Here's something i'd quite like to ask all the BoD'ers every now and then - What if..?
After some of the cool discussion that took place in the ECW thread I started last week, I put this question to you:
"It's 2001 - What happens if ECW stay in business (say, get the deal with USA) and WCW go out of business?"
*How long do they survive?
*Does their status increase as they'll automatically be seen as the 2nd biggest wrestling company in North America?
*Who do they pick up from WCW (realistically) who either wasn't picked up by WWF, or was being quickly mistreated pretty evidently by WWF (yeh, alright, alright. There's a case that 90% of the WCW guys were..)? (Here is a link to the WCW 2001 roster - http://www.willywrestlefest.fr/WcW/Historique/Roster_WcW.htm)
*Out of the guys they pick up from WCW, who gets the push?
*What effect does this have on the Invasion angle? (if any..)
There's a thousand possibilities and outcomes here, and i'd love to hear what some of you guys think.
Cheers.
Follow @FNBodySlams on Twitter
After some of the cool discussion that took place in the ECW thread I started last week, I put this question to you:
"It's 2001 - What happens if ECW stay in business (say, get the deal with USA) and WCW go out of business?"
*How long do they survive?
*Does their status increase as they'll automatically be seen as the 2nd biggest wrestling company in North America?
*Who do they pick up from WCW (realistically) who either wasn't picked up by WWF, or was being quickly mistreated pretty evidently by WWF (yeh, alright, alright. There's a case that 90% of the WCW guys were..)? (Here is a link to the WCW 2001 roster - http://www.willywrestlefest.fr/WcW/Historique/Roster_WcW.htm)
*Out of the guys they pick up from WCW, who gets the push?
*What effect does this have on the Invasion angle? (if any..)
There's a thousand possibilities and outcomes here, and i'd love to hear what some of you guys think.
Cheers.
Follow @FNBodySlams on Twitter
Didn't start watching until around WM20 so go easy if something doesn't make sense, but if ECW were in a position to pinch WCW talent then i assume WWF makes a bigger push to grab the top WCW talent and leave the lower/mid carders to ECW. So the dream booking for the invasion (Goldberg/Sting/Flair/DDP/whoever) comes off as a full heel WCW vs face WWF battle. I assume ECW are left with all the cruiser-weights and move away from complete hardcore programming and a little towards flashy cruiser wrestling with a hardcore main event picture. Maybe they'd survive to the present day but really only as the top indy promotion considering the spectacle WWF would become with the full rosters of both companies, and already poached top ECW stars like RVD and the Dudleys.
ReplyDeleteAgain there are probably wrestlers that didn't jump to WWF in the invasion for other reasons, but I just think with a second company in the market Vince makes more of an effort to secure the top talent.
Not much would have changed.....they eventually would have gone under. Its pretty obvious that they wouldn't have survived that long without the support of the WWF.
ReplyDeleteLong story short, they'd be a solid number 2 today. Nowhere near challenging WWE but in better shape than TNA is.
ReplyDeleteThey would just turn into what TNA was when they were running weekly PPVs. TNA at that time was all the WCW/ECW castoffs that WWE didn't want plus some indy guys (most of whom sucked).
ReplyDeleteAll the big name guys had deals with Time Warner and they were being paid so much they weren't going to break them.
I think you would probably have Raven as one of your main stars, maybe Shane Douglas. Jeff Jarrett & AJ Styles might get included too. I doubt it would have lasted as long as TNA has especially with Heyman running it, because he would probably be bouncing checks pretty quickly and he would probably get them kicked off USA after a year or two.
Well, here are the guys I think they would have realistically picked up from WCW's roster:
ReplyDelete*AJ Styles
*Bam Bam Bigelow
*Big Vito (he was formerly a part of the Baldies as 'Skull')
*Buff Bagwell (I could actually see him making a few appearances - instant heat)
*Crowbar/Devon Storm
*Curt Hennig
*Dusty Rhodes (again, another short-term stay)
*Elix Skipper
*Evan Karagias
*Jamie Noble
*Konnan
*Mike Awesome (after realising things weren't happening at WWE, of course)
*Norman Smiley (I could see him forming a tag)
*The Steiners (ok, big money here... would heavily depend on the budget)
*Shane Douglas
*Shannon Moore
*Sid (couple of appearances like he did in '99)
*Terry Funk
Could have made some pretty interesting signings. Of course, it all depends on the budget. And sure, they wouldn't have done all of them overnight.
The Steiners realistically would have been the biggest guys they could have got their hands on (I mean unless they really wanted to take a risk financially and get say, a Goldberg, or Kevin Nash).
Jarrett's a great shout - I think you would have seen him turn up. Again, great heel, very natural.
ReplyDeleteRaven wanted to go to WWF for some time. His contract run out at WCW in 99 (I think), but had a stip that meant he could not work for WWF for 1 whole year, hence his short return to ECW. After 1 year was up, he was straight to WWF, so a return to ECW looked fairly slim.
I'd say they don't survive. Vince would have bought them irrespective of price. Barring that, I'd say they'd be alive today in a situation similar to TNA. They'd get some WCW guys like Lance Storm, Douglas and some of the younger guys Jimmy Hart was using on Saturday Night hopefully interspersed with some ECW talent, indy stars and a hopefully less 90s style.
ReplyDeleteTheir main problem? There'd be a fight for #2, because I think TNA still would form - the Southern wrestling fan still has nowhere to turn if the Big 2 are Vince and ECW; Jerry Jarrett said that's one of the main reasons he founded the promotion. There would be a huge fight for talent between those two groups.
Here's my question on Jarrett:
ReplyDeleteIF Vince is the one "helping" Paul stay in business, does Paul REALLY risk pissing his "sugar daddy" off to get Jarrett?
Or does Jarrett wind up starting TNA anyway... maybe after the eventual Vince/Paul blowup that was bound to happen.
I don't think it would have mattered; ECW was pretty dismal at its end. I think Heyman was fried from years of keeping the financial wolves at bay. If ECW survived, Heyman would have needed a break, but with Gabe being the most obvious replacement, ECW would have, at best, evolved into ROH.
ReplyDeleteInteresting... but I think Gabe wouldn't be able to make that severe a transition. Not without losing enough of the fanbase to lose the whole ship before it can be fixed.
ReplyDeleteBut an ECW/ROH hybrid might have had promise... Especially if they can get a few of the early ROH guys onboard.
I think Heyman would have been fine after he'd sorted out the TV deal. I think that's what was mainly killing him, having to devote all of his time to that.
ReplyDeleteOnce that aspect was covered, he could have worked alongside Dreamer (who was doing a lot of the booking on the house shows at this point) and recharged his creative juices.
Great question.
ReplyDeleteYou're right - I don't think Heyman would have jeopardised that.
But the question more is 'would Vince have continued to pay Heyman if ECW were suddenly the #2 company?'.
My overall take on the question:
ReplyDelete1: Anywhere from 6 months to still alive today. Too many variables to count there.
2: Not as they were booked for the last 6 months. Maybe RVD's World Title run, if he could avoid injury, would help. But ECW would've needed a possibly painful transition to get to #2.
3: A.J. Styles, Crowbar (Devon Storm), Elix Skipper, Norman Smiley, Terry Funk (one last run?), Daffney. Maybe a couple more "no-names", but anyone who showed up at WM 17 is off limits to me. And the rest aren't worth it, whether from a financial, talent, or backstage perspective.
4: Funk gets the first push... Rhyno can use the credibility from taking out a returning legend. Styles and Skipper might get into the TV title hunt eventually... get that belt off Rhyno and onto someone else.
5: Minimal. You lose the "Alliance", but Vince isn't going to do it right anyway. He'll still have the ex-ECW guys (Dudleys, Tazz, etc...) join the WCW "wrasslers" just to bury them all.
If Vince considers them his "farm system", like a AAA team in baseball, he does anything to keep them going. Until he has his own system in place, or he feels he doesn't need them/they don't need him.
ReplyDeleteThat's why the "blowup" line is in there... the only variable is the "when".
They talk about this in the Barbed Wire City doc that just came out.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's actually a decent doc, for the fact that they get around WWE owning all the footage by instead using the old ECW fan-cam footage.
From what I understand, a USA deal was pretty much close to happening - more than anyone ever let on - but whoever was in charge soured on the idea after WWE went to TNN, b/c he figured he could use the chance to start to rebrand USA.
Funk/Rhino.... That'd make sense. Rhino was over as a heel for sure, and this could push it over the edge.
ReplyDeleteApparently the plan for the entire year of 2001 was to build RVD's quest for the gold, so i'd imagine Rhino would have faced a few other guys other than RVD in the mean time. A small Funk feud would have worked nicely.
And apparently, Heyman wanted to get more in to a submission style of wrestling, which, personally, I wasn't too sure of as an ECW fan. Although, he did say he'd keep the hardcore for the appropriate times/matches, which is fair.
Nothing interesting. Heyman would still be bad with money so they'd eventually run out of luck. And with the hardcore style falling out of favor with fans, they'd be left with very little appeal.
ReplyDeleteGood news: you got Steve Austin's autograph.
ReplyDeleteBad news: He signed it as "Ringmaster."
As mentioned below, they were looking to transition in to a more of a submission based style and save the hardcore for the big matches/where it was necessary.
ReplyDeleteECW was an acquired taste back then, and the roster at the time was really, really thin on actual talented workers. If a TV deal had gone through, they would have had an ingrown audience already, but would have had trouble picking up new fans who were used to WWF's familiar faces (picture a lot of people saying "who the hell is this guy?"). A WCW talent raid probably would not have made much impact unless they were getting the bigger names like Goldberg, Steiner, Jarrett, Hogan, etc. I hardly doubt that those names would want to work for the ECW brand. They would probably still prefer Vince's dollars, since he is and always will be the first and last name affiliated with working and actually getting paid. I would give the ECW on USA less than a year before it got pulled for poor ratings and complaints from people unfamiliar with the graphic nature of the product. ECW was going to die eventually. USA would have kept it on life support just a little longer.
ReplyDeleteI'd say this is probably the most realistic outcome, another year and then death.
ReplyDeleteBut I dunno. If it evolved properly, it may have been different.
And maybe a dip in to the piggy bank for a Goldberg or someone like that might have been a good signing?
Assuming Paul Heyman hires an actual accounting team that manages the expenses and keeps him away from anything non-booking related...then yeah, ECW may still be around if the TV deal went down. Heyman is a booking genius and can acclimate to the times and/or be the lead in new ideas, always has been.
ReplyDeleteI don't see ECW lasting any longer than it did no matter what. Heyman still would have sucked with money and still would have had a reputation for not paying people, and I don't think there was any coming back from the Credible push that essentially killed the company. Honestly I'm kind of surprised that they managed to stay afloat as long as they did, 2000 ECW was terrible.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, I think ECW could have done really well. They just did that WWE.com article a week ago where a bunch of old ECW people were interviewed about what the plan was going forward and it sounded like it could have worked. Even Paul admitted that the hardcore thing was on its last legs and his plan was to change the direction of the company to essentially what ROH wound up becoming.
ReplyDeleteThe ECW roster was really thin by the end but that first post-ECW indy class was REALLY good. And among even casual fans, ECW had the reputation as being the "cool" or "edgy" company and I think that would have brought some eyeballs to USA. I'm not sure how much it would have changed the Invasion angle since I don't know if the plan all along was to merge the WCW and ECW brands as one (storyline) entity. I remember Paul mentioning in the aforementioned article that Vince actually recommended ECW to USA so I'm not sure it's a given that Vince would have also bought out ECW had ECW not gone bankrupt.
I often wonder if things would have been different if ECW never got the TNN deal. By all accounts, paying to be on TV is what really financially killed the company. It was a chance and risk they had to take but one that obviously didn't pan out. If they don't go on TNN and lose all that money, they maintain their cult popularity level and maybe lose even more talent to WWF or WCW but also probably don't put themselves in such dire financial straits that they might have been able to keep chugging along waiting for a better TV opportunity.
I think it was a transition period.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny, one of my real good pals agrees with you completely (well, at least did) that Credible sucked and the whole thing with pushing him to the moon was stupid (he still believes that bit) and that ECW seriously lacked star power during its final days.
What I argued however, was that it was a transition period.
The tag division was seriously hotting up, and there were guys that DOWN THE LINE could have done well for themselves. Guys like CW, Kid Kash, EZ Money. I know to us guys now that just sounds stupid, because we know they only reached a certain level. But they had to wrestle in mainstream companies where they weren't doing their thing.
Who knows, maybe given a few years, guys like them could have really elevated themselves.
Rhino is another good example. He took the ball and run with it, and was seriously getting himself over as one of ECW's finest heels in some time. Plus, the popularity of RVD was absolutely phenominal. Paul was right to make a (planned) year long thing out of the RVD title chase against Rhino. Both guys were mega over.
My one worry out of that piece is that ECW didn't look as 'cool' or 'edgy' anymore, because (as mentioned in Barbed Wire City) WWF completely stole the whole concept with the Attitude era. Suddenly, ECW's appeal had been sucked in to the WWF. It basically took away their most prized weapon (no pun intended).
ReplyDeleteThis is why Heyman knew he had to start moving away from a solely hardcore product.
And from the way I heard it, it sounded like the TNN deal was what was needed to even keep them afloat in the first place. Basically, there were guys waiting to walk out of the door unless they got the TV deal.
ReplyDeleteIt was only when they secured the TV deal that guys felt happy enough to stay put 'knowing' they could buy a house now and such.
Sad, really.
This really confused me until I read the odd footage/WWF WM 12 thread...
ReplyDeleteIf Heyman were smart he would have sold a majority share and been kept on as booker.
ReplyDeleteIf Heyman sells the majority stake in his company and pays Vince back for being kept afloat I think Heyman could have lasted for a while. ECW at the end (sadly) reminds me of ROH right now: a shell of itself without any of what made it great. But the idea of Heyman getting to book the guys like Bryan Danielson, Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, CM Punk, Low-Ki, and Christopher Daniels is really, really awesome.
ReplyDeleteI think that ECW has trouble competing in the long run with the collapse of WCW effectively sealing their fate. Without the ECW acquisition in an alternate timeline, Vince would've scooped up the best WCW talent available to create his eventual super-roster, while ECW would've picked up the scraps left behind. In a universe where TNA forms anyhow after the fact, it would've further reduced their talent pool, which was never very deep to begin with.
ReplyDeleteIi think the USA deal would have negated a lot of ECW's coolness factor. It would have attracted viewers, but I don't think a lot of those "hardcore" elements would have been around if ECW was on a tighter leash content-wise. Who knows, maybe the constraints would have sped up the transition from "extreme" to a more ROH style product.
ReplyDeleteReally?! How so?
ReplyDeleteI just thought he suited ECW so, so well. Cut a good promo, could go in-ring (technical or hardcore), could play a heel or a face. Pretty versatile.
Without the scarred forehead, I always thought he'd have also been a good fit for WWE (mid-card).
To all the mentions of TNA and the effect they would have had:
ReplyDeleteTNA had the advantage of there being ZERO competition (obviously other than WWE) when they started out.
IF (and it's a big 'if') ECW even maintained the level they were on say, with TNN (drawing between 0.9-1.1 in the ratings), then why would guys consider leaving ECW to go to TNA?
You may have some that didn't feel like they were getting a fair shake in ECW, but Paul usually dealt with that pretty well.
--
All of this assuming that Paul WOULD be paying the talent. The TV deal with USA would have meant ECW would be taking money rather than paying out money. TV means better houses, more exposure, more toy deals, more video games, better merch sales.
Jarrett would've started TNA no matter what, IMO. Even if it winds up failing instead of ECW, it would have existed.
ReplyDeleteThe real question is "what if Heyman was given full control for the ECW reboot in 2006?" Yes, he was the head writer for the show, but he had to abide by Vince's wishes when it came to the champ and the championship angles on his show. Imagine a refreshed Heyman with 5 years of hindsight, 1/3 of WWE's talent pool, and a deal with SyFy that had them between 2 and 3 ratings points per week.
ReplyDeleteHeyman was melting down and burning bridges everywhere for the last year of the original ECW. And he was making as many bad creative decisions as he was financial ones. And let's not forget that when ECW went out of business (early 2001), it was essentially wrestling's equivalent period to the dot com bubble burst--no wrestling promotion was going to thrive after the hangover of the 5 year joyride that began with the nWo and Austin's ascension. Lastly, Heyman can say he was going to evolve, but there didn't look to be many hints of that on his shows.
Now, his work as a writer on Smackdown showed he was ready about a year or so later. I was also very entertained by WWECW outside of the Lashley period, and I think Heyman could have done something special with it had December to Dismember not sucked out his soul (they were already hitting on gothic themes a year or two before twilight, they were going to build around CM Punk before anyone else, etc.).
Even a better question, what if Heyman was given 100% full control of the current WWE roster?
ReplyDeleteHe's still got to deal with Vince snatching up his top talent "at will". WWE OWNED that ECW, unlike the situation in 2001.
ReplyDeleteThe same ALMOST applies to a 2001 ECW, unless Paul can get contracts to his key guys.
Can't be worse than what's on RAW today. I'd bet anything short of my life on that one.
ReplyDeleteI'm backing up Curry here. Corino was a sign of impending doom for ECW. I think you are overrating his abilities all around. I can't say you're flat out wrong with your assertions, but he screamed bush league to the average ECW fan that fell in love with the Ravens, Taz's, Sabus, Funks, and RVDs. His Dusty feud was good, though.
ReplyDeleteGreat post.
ReplyDeleteI said this to my pal the other day when we were watching one of the final PPVs.
I noted that it really wasn't that hardcore anymore.
In fact, it was Guilty As Charged '01, their final show. Apart from the main event (which was a Tables, Ladders, Chairs & Canes match), there was just the odd chair used here and there. That was it.
They were definitely starting to move away from the hardcore aspect. Admittedly, I didn't see too much of the submission style that Heyman talked about in the article, but maybe he needed the likes of Joe, Punk, Danielson, Low-Ki etc to put that aspect over, just like he did with the Mexicans/Radicals.
I even questioned what Raw would be like with a refreshed Vince Russo booking now (and obviously Vince McMahon 'filtering' him still)... Could it really be worse than now? Like, honestly?
ReplyDeleteMaybe he just needed more Dusty Rhodes' to get him over?
ReplyDeleteAs many have pointed out, they were lacking (immediate) star power at that point. I think there was potential stars in the making, but they lacked those instant recognisable names.
Plus, outside of Dusty, what other notable feuds did he have? I just remember him dicing between a few guys. Maybe that was half the issue...
Paul Heyman has said that the extreme stuff would have been phased out and turned into to what ROH was.
ReplyDeleteYour first born's life?
ReplyDeleteAnd the ratings would have dropped accordingly.
ReplyDeleteWouldn't the rarity make that worth much more than all the Stone Cold signatures that he must have die?
ReplyDeleteAnd who filters Vince?
ReplyDeleteMaybe Russo should filter Vince now.
ReplyDeleteBecause the ratings were so high to begin with.
ReplyDeleteCouldn't be any worse.
ReplyDeleteIf I had one to bet, no.
ReplyDeleteEDITed accordingly.
Agreed- Credible was fucking awful, and the fans knew it. He was a bush-league wrestler in every sense of the term, and all of his hype was ECW fakery by putting him with good workers and treating his raspy, hissing promos like the work of a star. Having him as a main eventer would have killed them eventually.
ReplyDeleteAnd pushing other bush-leaguers like Corino & CW Anderson as top guys wouldn't have helped, either. Both were at-best above-average workers. With an influx of WCW talent, they could have pushed a REAL talent base again, but Paul Heyman can be hard to convince that his ideas are terrible sometimes.
It would of been really interesting, especially if TNA had still formed. With 2 companies needing talent, a lot of the early Ring of Honor guys would of been picked up much sooner by ECW or TNA (Daniels, Punk, Cesaro, Ohno, Aries, Shelley, Red, Low Ki, Bentley) and if both still survived to this day, even the WWE itself would look incredibly different.
ReplyDeleteECW basically only existed because Vince allowed it to, by propping them up. They never could've become viable competition because he simply could have shut them down at a moments notice.
ReplyDeleteShane!
ReplyDeleteI totally disagree about him playing a face, then or now, he's just a natural born heel. And I've never been big on his ring work either. Anyone can do a hardcore match, and outside of that I'd say he's decent at best. Plus his peroxide hair made him look like the biggest douchebag ever.
ReplyDeleteHe would have been perfect for the WWE mid-card though, especially with his mic skills. His work in ROH has been fantastic, and now he's the full time commentator. The TV show is worth watching just for him alone.
Agreed. And it was the combination of him and Credible that turned me off ECW finally. I could handle one or the other, but not both. We really shouldn't put it all on them though, Justin Credible and Steve Corino weren't the ones that booked that garbage.
ReplyDeleteMy new favorite 'What If?'--What if the Team Challenge Series had gotten over? Not only would "Milk Cold" Jake Milliman have become a household name, but we'd still be feeling the influence today: Cena vs. Ryback in a football match...pre-recorded in an EMPTY ARENA!!! Winner gets a turkey and 3 points.
ReplyDeleteIf USA helps bankroll ECW for a little bit, gives them a great time slot, and lets Paul do his thing I think it could have survived. RVD's world title run would have been big based on how over he was in WWE when he got their. The upcoming indy class could have kept it going up to the present. Bottom line USA has or another 3rd party backer has to step in to help until the TV show catches fire.
ReplyDeleteTriple H's passing out was cribbed from Russo's HBK passing out from 95. Would love to see Russo back.
ReplyDeleteVery nice! I miss AWA on Classic
ReplyDeleteThey might have gotten some of the decent guys that WWF didn't want, I suppose. Some guys might have theoretically preferred wrestling for ECW instead (assuming in this parallel world that Heyman had money to actually pay people), and there were a handful of solid WCW talents (or up & coming indie guys) that never got picked up, I recall. The WWF never hired on rookie jobbers like AJ Styles or Low-Ki, for example.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Credible fucking sucked, and Corino was like a Lite-Beer version of the NWA greats of the '80s, which made him a combination of too-dated and too-shitty to be a major star.
ReplyDeleteSure, but it would have taken a couple years to build AJ, Daniels, etc... into anything that would draw, and they didn't have a couple years.
ReplyDeleteWhat a story mark.
ReplyDeleteDude its so refreshing to hear the argument that people that we don't think of as "stars" could've gotten there eventually if things had worked out for them. People act like star power is just innate but it all depends on booking. I say that anyone who can work decently and plays their character well can be a star if someone pushes them and hides their weaknesses well enough.
ReplyDeleteNo, when Bischoff was losing control of WCW, he literally called an all-hands meeting and offered releases to anyone who wasn't happy. Raven stood up and walked out.
ReplyDeleteThere are no "thousand possibilities and outcomes". You can throw just about any realistic variable into the situation, and ECW still would have died.
ReplyDelete*Aside from anything labeled "WWF", the boom period for wrestling was over. Done. Final. End of story. Every dime the traditional media could squeeze out of the popularity of pro wrestling had been squeezed out.
*The reality of a TV deal with USA exists somewhere between some people getting an idea that USA might be interested because of ECW clips being shown on that horrible "Farm Club" show that aired on USA, and a complete lie that Heyman told his most loyal folks so that they'd hold on just a little longer while Heyman prayed for money to fall out of the sky.
*No realistic TV deal would pay all of the back payroll or the other debts that ended up in ECW's bankruptcy filing.
*No money mark was going to appear out of the blue in late 2000/early 2001 and spend millions of dollars on pro wrestling.
ECW is the dead horse of dead horses. Christ on a crutch, please let it stay dead.
This was an intersting post. But for me I would've loved to see Heyman get his hands on the next great crop of indy talent (Low Ki, Joe, AJ, Daniels, Reckless Youth, Danielson and the other TWA kids, etc.) just to see what he could do with them in their formidable stages like he did before (think Jericho and the Radicalz).
ReplyDelete