXACTLY. The PTPers were out there acting like complete dorks, basically begging for go away heat. And the crowd STILL responded to them when they trashed Cena.
ReplyDeleteThe way he's being used is underwhelming to this site, we can't make any judgements on how it's being perceived by anyone outside of this site that will, as I said, buy every show and watch every Monday anyway.
ReplyDeleteVince is one of the luckiest businessmen ever, he's got a whole audience that are powerless to walk away from his product no matter how good or bad he chooses to make it. Why work harder than you have to?
They also chanted USA when Swagger beat up a Mexican...so I guess for the purposes of complaining about Cena we're going to pretend that they're only a "smart" crowd in certain segments...
ReplyDeleteWhat a great point!
ReplyDeleteRead my post into why I thought the Rock's return was underwhelming. It has less to do with his performance and more to do with the way his matches were being booked.
ReplyDeleteAnd announcing his match at the Royal Rumble six months in advance.
Dude, the issue here isn't whether the wrestling super nerds who post on a message board about wrestling are going to continue watching wrestling or not. You're right, we specifically will continue watching wrestling. No shit.
ReplyDeleteBut it's crazy to think that the opinions expressed by the people here ONLY pertain to us. Just because we on this board feel that Cena has grown unbearable and his popularity has declined, or that the Punk heel turn was a bad move, or that it's dumb that they've buried all their new stars in favor of HHH/Taker/Rock etc, and yet WE still continue to watch—— that doesn't mean that these are not actual problems that are turning off the more casual audience. The people on this board will end up sticking with WWE despite some shitty booking because we are the most hooked on wrestling.
But that doesn't mean that these shitty moves aren't turning off a large part of their mainstream audience. Hey, maybe SuperFace Cena vs a gaggle of neutered heels will break TV rating and PPV records month after month in 2013. Maybe Cena-Rock and RematchMania will break 1.3 million buys. But we doubt it.
And also, what's the point of coming to a site just to annoyingly write "KEEP WATCHING" or "THATS WHY I COME HERE"? It's totally cool if you disagree with posters and want to engage in a give and take. But trollish shit like that just seems pointless, to me.
Just saying, I don't think we get to use "see! it finally happened Cena got booed in a mark town!" while they were clearly smarking it up all night.
ReplyDeleteI don't know what the solution to Cena is, but I do know based on a few years of giggling at the hate on this site that complaining about it while continuing to watch the show is going to accomplish exactly nothing.
And that's the real goof, no one can stop themselves. That's what makes this so much fun. When I go to my UFC forum I see lots of former wrestling fans that have fond memories of the product because they chose to leave when it didn't appeal to them anymore. They're former fans. Former. It can be done.
I'd be bitter too if I was forcing myself to watch a show I didn't like in the hopes that some day it becomes exactly the same and exactly as entertaining as it was when I was a child.
And that's not to you personally, just a general overview of most of the people here. Protip: Childhood isn't coming back, might be time to move on lol.
It's really really fun. That's why. Unbelievably fun.
ReplyDelete"that are powerless to walk away..."
ReplyDeleteOr so you (and Vince) think. That can ALWAYS change, especially in today's world.
I don't think they "only" pertain to this site, but the percentage isn't far off from 100. Most people that watch this nonsense don't spend all week ripping it apart and deciding which portion of it they disliked the most.
ReplyDeleteOf course there are actual problems, and hey if there wasn't, you can be damned sure these posters will come up with some.
Prove it.
ReplyDeleteThey wouldn't need The Rock as their potential cash cow in the first place if they had just *gasp* BUILT NEW FUCKING STARS!! Instead of, you know, squashing the sumbitches whenever they gained the least bit of momentum, ie. Zack Ryder, Dolph Ziggler. Now they have to continue to rely on The Rock, The Undertaker, Triple H, Brock Lesnar. Wrestlemania 50 is going to be headlined by John Cena FINALLY getting a crack at the Undertaker's streak. Who's buying?
ReplyDeleteIs being racist (which, if the USA chants were pro-Swagger, is what those chants would support) a typically smart reaction? I just think that's pretty weak evidence for labeling Monday's crowd an all-smark audience. And comparing the anti-Cena reaction on Monday to the "USA" chants isn't even close in how prominent they were.
ReplyDeleteAgain, which towns do we have to disqualify for being smark-towns, and which are an accurate barometer of the mainstream audience?
And aside from that, do you completely disagree that the "mixed" reactions for Cena have gotten more pronounced in the last few years? I'm not someone who was yelling "Turn Cena Heel!" back at Wrestlemania 22 against HHH. Hell, I thought they should have put the belt right back on cena when he came back from injury at Mania 24, and ridden him as the champ face for a few more years.
But the crowd reactions of the last year or two are not those.
You think the entire crowd chanting what they specifically weren't supposed to chant is a poor example of the crowd being smart...lol.
ReplyDeleteWelp, there's really no argument against that.
Best part will be when they finally turn him heel and all the adults that want to cheer for him finally get to cheer for him, and all the kids will start booing...he'll...wait for it....STILL get mixed reactions!
It's hard to book for kids that you want and adults that won't go away.
The house show I went to at MSG in December saw Cena get a huge pop when he came out. It may just be a difference between house shows and TV.
ReplyDeleteAnd if I could give this more than a +1, I would.
ReplyDeleteFor the record GC, the only Raw I watched this year was the Old School one, and I can't even remember the last PPV I watched, much less paid for. I'm fairly sure it was before Benoit's death though.
I HAVE, however, spent money on WWE stuff. History of the WWF and IC titles, Flair's two collections, 4 Horsemen collection, and a couple more I can't remember off hand.
The point of all that is, I'd LIKE to spend more money than I do on wrestling. There's just nothing solid enough for me to do so on, my own cable issues aside.
ReplyDeleteAnd if TNA manages to recapture more than some of my interest (they're borderline at the moment), I'd spend it on them before one cent would go in McMahon's pocket at the moment.
You need a new hobby then. You don't want to become that dad your kids look at with disdain when they become teenagers.
ReplyDeleteWell to your point about leaving, I'll speak for myself only, though it might pertain to others here: I definitely don't feel like I'm torturing myself by watching the product. For the most part, I still enjoy the TV and the PPVs a great deal. I think the frustration I express here is just how much more awesome it could be, especially considering all the awesome pieces they have. The talent roster, in terms of in-ring ability and promo skills, is fucking STACKED. I mean, take the roster now and compare it to the mid-2000s, when the supposed breakout talent were guys like Mr. Kennedy and MVP, and it's not even close. Plus Brock is back! And Rock! Holy shit, this should be awesome and fresh and new, and it keeps coming sorta close to that...and then they job out all the new guys and ride SuperCena into his 10th year on top.
ReplyDeleteSo it's not like I'm sitting here hating on everything and cutting myself. Again, I still would rather watch current WWE than not watch it. But I just feel like there's so much crazy shit wrong they're doing that keep the product from being amazing.
As for the Pittsburg crod thing, we'll have to agree to disagree. I really don't think that was a smark crowd, and I don't think the "USA" thing is evidence of them acting smarky all night. And again, aside from them, I think there's evidence every week of Cena's popularity amongst mainstream fans lessening. The reactions to 2006-2010 Cena do not sound the same to, well, basically post-"Rock promo in February 2011" Cena.
It has nothing to do with childhood.
ReplyDeleteThe Attitude Era is STILL entertaining. Does it have some dark spots? Sure. But I'm watching through it for the first time (I stopped watching in 1996 and didn't start again until January of 2000), and this stuff is good, it's engaging, it leaves me with a "what's going to happen next!" feeling that today's shows really don't.
Well, your bar for fun must be set pretty low then.
ReplyDeleteIt's already been proven. See my personal example above.
ReplyDelete(Adding to the above) I watched wrestling WEEKLY for about 20 years, BOTH WWF and WCW. Walked away shortly after Benoit's death, and I'd estimate my wrestling watching since 2009 at under 25 hours. Total.
The only reason I even know who 95% of today's WWE wrestlers are is from here.
Not at all, watching people thrash around when the solution to their problem is patently obvious is hilarious. People love watching Intervention.
ReplyDeleteYawn.
ReplyDeleteNo, it's not. Kids are EASY to book for.
ReplyDelete"Hey, like this guy." "YAYYY!"
"Hey, hate this guy." "BOOOO!"
Adults on the other hand... well, some/most of us DON'T exactly like going along with the "gameplan".
You actually prove my point. You don't even give a shit about the show anymore and yet are compelled to keep up with the goings on, waiting for that moment when you get to come back.
ReplyDeleteYou're like a dry drunk.
That's kind of what I meant though, the kids are easy. And the kids are who they want. The only fans they want. They've made that abundantly clear.
ReplyDeleteThe adults make it hard, which is why they have no desire for them to be fans. They don't want smart fans.
Well, then we will continue to have UNBELIEVABLE amounts of fun visiting a site filled with comments that you hate, yet continue to come back for more. The circle of self-torture.
ReplyDeleteHoly shit, this is fun!
Zzzzzzzz.....
ReplyDeleteWho says I hate these comments? I love these comments.
ReplyDeleteWatching you guys flail waiting for another Attitude when Vince has said, flat out, that he doesn't want you as fans is hilarious. I don't hate it at all.
I get sleepy when people try to pretend that my kids would somehow judge me over something I spend maybe 10 or 20 minutes a week doing online. Are they going to judge me for going to Reddit too?
ReplyDeleteFucking retarded.
Which is why Mania is booked year after year around main eventers whose popularity comes from the late 90s and early 2000s. When it comes time to make the serious money, they absolutely cater to the older fans.
ReplyDeleteI hope Rock & Cena get booed out of the building when after the match they initiate the hug of doom.
ReplyDeleteSomehow I get the feeling WWE creative think if Rock says Cena is cool he won't be booed anymore, somehow they have no clue what character development means anymore.
As I said, they need to make the choice and one direction or another. The attempting to please older fans at the expense of the next generation isn't helping anyone.
ReplyDeleteGood news though!!! Even if you bring back someone from Attitude to appeal to those adults...this website will still bitch. Whew. Dodged that bullet I was worried for a second.
And the people who watch Raw for the sole purpose of hanging out on this message board shitting on Miz and making snarky jokes about the product, they're having fun in the same way.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the idea that Vince isn't constantly trying to get the older fans when his big shows basically revolve around nostalgia booking is pretty laughable.
And that aside, I'd argue that the majority of this board isn't begging from a return to the Attitude Era. We're not asking for TV-MA shows or sexual innuendo. Hell, we're not the ones asking for Rock as the champ. The general consensus of this board would probably be to build fresh new stars and book around them, rather than rehash the same 5 guys every year.
Honestly, I think it's the parents crowd that takes their kids to house shows. I've never gone to one myself, never felt the need to.
ReplyDelete10 to 20 minutes?
ReplyDeletePlease, at one point you were the top commenter on this site.
Mmmhmm, a year ago. And now I'm not anywhere close...so that's pretty good evidence of what..
ReplyDeleteGo ahead.
Averages. You should look up how they work between bouts of complaining about a show you can't stop watching.
ReplyDeleteYou're right, the negativity in every single thread about every aspect of the company is actually fans enjoying the product! That's why they swear they'll never watch again and then return every single week like kicked dogs. Makes perfect sense.
ReplyDeleteThough I admit the live threads are fun, watching people hate and complain live is always going to be better than reading it from hours ago.
Four letters, it's all he has to do to get a response from 8 people. Hahaha.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I know how averages work, and from what I can tell, you've been here for about an hour today complaining about people complaining.
ReplyDeleteSomeone's wasting their time here. I'll give you a hint who.
That you don't watch the show, yet come on here and complain about the people that do?
ReplyDeleteYou should join Dougie and buckdiddy's 50 Shades of Grey book club.
Hmm...well then why did you say the patently stupid thing you said if you know how they work?
ReplyDeleteSee ya next week for more cunting like a bitch, don't go disappointing me Mar. I expect at least 50 posts about how awful the product is before I get back.
Again, your idea of unbelievable amounts of fun is to spend hours reading a message board filled with opinions that you disagree with.
ReplyDeleteYou're not in a position to look down at anyone, dude. (Which is what every single one of your posts in this thread is about.) You are simply defending the life of an internet troll.
And that said, you're the one coming here and making it personal (as personal as this could be, since in the end who gives a shit about any of this nonsense) by picking online fights with other people. We're sitting around commenting on (or critiquing, or complaining about) a TV show. You're picking fights with people commenting on a TV show. So if you want to judge people on the ridiculousness scale, I'd say the former is more ridiculous.
Anyway, whatever. We have different opinions on wrestling. You and your kids love Cena, the majority of this board doesn't. Whatever, who cares. I'll enjoy Raw next week, you enjoy the live thread. Later!
I watch the show. Who said I didn't?
ReplyDeleteOooooh....it's not obvious that I watch it because I don't come every week into the thread to complain about it. No wonder. I should get on that, be part of the whine like a fetid cunt about a show I can't walk away from club.
You don't talk about the shows. At all. You just come on here and complain about people that do.
ReplyDeleteInstead of doing that, maybe you should tell people what you did like? You know, open up a discussion? Instead, you're no better than Dougie.
And where did I ever say the product is awful? I just point out the occasional inconsistencies that the shows have, or genuinely awful things that appear.
ReplyDeleteI actually enjoyed parts of this episode for what it was. I'm enjoying the Shield, the dynamic between the team facing them at Mania, I'm enjoying Jericho, I'm enjoying guys like Cesaro, Rhodes, and Sandow, I'm enjoying Mark Henry, I enjoyed Punk and Taker's promo, I'm enjoying that the WWE Title is being put on the pedestal it deserves, even if the champion hasn't been seen in two weeks. Hell, I'm enjoying the Rock.
The rest is shit though, the wrestling is great, but the storytelling is close to being awful. Hell, McMahon being revealed as the Higher Power made more sense than some of this stuff.
I still like WRESTLING. You know, what this site (and WWE years ago) is mainly built around?
ReplyDeleteIf Vince/Steph/HHH want to keep "Sports Entertainment" front and center, and ignore the WRESTLING as much as they can, why should I support them? As much crap as TNA pulls, at least they TRY, more often than not, to make the WRESTLING the key.
WWE could die tomorrow, and WRESTLING would still, somehow, survive.
Most people here aren't saying they didn't want to see The Rock brought
ReplyDeleteback—— just that the way he's been used has been pretty underwhelming.
I'm saying I didn't want to see him brought back.
And I am the Everyman.
I'll give it two more weeks... right now I'm antsy about my 1.18M prediction, but not gonna kill it yet.
ReplyDeleteit's not like people could order the PPV back in July.
ReplyDeleteDunno what you're talking about, but in July I took Mean Gene's advice and made THAT ALL IMPORTANT PHONE CALL to my local cable company operator to make sure that I DIDN'T MISS OUT on enjoying all of the action and excitement of the annual Royal Rumble straight from the comfort of my own living room.
I think it would be more interesting to name the feuds that actually lived up to the hype that preceded them happening.
ReplyDeleteBut what if I really like the talent that has debuted, and I just want them to be book competently as other stars in the past have been booked? I'm not asking for miracles and I'm not asking for things to go back to the AE, I just want to see the wrestling promotion do its job and promote the talent it has.
ReplyDeleteI want the company to do what it's supposed to do, I want it to build for the future, whatever that future may be. How is that bitter?
Sting vs. Hogan
ReplyDeletehow much?
ReplyDeleteBless your heart for taking the time and energy to respond to this idiot troll, who - wrestling opinions aside - weirdly keeps using terms "cunt" like he's in 7th grade and trying to impress some older boys.
ReplyDeleteIts a Pittsburgh colloquialism. It started as a short for "you guys" so instead of "you guys" people would say "yinz" predominately in Pittsburgh so 'burghers started being called "yinzers"
ReplyDeleteDid you even watch the show this week? Or did you just post 35 times without watching like last week?
ReplyDeleteOK, gotcha.
ReplyDeleteDo you ever watch the show?
ReplyDeleteYou know, it's your use of the word "cunt" that I'm most impressed by. Not everyone can work blue like this and make it seem so fresh.
ReplyDeletePooniverse makes me think of Poontang not Poop... just saying
ReplyDeleteBless your heart.
ReplyDeleteEvery week.
ReplyDeletePlease start documenting these comments. And since you have so much time on your hands to argue about something you're allegedly dispassionate about, you can probably go sift through the archives to find it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, there's a huge disconnect in your argument. You say that this blog isn't representative of what the WWE's viewing audience thinks, but you also extrapolate the number of people who say they can't quit watching to an absurd length. It has to be one or the other.
Shouldn't you be watching something more popular?
ReplyDeleteNot all responses are good responses in a comments section with downvoting.
ReplyDeleteReally? What did you like about it? What didn't you like? Join the discussion!
ReplyDelete"The way he's being used is underwhelming to this site, we can't make any judgements on how it's being perceived by anyone outside of this site that will, as I said, buy every show and watch every Monday anyway."
ReplyDeleteSince the ratings are static from a year ago and down a good chunk from two years ago, I'd say it's underwhelming to those other viewers, too.
You really should try and get over not being able to find a date for the prom.
ReplyDeleteSwing and a miss.
ReplyDeleteSlow web design day. My brain's been fried between trying to learn Ruby and doing some sites for a client, so I opted to debate nonsense instead.
ReplyDeleteI really wish I knew where in the world this "biggest buyrate ever" speculation is coming from.
ReplyDeleteYes, it will be the biggest money show of all-time in terms of live gate, and a good buyrate will only solidify its status as an all-time moneymaker. But I don't know how that necessarily equates to "biggest buyrate of all-time." I can see the logic that would lead one to that assumption, but I don't understand the dogged persistence of the opinion that this is going to be the record breaker.
And I don't mean this facetiously or confrontationally. I'm genuinely puzzled as to where this talk is coming from. Sure, it'll do WELL over a million buys, but this build kills the possibility of a record-breaker by the week (and build does matter, otherwise I doubt WM23 would have been the record-holder at all).
Mania XXVI was the day after a UFC ppv.
ReplyDeleteespecially with Vince (if there is ANY truth to all those backstage reports) going more crazy each week.
ReplyDeleteYeesh probably 99.95.
ReplyDeleteat least I know I am not buying it (unlike last year).
ReplyDeletebecause there might be a "breaking point" at which those people actually decide to not watch anymore.
ReplyDeleteprime example: the people that watched WCW but didn't come back to watch the Invasion. a whole chunk of audience. just gone.
suckkkkkkkkkkkkk it
ReplyDelete925K! 925K! 925K!
ReplyDeleteAdd a 1 at the beginning.
ReplyDeleteI was dead set on buying the show this year, even after the grossly disappointing Royal Rumble PPV. But as it draws closer, nothing is drawing me in. Not even Punk/Taker, which I thought I'd be excited about but it was set up and has played out extremely uninteresting. Hell, I'm almost more excited for Ryback/Henry than any of the main events. None of these "feuds" are compelling in any way, and we've seen all of the matches before. Most of us could probably map out each of these matches and give ratings right now.
ReplyDeleteThat would've been better, honestly. Making Punk team with the Shield in a power stable would give Punk some actual threat, and I think Sandow could actually benefit a lot from just hanging in their with the Undertaker. Give him 15 minutes and he'll end the match with more credibility than when he started.
ReplyDeletelol I wish.. I remember the day of Starcade for that match I was SOO excited.. I invited all my buddies over, and even us were like WTF at the finish of that match, and we were 12 year olds! The Superbrwal Match was alot better in terms of quality and in ring story imo with the Nick Patrcik angle finally coming full circle, and Randy Savage finally getting one over on the Hulk. Plus tghat card had one of my fav moments ever Jericho Unmasking Juventud! Jericho could do no wrong in 1998 and thats a universal FACT!
ReplyDeleteThe feud leading to the match was excellent... the match and aftermath was the disaster...
ReplyDeleteAs long as the kids ages 5-12 and women of all ages think Cena is cool, it's money in the coffers
ReplyDeleteughh and that nitro following startcade where Tony screams "WHERE OUTTA TIME, WE GOTTA GO!!!!!!!!!!!!". I threw my remote in sheer disguist and flipped on Raw to see DX wearing man thongs which was a rather odd transition if you ask me.
ReplyDeleteI don't make any judgments on how the larger audience views anything. All I do is have my own opinions on it. If they line up with the larger audience? Cool. If they don't, well they are my opinions nonetheless.
ReplyDeleteAll the times I've seen him post I don't think he's ever commented on what he likes or dislikes.
ReplyDeleteI predict PPV will be somewhere in the vicinity of $200 in 2034. But if you submit a copy fo your cable bill, you'll also receive replica John Cena dog tags. Because he'll still be wearing them in 2034. Because he'll be stale then also.
ReplyDeletePeople really still think its bad that Punk turned heel? The guys been giving some of the best heel promos of his life, and better than anyones we've seen in years. I didn't hate him as a face but something was missing there, now he's in top form.
ReplyDeleteFrom a positioning standpoint, he HAD to turn heel. He was never going to be the #1 face with Cena there, but he could certainly be the #1 heel.
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree with you, he's a lot freer as a heel. He was in a tough position as a face because when he complained about being held down, he risked coming across as whiny (I didn't think so, but many others did). On top of that, it was all backstage stuff that the general audience was unaware of. Punk would complain about being held down....all while being the WWE Champion and one of the faces of the company. As a heel he can complain and not worry about how he comes across.
Only thing I hated about the first Punk/Rock match was the finish that pretty much soured the overall match for me was Rock ending a 400+ day title reign with a friggin' elbowdrop. I wish Punk would've spoke up against that finish.
ReplyDeleteI hope you don't miss the irony in coming onto this board to complain about others' negativity, all the while never posting anything positive or useful yourself. Seriously, how tedious.
ReplyDeleteYou realise WWE ratings are (outside of 'Mania season) down a full point or more over where they were just a few years ago? People, clearly, are turning off. In droves.
ReplyDeleteThis is what put TV wrestling into its most recent exile with me. Dream matches are pretty much dead in this day and age, so when I found myself not giving a shit about Punk, Rock I just couldn't see how it was ever going to be worth watching ever again.
ReplyDeleteAnd of course anyone who posts on this site ONLY posts on this site and has no outside life that doesn't involve wrestling, as that is a luxury only you are wise enough to embrace, Great Child-Rearing Braggard. The idea of going onto a wrestling forum and complaining (or mocking) people for discussing wrestling is like walking into a Library and complaining about all the books. And to act as if nobody is ever positive when that's patently untrue (there are threads dedicated to great matches EVERY DAY) is disingenuous at best.
ReplyDeleteHaha, I can't believe I'm responding to a troll who uses the word "Cunt" while trying to claim some kind of superiority over others. I weep for your children.
Anyone who is mad they turned Punk heel is a mark, IMO. An excellent litmus test.
ReplyDeleteI think turning them when they did was a bad idea, especially when he was the only face on the roster getting unanimously cheered.
ReplyDeleteHe hits Rock with a GTS... and we don't Rock for another six months. And then we watch them fumble trying to make Punk a heel by berating Jerry Lawler, demanding respect, all while the crowd sat on their hands until they gave Punk Paul Heyman as a manager, and even that felt forced.
Everything they did with Punk up until the Rock match could have been done with him as a face. Even the Ryback feud.
can't you guys just relax and mark out for once?
ReplyDeleteFor the most part its cool,
ReplyDeleteNo sex or alcohol is a sacrifice for what Im making, but in the end its for a good cause
My bank account.
I was thinking about that earlier. This is WWE's last ditch attempt to get the 18-34's to think Cena is cool is if Rock, an Attitude era icon, says it.
ReplyDeleteHowever I don't think we get the Hug Of Doom until after XXX.
If buy every show= illegally stream, you have a point.
ReplyDeleteShhh... That guy doesn't get it.
ReplyDeleteThis is 10.0 trolling folks.
ReplyDeleteDougie takes some fucking notes, you HAS BEEN!
Dont make ChinChan do anything to prove himself.
ReplyDeleteHis head might explode like in "Scanners"
Its ChinChan and his kids.
ReplyDeleteWhat other fun does he have?
How's life?
ReplyDeleteSeriously?
It can't be going that great for you these days.
I agree some on this blog are like battered wives coming back to their abusive husband, but for you to actually make a point to read it LIVE instead of hours ago, reeks of nothing to do.
So instead of enjoying the product with your kids as you have vehemently stated millions of times, you now enjoy reading men of all ages bitch and complain about a product.
This is your enjoyment.
This is what you are looking for!
Not interesting convo between bloggers.
Just reading and laughing at grown men bitch and complain about wrestling.
Who's sadder? the people who bitch and complain or the one who reads the bitching and complaining?
You can not be serious about this! Do you have another hobby? Card-collecting? clipping newspaper articles? Hanging with your kids?!
I can not make this shit up.
"He who bitches about the bitches, is a bitch himself."
ReplyDeleteThere's no chance for them ever getting another star as big as Austin but I do agree they could be able to get someone almost to a Rock level if they put in the effort to do so.
ReplyDeleteThat's some quality trollin' right there.
ReplyDelete10.0
Exxxxxxactly!!! Heel punk is historically great, face punk is good in the ring but bland as a character.
ReplyDeletePaul bearer impression <<<<< "hey Jericho I passed my breathalyzer"
Proverbs 45:17?
ReplyDeleteChinwins can definitely bump up the comment count on a thread.
ReplyDeleteSuperBrawl 8 was like the last great WCW cards top to bottom.
ReplyDeleteThe first four matches rocked IMO.
Rick Martel was bringing it... in 1998, thats scary.
Jericho/Juvy
Saturn/Booker/Martel
The Steiner turn
DDP/Benoit IIRC
Great card
Your use of "whine like a fetid cunt" made me laugh so friggin' hard. I needed that.
ReplyDeleteI jsut cant believe that hes getting blown up minutes into his matches. Cena's going to have to do a hell of a carry job in that main event. Because if Punk could barely do it, I dont know if John boy can, but he's going to have to in fron tof the biggest audience they get for a whole year.
ReplyDeleteGoldust 2:19
ReplyDeleteCall me a mark, but I have to disagree - whether or not some of his jokes were lame (such as referring to Johnny Ace as "Snicklefritz" or whatever), people wanted to see him as the stand-up, fighting champion that wasn't afraid to speak his mind. Turning him into a whiny heel that runs away from fights - and subsequently jobbing cleanly to Rock and Cena - is NOT what people wanted to see.
ReplyDeleteIt's not even about "heel" or "face", since he was/is an outspoken douche either way, and a very good one at that. Fans want to cheer him, they ARE cheering him, so why try to mold him into something else? Why make him a loudmouth heel that runs from fights, when he could just as easily be a loudmouth face that backs it up?
Oh no, I'm not saying that if you liked face Punk you're a mark. Or even if you were *disappointed* that he turned. It's the actual visceral *anger* that's often displayed over his turn that I think is a sure sign of markiness.
ReplyDeleteBut to be totally honest, I wrote that comment when I was half-drunk and trying to be provocative. I think I just like calling people marks. I'm kind of a dick.
Where are you, exactly?
ReplyDeleteTHE HELMAND PROVINCE
ReplyDeleteWhere the hell is that?
ReplyDeletelook it up jaybrone.
ReplyDeleteyou got the whole world underneath your fingertips.
and if you that, look up "OPSEC" afterwards
Damn man, I thought you were in Dubai or something, not fucking Afghanistan. Stay safe, man.
ReplyDeleteOne other thing: What's you beef with Pittsburgh? I feel like there's an entertaining story behind that.
ReplyDelete#BIFC
ReplyDelete