Greetings Scott from a midcarder on the Blog,
Opinion question. I've heard arguments a lot of times that too many black guys haven't gotten fair shakes or that "Vince doesn't make black guys world champion" So I'm wondering What black wrestler do you think could have been a bigger star but didn't for whatever reason? Oh I should probably mention Fuj as well. He said that'd help my question get answered.
He says a lot of stuff.
I don't think Vince is particularly against black wrestlers. Hell, look at how many are populating the midcard right now. Bad News Brown got a pretty huge push for someone who should have been a one-and-done Hogan conquest, although again he was 10 years before his time anyway. But Booker T is going into the Hall of Fame, and Ron Simmons already did so I don't know what more they could have gotten from WWE. Pancake Patterson is also clearly bound for a main event push and Hall as well.
Pancake Patterson?
ReplyDeleteTony Atlas COULD have been a huge megastar. He definitely had the look and enough charisma/talent/etc... he just also had a little issue with "the REALLY good stuff".
ReplyDeleteAhmed Johnson was the original Goldberg and could have been WWF champ but was too injury prone.
ReplyDeleteIf today's Mark Henry existed 10-15 years ago, he could have easily been a multi-time world champ (No WWECW champ doesn't count).
Titus O'neil is disguise.
ReplyDelete+1 Ahmed. Only Magnum TA had worse luck than him.
ReplyDeleteCan we re-visit this question in a year if Kofi Kingston gets that rumored heel turn?
ReplyDeleteIf the idea wasn't to push Ahmed to the moon, they wouldn't have debuted him by having him bodyslam Yokozuna, which was a HUGE deal at the time. It really is too bad that Ahmed couldn't hold his body together, because he was destined to be a big star.
ReplyDeleteIt's so crazy how fast Ahmed fell. He was pretty freaking cool when I first started watching
ReplyDeleteYeah he was a beast. Unfortunately he started talking and injuries caught up to him.
ReplyDeleteNation of Domination with a heel Kofi could create a new megastar imo. But the guy needs to get cocky on the mic ala Rocky
ReplyDeleteI see Kofi mentioned a lot but I honestly don't think he has the talent, drive, or desire to be a star. He has the same decent mid card match every time out, has never shown much on the mic, and seems perfectly content to be a mid carder and not advance.
ReplyDeleteNow you're being ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteBobby Lashley, another black guy who they were pushing to the moon, but didn'y have the staying power, liek Ahmed Johnson, he could have been huge.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry but you can accuse McMahon of a lot of things, but he's never come across as racist.
It's ironic, because Ahmed now looks like Yokozuna.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with Lashley is that he didn't have the passion for the business. In fact you could argue that he is the reason why the WWE is so hesitant to push their midcarders to the next level.
ReplyDeleteI think the overlying point is that a black man has never held the WWE Title. The closest we get to that is the Rock, who's half, but it was something they never promoted.
ReplyDeleteOr was it Darren as Pancake? I'm sorry THOSE people all look the same to me.
ReplyDeleteIt'll happen. Especially in this day and age of title switches like nobodies business. Looking at their current roster Mark Henry seems like the most possible guy to do it.
ReplyDeleteHowever, they have had latino WWF/Echamps (rey, del rio, pedro morales, eddie), middle east (iron sheik), asian (yokozuna, batista), and even parts unknown (Ultimate warrior)
ReplyDeleteIt counts tho. I mean, if Barack gets the credit, so does Rock.
ReplyDeleteIf Kofi Kingston was white he'd get a better deal than he has received so far by the E. I just think McMahon prefers white, not that he hates blacks just he'd choose Caucasian over African American. I think if Ahmed Johnson wasn't injury prone and Bobby Lashley stayed with the WWE they both of been WWE champion. It's crazy to think their hasn't been one 100% American African as WWE champ.
ReplyDeleteIt's his pecs, I'm telling you. Vince doesn't like his pecs.
ReplyDeleteAnd then he ate Clarence Mason.
ReplyDeleteAlmost all the African-Americans that could've been main-eventers were undone by something other than backstage politics.
ReplyDeleteAhmed Johnson = Injury Prone
Tony Atlas = Drugs
Bobby Lashley = Lack of desire
Mark Henry = Injury Prone (but still good for a short run at the top)
Ron Simmons = Past his prime (and his run as WCW Champion only proved he probably wasn't main event material)
Who does that leave? Rocky Johnson? Were they seriously going to push him over Hogan in the 1980s? Mabel/Viscera? He got way more mileage out of his WWE career that most men with his size and (lack of) ability. Really, the only one I can make a case for being held down by backstage politics was Booker T. But RVD, Goldberg, the Hurricane and several others fell victim to the same politcs, so it wasn't really race-based politics.
Ahmed Johnson seems like a guy who could have been a bigger deal but in retrospect he was pushed as far as he could have gone seeing how sloppy, and injury prone he was. He sucked on the mic but its hard to hold that against him since his promos were always over
ReplyDeleteBooker was just one in a long list on Raw from 2002-2003
ReplyDeleteI REALLY wanted Shelton Benjamin to get to that next level but it wasn't due to the bookers. He just couldn't get to that next level. If only they could have had MITB ladder matches every week.
ReplyDeleteI think it's similar to how the NFL doesn't have a lot of black head coaches and it's because there aren't a lot of high ranking executives that are black. You need a champion in the office to push forward and you can say that you should push the best person available at all times and I agree with that, but having a black person in creative who can market a black athlete properly and champion for a continued push would help. I mean, why the PTP haven't had a run with the tag belts and Titus O'Neil hasn't had a "weekly talk show" (get rid of Miz TV already) is baffling to me.
ReplyDeleteBooker had a hell of a run at the end of WCW but they didn't really have a choice. No one else was any good.
ReplyDeleteLOL@Parts Unknown!
ReplyDeleteNEVER come across as racist?
ReplyDeleteHow about Slick's fried chicken music video? Cryme Tyme? Muhammed Hassan? Saba Simba? HHH's comments about Booker's people never good enough to be world champ? Roddy Piper's half-white/half-black make-up at WM6? The Headshrinkers trying to get "civilized"? Bobby Heenan taking shots about Tito Santana's heritage during matches?
Ohhhhhhhh! I forgot about that. I though Pancake Patterson was a nickname Scott had for Kofi or something.
ReplyDeleteAll valid examples, but I'll play devil's advocate for the hell of it.
ReplyDeleteIsn't McMahon an equal opportunity offender? There's been plenty of hillbilly rednecks with incest overtones over the years too. I think this is more a problem with the wrestling carney mentality than with McMahon.
Batista is Asian?
ReplyDeleteHaha I legit did the same. Really nice touch.
ReplyDeleteI also don't think Vince is particularly anti-black wrestlers. I think the better question to ask isn't which black wrestlers could (should) have been pushed more, but whether or not if any particular black wrestlers were white, would they have been pushed more?
ReplyDeleteYes, he is half-filipino and half-Greek, which means he has to decide whether to dance in a circle or a line at family functions.
ReplyDeleteOpa!
ReplyDeleteBut that was actually planned for a while. He made his way from the TV title to the US title, to losing to Lex Luger in "spotlight" matches, then finally the push to the top.
ReplyDeleteWhat's not to like?
ReplyDeleteWell, Yokozuna is actually Samoan.
ReplyDeleteHuh... I always figured he was Cuban just because of the name.
ReplyDeleteThis is missing a great deal of Jesse Ventura "buckwheat" comments.
ReplyDeleteIf Pancake Patterson doesn't make the hall of fame, then the terrorists have already won.
ReplyDeleteJunkyard Dog was the #2 guy in the company for about a year, until he stopped giving a fuck and just started collecting a paycheck. Hmmm..makes me think if he stopped giving a fuck because he knew they weren't going to give him a title with Hogan at the top. But he was over with the white and black folk. I have to laugh when he would bring little kids into the ring to dance with him, because there was always one white kid who just couldn't buckle those knees, while the black kids were breakdancing and shit.
ReplyDeleteI would have to disagree......what about Vince McMahon using the N-word.....or the Slick/fried chicken music video.....or the entire Triple H-Booker T feud from 2003....what about some of those early Dr. D David Shultz promos? or Tony Atlas coming back as Sabba simba????? Or Roddy Piper being allowed to paint himself half black? Come on now
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry THOSE people* all look the same to me.
ReplyDelete*guys stuck in a tag team when there's no tag team division
Pat's nickname for what boys do to him.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny, but there had been rumblings and calls for Booker to get pushed for real around the time the whole GI Bro mess went down, calls for him to be given the title.
ReplyDeleteSo for some reason, at the beginning of BatB 2000, I joked that Booker would somehow be walking out of the PPV with the world title. At the end of the PPV, I was all like, "I HAVE THE POWER!"
The Fuj is a Duj.
ReplyDeleteYou heard it here first.
There aren't a lot of black coaches right now because there aren't many currently good ones. Even Mike Tomlin was gifted Bill Cower's dream team. The second another Tony Dungy emerges, a team will hire him. Winning is everything in the NFL and sports in general.
ReplyDeleteThe only color that matters to promoters is green. Also Rock is half black, one of the top 5 biggest wrestlers ever.
ReplyDeleteWorse than the black & white look with Piper was some of the stuff he said about Mr. T: "he's the only guy who wears more chains than his ancestors."
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly what I was going to say. McMahon more plays into stereotypes than he is actually a racist.
ReplyDeleteSpain colonized the Philippines back in the day so there's still spanish names that survived.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know if there are good ones or bad ones when most don't get a chance? I want to be clear that I am not an affirmitive action proponent, but when the same old coaches get recycled and black coaches, who make up 80-85% of the league get passed up, something is off. BTW, as a Steelers fan, Tomlin was gifted a team just like Cower was. The Steelers front office is one of the best.
ReplyDeleteBooker had the WHC back when that wasn't as much the glorified IC title it is now. Not the status of the WWE title but its something. I think early on Vince had a fear of pushing "ethnic" guys to the title because he felt like that was too much his dad's strategy and it would make them look more like a regional "New York" company. Although FWIW if Hogan had never come over JYD was a consideration for top star.
ReplyDeleteI'm a huge supporter of Kofi Kingston, but I'm not sure his treatment or lack of trigger pulling has anything to do with him being black. As sad as it is, in this era, nearly everybody is treated poorly. Zack Ryder, Dolph Ziggler, John Morrison, The Miz, Brodus Clay, Tensai, Antonio Cesaro, Daniel Bryan, Cody Rhodes -- all of these guys are people the company was super behind at one point, and then randomly started jobbing out and keeping off of PPV's for periods at a time. And they're all white.
ReplyDeleteWrestling history is littered with stereotypes. Shit, Kamala is easily one of the worst offenders and he was not a McMahon creation. Hopefully, now that it's the year 2013, we'll see an evolution away from these type of things and actually create characters with some dimension and nuance although I think there will always be some stereotypes.
ReplyDeleteI thought they handled that uncharacteristically well. As he worked his way up the card it really felt like he was earning it, and once he was champ he felt like he belonged. Getting a clean win over Goldberg felt like icing on the cake.
ReplyDeleteBrodus is black or half black or something.
ReplyDeleteI highly doubt Vince had much to do with Heenan or Piper in those situations.
ReplyDeleteThat's actually a good point about black wrestlers needing someone to make their case in the home office. It's amazing how just having someone who can put your interests forward can change the dynamic. I'm a big believer that "best person available" can be a number of people if you just accentuate their strengths.
ReplyDeleteFair point. But the overall argument, I think, is still valid. There are plenty of white Superstars who are treated just as poorly.
ReplyDeleteIt's been studied (and shown by a ton of examples) that people hire who they're comfortable with. That's human nature. If you grew up with white or black people and most of your friends are of a specific ethnicity, you will usually feel more comfortable hiring people you feel you can trust. It's the same reason most of Magic Johnson's corporate team is black and Eddie Murphy hired all black crew and actors when he was directing movies. White owners, white GMs, in general, have hired white coaches and other executives. It's not overtly racist, but it's what's happened. Until there are more black owners and black GMs, you won't have more black coaches. Until there are some high ranking creative officers or black executives in WWE, you won't have black athletes/wrestlers pushed in the same manner as white athletes/wresters. And no, Rock doesn't count. Even when he played at The U here in Miami, everyone thought he was either Samoan or Hispanic and his last name is Johnson (!) for Thor's sake.
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing what you can tell yourself is "best for business" when you won't admit that you have racist tendencies or certain biases. Pretty much every modern economist will tell you that people rarely act purely in their best interest.
ReplyDeleteAnd with JYD, you could certainly argue that he was a regional champ talent. Hogan was one hell of a curve wrecker. I have a lot of dislike for Hogan, but he was the real McCoy and so McMahon Jr wasn't completely wrong in that line of reasoning. I think he can be forgiven for thinking that during the 80s, but it's more that the belief kind of calcified as he grew older.
ReplyDeleteMan, if only D'Lo didn't botch.
Oh, I knew that, he just doesn't really look Asian.
ReplyDeleteFarooq should have gotten a run when he was in the NOD, or at least some main event matches with Bret/Shawn etc. The guy cut some awesome promos in 1997 and came off as legit pissed off and he had a great finisher. All he really needed in 1997/1998.
ReplyDeleteIt's kind of funny they tried to push a racism angle with Farooq & Sunny when he debuted but then backed off.
Routinely the best coaches weren't very good players so the percentage of black players shouldn't really matter. Most of the top current NFL coaches (Sean Payton, Bill Belichick, Mike Smith, Pete Carroll, John Harbaugh, Mike McCarthy, Mike Tomlin) never played in the NFL (though Payton was a scab in '86) and neither did guys like Bill Parcells and Mike Holmgren. The same also goes for many of the more successful black coaches (Tomlin, Dennis Green, Lovie Smith, Marvin Lewis) while Mike Singletary (11-year pro), Herm Edwards (10-year pro), and Ray Rhodes (7-year pro) were failures as head coaches. And Edwards and Rhodes both received 2nd chances while Singletary is very likely to receive one in the future. Tony Dungy was an exception, though his playing career was nothing to write home about.
ReplyDeleteOne thing most successful head coaches have in common is getting into the profession at an early age, something you can't do if you're playing professionally. And like the old phrase goes, "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach."
The Steelers were in full rebuild mode when Cower took over.
ReplyDeleteI certainly agree that it is not overt racism. I do think though, that once you have enough money and clout, you really should take a step back and say "Ok, we've been doing it this way for so long, it's had this result. Is that really what we want?"
ReplyDeleteOf course if Vince had the ability to do that, we wouldn't have champions who lose to the Miz in under 5 minutes.
You've never seen him drive! Hi-yoooo
ReplyDeleteUmm, no. His first year they were 11-5 and had a loaded defense and Barry Foster. And even if they were, he was not involved in personnel. BTW, I loved Cower but if you want to talk coaching, he choked so many AFC championships it wasn't even funny. Losing at home to SD in 94 was inexcusable.
ReplyDeleteI dunno if that's true with Kofi. He strikes me as another John Morrison type - a guy who'll have good matches but isn't necessarily driven to carve out his LEGACY in THIS BUSINESS. Whilst I think he could certainly get over as a Main Event-level face, guys like HHH and Vince probably see him goofing around backstage or playing videogames and decide that he's not deserving of a big push. That's all assumption on my part, of course, but it seems logical.
ReplyDeleteOn the plus side, at least we don't need to watch a Wrestlemania Main Event in the near future with Michael Cole exclaiming "Vintage What I Like To Call A Controlled Frenzy!"
They're concave. Much like Jericho's of late.
ReplyDeleteGood point, also I'm sure Lovie Smith won't be long without a job.
ReplyDeleteOrndorff was worse,. He did the same type of stuff as a heel AND a face. Who can forget him pulling his eyes up to mock Fuji?
ReplyDeletecouldn't disagree more.
ReplyDeleteI loved JYD as a kid even though in retrospect he sucked in the ring (then again I liked Corporal Kirscner too, so what the Hell did I know?). But stopping giving a fuck because you aren't the world champ is dumb as hell. Did Savage stop giving a fuck? Steamboat? Santana? Bret?
ReplyDelete2 Cold Scorpio seems like a guy who would have gotten a much bigger push had he been white and/or not goofy looking (his face was downright cartoonishly-proportioned). Not really Vince's fault though, as he's just one of MANY guys to get goofy gimmicks in the New Generation period.
ReplyDeleteOtherwise, there are plenty of blacks who got big pushes- Lashley, Booker T, THE ROCK (though that could be as much from the "Maivia" half of his bloodline since Vince obviously loves that one particular race), Godfather (a goofy midcard gimmick that hit the IC Title), and more.
Obviously, Vince & co. are the least PC people in the world, but I don't see them as true racists.
He was also stiff as FUCK, if I recall. The Rock even made a shoot comment stating that much, and it's a big part of why he was turfed after his huge push.
ReplyDeleteAgree with Scott on Bad News Brown being 10 years ahead of his time, and in the same way Ahmed was like three years behind. If he bodyslams Yoko in 1993 on the USS Intrepid instead of in 1996 (?) when it was relatively meaningless, he could've taken with the audience and probably won the belt at Summerslam
ReplyDeleteI heard something about Hardbody Harrison's "WCW didn't push me past jobber status because THEY ARE RACISTS" lawsuit being the reason why Booker T got the World Title at first- WCW wanted to prove they weren't racists.
ReplyDeleteGranted, he WAS the best guy for the belt after a certain point, and they kept pushing him after, so they probably would've done so anyways.
Yeah, Vince & co. are more COMPLETELY politically incorrect and love playing up stereotypes and taking advantage of them.
ReplyDeleteShawn Michaels also did a tribal dance and a fake meditative thing at Tatanka, even as a face.
ReplyDeleteyes... omg those pecs are terrible!
ReplyDeletehe plays stereotypes to the nth degree.
ReplyDeletestereotypes exist cuz they are mostly true. they're not PC but it is what it is.
if itll make vince money vince will do anything.
fuck pittsburgh.
ReplyDeletei thought they back handed their way into it.
ReplyDeletethe tv title reigns were fine.
once he got the us title, he would job to steiner.
then out of nowhere he's the champ. i didnt buy it until like the second reign.
que?
ReplyDelete"Oh I should probably mention Fuj as well. He said that'd help my question get answered."
ReplyDelete"He says a lot of stuff."
...that gets posted to the blog... He said triumphantly.
I wouldn't call Singletary a failure, the 49ers ownership was so bad during that period that I don't think any coach would have been successful under those circumstances. I wish the Bills would have hired him. Not that I give a damn about the Bills, but it would be nice to not have everyone I know complaining about how bad they suck. That's shits getting pretty old.
ReplyDeleteOn an unrelated note, Herm Edwards annoys the shit of me for some reason. Any time he pops up on SportsCenter I instantly change the channel. Just can't stand the guy.
I think 2 Cold's lack of a main event push was due to his sloppy ring work (hell, he regularly botched his finisher, for Christ's sake) and the fact that he was stoned all the time more than him being black or goofy looking. I never bought him as a main event guy, at least not in a big promotion.
ReplyDeleteY'know, as much as I revile Vince as a person, among the things I can and do often call him, racist isn't really one of them. The Rock is half black/half Samoan, Booker was a top guy with or without a world belt, Rey got as far as he could for his size, latino or not, Del Rio now, and Ahmed Johnson was all set to get the Jesus push before he fucked (himself) up to hell. Maybe Vince is racist in other ways, but from what we can see it really doesn't seem like it.
ReplyDelete...Yeah, and?
ReplyDeleteAsk Triple H how he feels about "those people" at the top. And then I present Exhibit A, Section 1, Subsection 1A....Booker T, Wrestlemania XIX, the build-up and then the end result. It took Book 3 years to wake up from that Pedigree.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Chris Jericho, Scorpio's face isn't the ONLY thing cartoonishly proportioned.
ReplyDeleteKofi would be main event if he could cut a promo worth a damn.
ReplyDeleteHow dare you slander Jericho's pecs! They are immaculate. Is nothing sacred anymore!? Next you'll attack his perfectly maintained thighs.
ReplyDeleteI can't believe he got away with saying that. Goddamn Rodney the Piper man.
ReplyDeleteI agree. Booker held the WHC when it was still near equal footing with the WWE title. In 2006 back when Triple H had his reign of terror with the belt, and Batista had his long reign.
ReplyDeleteI'm curious as to why Scott thinks that Scott Hall will get a main event push soon.
ReplyDeleteVince prefers muscular wrestlers. Why else did he give a 10-year contract to Henry, a guy that had no history in wrestling?
ReplyDeleteAgreed. The only color Vince cares about is green.
ReplyDeleteIf obama can be called black, so can the rock.
ReplyDeleteDidn't he beat Jarrett for the title? I never had a problem believing he could beat Jarrett or DDP. But I was already a smark by then so I pretty much thought all of WCWs main event sucked
ReplyDeleteKofi is a solid worker, but I don't think that he's an uncrowned world champ by any means.
ReplyDeleteWith the standards of the day, he could certainly have a run and it wouldn't be out of place or anything. But it's not like he's an stand out choice to lead the company and just being held back by his skin colour.
If he's white, he's John Morrison.
I've never seen Vince as racist. Culturally insensitive, and prone to stereotyping, definitely, but that's largely the nature of the game, and in an of itself doesn't equal racism. At least not in my book.
ReplyDeleteAnd at least some of the more insensitive characters, certainly in the past, weren't Vince creations anyhow. Kamala for instance, was Kamala before, and after, his time with Vince. That was a character that James Harris the man had developed (maybe in concert with others, it doesn't matter) and monetized for himself.
I think that Vince would run with an alien from outer space if he thought it would carry the company.
Nothing about that match changes if Booker was white.
ReplyDeleteWooooooooooooo!
ReplyDeleteDoes WWE have any black people in creative, or in agent roles?
ReplyDeleteI remember when Hacksaw Jim Duggan was doing a promo for a house show with the Rockers on "Maple Leaf Wrestling" or "Superstars" way back in the day, to plug a 6-man match against folks managed by Mr. Fuji. Quoth the Hacksaw: "And Fuji, if you interfere, there's gonna be a little nip in the air in [location of house show]!" Marty and Shawn start snickering at that.
ReplyDeleteEven as a kid at the time, I was like "WHAT did he just say?!?" And keep in mind, this wasn't a slip of the tongue on live TV. This was a pre-taped promo!
Doesn't look like it (though I confess that I don't know everyone's ethnicity), although David Kapoor (a/k/a Ranjin Singh) is ID'd as Head Writer for RAW on this list:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WWE_personnel#Off-screen_personnel
I think Mick Foley has mentioned that too.
ReplyDeleteHe did get a PPV world title match with Undertaker that was pretty terrible. Simmons was pushing 40 by the time he got to the WWF and just wasn't the worker that he'd been in WCW. Although he certainly deserved better than to get swept up in that NOD three-way feud.
ReplyDeleteNoooooooo, singletary was the worst coach of all time. Fuck that guy
ReplyDeleteWith how long Vince has worked towards Mark Henry being relevant without giving up on him. And finally succeeding I find it very hard to believe he may be a racist in any way.
ReplyDeleteNeither would I, but I figured him for a major Cruiserweight-type star or big name because of his high-flying. Instead he's like a forgettable WCW & WWF guy, and was used in ECW mainly as a "name" guy to put over others like Jericho & Douglas.
ReplyDeleteIf he ever wins a world title, they have to bring back Mike Adamle to yell "Jamaican me crazy!" during his victory celebration.
ReplyDeleteNeither does Rock.
ReplyDeleteThe blackest guy I know's last name is Johnson.
ReplyDeleteDusty Rhodes.
ReplyDeleteMost modern economists are also full of shit.
ReplyDelete