It's ridiculous but the part of the match that makes me wince the most is when Taker lowers himself down from the cage and lands on his broken foot.
Maybe its because I've no context to imagine what Foley went through, but I've broken my foot 3 or 4 times and the way taker limps as he lands is all to familiar.
No-one will ever convince me that the chokeslam through the cage wasn't a planned spot. From the way they gingerly avoid that section of the cage, to the way the camera goes wide for the shot, to the goddamned CABLE TIES lying in the ring after the bump... that was planned all along.
I always wondered about that myself. It all just looked too structured, if that's the word to use. I suppose it doesn't matter in the long run, though.
Likewise. It's a small moment but as you said, I have a closer frame of reference for landing on an injured foot than I do falling 16 feet through a table. Brutal match all around.
The thing that will always convince be that it wasn't planned is...why would they plan a second big spot after the first one? If they were sitting in the back, planning it out and and they decided Mick would come off the top of the cage, you can't really imagine them going 'okay, so once you get up from that, you'll climb the cage again and then.....'. They already planned the biggest bump of all time. I find it difficult to imagine them thinking that they needed to (or that Foley would be in any condition to) take the second biggest bump of all time as well.
Add in the seemingly genuine reaction of shock and concern from absolutely all the WWE personal in and around the ring and...well, why would Foley and Taker lie about it all these years? It has been dissected and the curtain well and truly pulled back on the whole thing...I'm not sure what's in it for Mick to have us all believing is wasn't planned if it was. Like...what does it matter? It was an incredible, unforgettable moment either way.
(J/K, still the most fucking amazing thing I've ever seen in wrestling, or almost anywhere, really. Anyone calling it a "spot fest" can get abducted by Heidenreich)
This got so much praise from the casual audience that it led to a smark backlash against it. I watched the whole thing on Foley's new Blu-ray for the first time in years, and it has aged so well, thanks very much in part to Ross and Lawler's commentary. The genuine shock in Jerry's voice when he says "you're kidding me" as Foley begins walking back to the ring after the big fall is a perfect imprint of what everyone felt when they saw the same thing. Shit like that, where what's being presented reaches into your soul, happens so infrequently. But I find it happens in pro wrestling more than any other athletic exhibition that exists. While I may hate on it as much as the next smark, Hell in a Cell is one of many reasons I've been a fan for 20+ years.
There's selling a story of a wrestler pushing through pain to keep going, then there's a real fucking human being going through real goddamn pain and injuries to keep going just to give us a show. Foley was superhuman that night, I don't know how it can be explained.
The quickness in which Funk got to Foley's still body right before the rush of officials and personnel is convincing in itself too. The way Foley is immediately swarmed just reeks of genuine panic.
"I also hate the "no wrestling" criticism of it: SORRY HE WASN'T TRADING ARMDRAGS WITH TAKER WITH HIS FUCKING INSIDES TURNED TO PULP."
I don't like this match at all and don't even really consider it actual wrestling (I've compared it to Jackass in the past) but thats a pretty stupid reason to hate the match. Never mind the fact that Foley was hurt, but it's a HITC match, not an ROH match. Were people expecting a lot of technical wrestling? And if so, why?
This is still the goddamnedest match I've ever seen in my life. I remember watching it as a teenager with my pals, your typical "16-year-old WWF PPV party" atmosphere and all of us just being stunned into utter silence by this match. A few of us legit screamed (myself included) at the two big bumps.j
I also nominate Ross/Lawler's job here as the single best piece of pro wrestling commentary of all time.
Even if it wasn't HITC, it's a pre-Hell's Gate Taker vs. Mick Foley. You have a better chance of Daniel Bryan using a chokeslam as a finisher than you do getting a technical match out of these two.
Yeah what would have happened had it not broken? I can't see Foley risking another throw off the top, but I also can't imagine them both gingerly climbing back down.
Was lucky to be there live. I was behind the announcers table, like 15-20 rows back. I couldn't see the floor area so I never saw Foley land. It was amazing.
Kind of like how about 30,000,000 people have claimed to have been at Woodstock, when really it was more like 500,000. I belive Cult is from Pittsburgh, though.
I was legit there. I actually had pretty good luck with memorable shit happening at shows I attended. KOTR 98, saw HBK/Razor 2 at SummerSlam 95 and was at the Raw in 97 when Bret made the Pittsburgh/enema joke and lost to the Patriot in the main event.
2 things that I think getting truly overlooked in the match:
1) the psychology with the thumbtacks. Every time you see someone about to go in, you can easily hear the crowd squeal like they don't want to see it but they really do. Once Foley goes on it, just hear the crowd's response. It's like the cherry on top in terms of brutality.
2) Lawler does not get enough credit for his announcing in that match. He knew when to be quiet and let JR speak. "What do you have to be sorry for JR?"
Art Donovan: "How much does this guy weigh?" "Why does he wear that mask?" "How much does the cage weigh?" "Why does he wear that tie?" "Who is that guy helping out the masked guy?" "How much does that table weigh?"
We've heard it replayed a bunch of times after Foley crashes onto the table, but JR's call of "Good God Almighty, they killed him" always stuck out. Listen closely--it's definitely "THEY killed him." Who are/is "they"? Was it a Freudian slip of sorts and he blamed all of us for encouraging the pushing of the envelope? Was he blaming the people who devised the match and its script (Taker, Funk, and Foley)? Or was it just a slip of the tongue? Either way, I always had a fun inside joke with my brother about the identity of "they."
Stuff him through it and he'd just plod into the ring? That doesn't make sense. Also, explain the cable ties that fall into the ring. They weren't preserving this hole you speak of... they were holding up that entire panel of steel mesh.
The fact that the biggest spot of all time was planned 5 minutes into the match should be enough to tell you that they weren't building to it. They never planned to top it. This was just violence icing added to an already delicious cake.
They don't go out of the way not to walk on the panel that broke. I just watched it, they fight on the right side of the cell the first time through. The entire left side is ignored until Foley climbs back up. And every panel has cable ties.
first ppv we ever ordered. watched with family and friends. i was 9. remember everything clear as day. after the ppv we rewound our tape and watched the match again, then again when it came on the encore.
I'm actually surprised, this is the first I've ever heard of anyone saying it was supposed to be unplanned, I thought Foley's first book kind of indicated he knew the chokeslam was going to put him through. Although it was definitely a botch to still have that chair up there, and have it land on Foley's face on the way down.
Everybody remembers JR's calls during this one, but the most memorable line for me was Lawler's "That's it, he's dead." Because it wasn't hype or hyperbole, it was just Lawler flat out thinking Foley was dead and you could hear him break character in his voice. I "watched" this through the glory of Scramblevision and I honestly don't regret it, because hearing it described like that and not knowing what was going on made it sound like the most brutal thing in wrestling history.
I watched the second HIAC (HHH Vs. Cactus) through scramble vision, and maybe I'm making this up because I was a kid and I can't remember clearly, but for about 30 seconds the image became almost perfectly clear as Foley lit the barbed-wire bat. It was awesome.
Going back and watching it, two things stick out...JR and the obvious brutality. I've seen it mentioned below but JR was simply FANTASTIC. It made me feel a little queezy watching it knowing how many injuries Foley suffered during the match.
Survivor Series 1997 Turned on Scramblevision only to be shocked by a perfectly clear picture in full color. Total fuck up by the cable company and I had to race to the closet to get a tape into the VCR in time.
This match epitomizes performers working through extreme pain for our entertainment. Taker came in with a broken foot and Foley left with hell.
ReplyDeleteIt's ridiculous but the part of the match that makes me wince the most is when Taker lowers himself down from the cage and lands on his broken foot.
ReplyDeleteMaybe its because I've no context to imagine what Foley went through, but I've broken my foot 3 or 4 times and the way taker limps as he lands is all to familiar.
The textbook definition of "leaving it on the floor". How they both managed to run in on the main later is beyond me.
ReplyDeleteNo-one will ever convince me that the chokeslam through the cage wasn't a planned spot. From the way they gingerly avoid that section of the cage, to the way the camera goes wide for the shot, to the goddamned CABLE TIES lying in the ring after the bump... that was planned all along.
ReplyDeleteI always wondered about that myself. It all just looked too structured, if that's the word to use. I suppose it doesn't matter in the long run, though.
ReplyDeleteCan you imagine them trying this shit today?
ReplyDeleteLikewise. It's a small moment but as you said, I have a closer frame of reference for landing on an injured foot than I do falling 16 feet through a table. Brutal match all around.
ReplyDeleteHa, Orton and Bryan just got fined for chairshots in their No DQ match.
ReplyDeleteGod, that makes me feel old.
ReplyDeleteNo kidding, even the arena the show was held in is dead.
ReplyDeleteChairshots in general or chairshots to the head? Cause, y'know, Benoit.
ReplyDeleteHeadshots, yes... and to be honest, a chairshot in general does a GREAT job at selling the match because it's used so sparingly now.
ReplyDeleteCan you guess which comment on that article is mine?! :)
ReplyDeleteYeah there's no way that wasn't planned. How were they supposed to get back inside afterwards? Another toss off the Cell through the English table?
ReplyDeleteThe thing that will always convince be that it wasn't planned is...why would they plan a second big spot after the first one? If they were sitting in the back, planning it out and and they decided Mick would come off the top of the cage, you can't really imagine them going 'okay, so once you get up from that, you'll climb the cage again and then.....'. They already planned the biggest bump of all time. I find it difficult to imagine them thinking that they needed to (or that Foley would be in any condition to) take the second biggest bump of all time as well.
ReplyDeleteAdd in the seemingly genuine reaction of shock and concern from absolutely all the WWE personal in and around the ring and...well, why would Foley and Taker lie about it all these years? It has been dissected and the curtain well and truly pulled back on the whole thing...I'm not sure what's in it for Mick to have us all believing is wasn't planned if it was. Like...what does it matter? It was an incredible, unforgettable moment either way.
I agree, it wasn't planned
ReplyDeleteI'm on there too, with Big Dave Batista giving a thumbs up.
ReplyDeleteWho gives a shit, Scott gave this one star.
ReplyDelete(J/K, still the most fucking amazing thing I've ever seen in wrestling, or almost anywhere, really. Anyone calling it a "spot fest" can get abducted by Heidenreich)
This got so much praise from the casual audience that it led to a smark backlash against it. I watched the whole thing on Foley's new Blu-ray for the first time in years, and it has aged so well, thanks very much in part to Ross and Lawler's commentary. The genuine shock in Jerry's voice when he says "you're kidding me" as Foley begins walking back to the ring after the big fall is a perfect imprint of what everyone felt when they saw the same thing. Shit like that, where what's being presented reaches into your soul, happens so infrequently. But I find it happens in pro wrestling more than any other athletic exhibition that exists. While I may hate on it as much as the next smark,
ReplyDeleteHell in a Cell is one of many reasons I've been a fan for 20+ years.
There's selling a story of a wrestler pushing through pain to keep going, then there's a real fucking human being going through real goddamn pain and injuries to keep going just to give us a show. Foley was superhuman that night, I don't know how it can be explained.
ReplyDeleteI share your sentiment. He lands right fucking on it, I don't know how he crumples. The pain tolerance by both men was out of this world.
ReplyDeleteThe quickness in which Funk got to Foley's still body right before the rush of officials and personnel is convincing in itself too. The way Foley is immediately swarmed just reeks of genuine panic.
ReplyDelete"I also hate the "no wrestling" criticism of it: SORRY HE WASN'T TRADING ARMDRAGS WITH TAKER WITH HIS FUCKING INSIDES TURNED TO PULP."
ReplyDeleteI don't like this match at all and don't even really consider it actual wrestling (I've compared it to Jackass in the past) but thats a pretty stupid reason to hate the match. Never mind the fact that Foley was hurt, but it's a HITC match, not an ROH match. Were people expecting a lot of technical wrestling? And if so, why?
This is still the goddamnedest match I've ever seen in my life. I remember watching it as a teenager with my pals, your typical "16-year-old WWF PPV party" atmosphere and all of us just being stunned into utter silence by this match. A few of us legit screamed (myself included) at the two big bumps.j
ReplyDeleteI also nominate Ross/Lawler's job here as the single best piece of pro wrestling commentary of all time.
Even if it wasn't HITC, it's a pre-Hell's Gate Taker vs. Mick Foley. You have a better chance of Daniel Bryan using a chokeslam as a finisher than you do getting a technical match out of these two.
ReplyDeleteTaker's role in the match is often ignored, but he took some punishment too.
ReplyDeleteYeah what would have happened had it not broken? I can't see Foley risking another throw off the top, but I also can't imagine them both gingerly climbing back down.
ReplyDeleteThe original plan was just to tear a whole in section and Taker would stuff Foley through. Giving away like that was definitely not planed.
ReplyDeleteWas lucky to be there live. I was behind the announcers table, like 15-20 rows back. I couldn't see the floor area so I never saw Foley land. It was amazing.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, I'm sure there was very little acting on JR and King's part.
ReplyDeleteStill, it would've been interesting to see how other teams would've handled it:
Bobby: "Table for Two!"
Gorilla: "Will you stop!"
Vince: "Sonuvabitch I'm gonna get sued"
Jesse: *Laughing*
Michael Cole: Vintage Foley! *Returns to blowing Vince*
Just answered that above. The plan was that a small tear would develop and Taker would stuff him through it.
ReplyDeleteSaw and interview where Foley said that the number of people that have told him they were there is like twice what the building would've held.
ReplyDeleteKind of like how about 30,000,000 people have claimed to have been at Woodstock, when really it was more like 500,000. I belive Cult is from Pittsburgh, though.
ReplyDeleteI was legit there. I actually had pretty good luck with memorable shit happening at shows I attended. KOTR 98, saw HBK/Razor 2 at SummerSlam 95 and was at the Raw in 97 when Bret made the Pittsburgh/enema joke and lost to the Patriot in the main event.
ReplyDelete2 things that I think getting truly overlooked in the match:
ReplyDelete1) the psychology with the thumbtacks. Every time you see someone about to go in, you can easily hear the crowd squeal like they don't want to see it but they really do. Once Foley goes on it, just hear the crowd's response. It's like the cherry on top in terms of brutality.
2) Lawler does not get enough credit for his announcing in that match. He knew when to be quiet and let JR speak. "What do you have to be sorry for JR?"
Art Donovan: "How much does this guy weigh?" "Why does he wear that mask?" "How much does the cage weigh?" "Why does he wear that tie?" "Who is that guy helping out the masked guy?" "How much does that table weigh?"
ReplyDeleteWe've heard it replayed a bunch of times after Foley crashes onto the table, but JR's call of "Good God Almighty, they killed him" always stuck out. Listen closely--it's definitely "THEY killed him." Who are/is "they"? Was it a Freudian slip of sorts and he blamed all of us for encouraging the pushing of the envelope? Was he blaming the people who devised the match and its script (Taker, Funk, and Foley)? Or was it just a slip of the tongue? Either way, I always had a fun inside joke with my brother about the identity of "they."
ReplyDeleteI was legit at Raw the next night which was cool.
ReplyDeletethis was the match that made me stop watching wcw.
ReplyDeleteStuff him through it and he'd just plod into the ring? That doesn't make sense. Also, explain the cable ties that fall into the ring. They weren't preserving this hole you speak of... they were holding up that entire panel of steel mesh.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that the biggest spot of all time was planned 5 minutes into the match should be enough to tell you that they weren't building to it. They never planned to top it. This was just violence icing added to an already delicious cake.
ReplyDeleteI always thought the call was "and it killed him".
ReplyDeleteThey don't go out of the way not to walk on the panel that broke. I just watched it, they fight on the right side of the cell the first time through. The entire left side is ignored until Foley climbs back up. And every panel has cable ties.
ReplyDelete"that", maybe.
ReplyDeletefirst ppv we ever ordered. watched with family and friends. i was 9. remember everything clear as day. after the ppv we rewound our tape and watched the match again, then again when it came on the encore.
ReplyDeleteI'm actually surprised, this is the first I've ever heard of anyone saying it was supposed to be unplanned, I thought Foley's first book kind of indicated he knew the chokeslam was going to put him through. Although it was definitely a botch to still have that chair up there, and have it land on Foley's face on the way down.
ReplyDeleteEverybody remembers JR's calls during this one, but the most memorable line for me was Lawler's "That's it, he's dead." Because it wasn't hype or hyperbole, it was just Lawler flat out thinking Foley was dead and you could hear him break character in his voice. I "watched" this through the glory of Scramblevision and I honestly don't regret it, because hearing it described like that and not knowing what was going on made it sound like the most brutal thing in wrestling history.
ReplyDeleteThis would sound weird coming from JR, but I always thought it was a South Park reference, as in "they killed Kenny!"
ReplyDeleteI watched the second HIAC (HHH Vs. Cactus) through scramble vision, and maybe I'm making this up because I was a kid and I can't remember clearly, but for about 30 seconds the image became almost perfectly clear as Foley lit the barbed-wire bat. It was awesome.
ReplyDeleteas is everyone who was in the audience and as is Foley, according to JR.
ReplyDeleteThey were awkwardly walking because the cage was sagging as they walked on it. It wasn't meant to hold two 300 pound guys' weight.
ReplyDeleteGoing back and watching it, two things stick out...JR and the obvious brutality. I've seen it mentioned below but JR was simply FANTASTIC. It made me feel a little queezy watching it knowing how many injuries Foley suffered during the match.
ReplyDeleteI didn't know UT had a broken foot for the match. Gives me a new appreciation for it.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone ever said how close they were to calling the match when foleys getting stretchered to the back?
ReplyDeleteThey walk on various other panels just fine, but make sure to never step on the one gimmicked for the chokeslam.
ReplyDeleteI loved when it would do that. I remember one of the minor ppvs coming in crystal clear throughout the whole thing, very awesome.
ReplyDeleteSurvivor Series 1997
ReplyDeleteTurned on Scramblevision only to be shocked by a perfectly clear picture in full color. Total fuck up by the cable company and I had to race to the closet to get a tape into the VCR in time.
I WAS LEGIT TAKING A BUMP WITH FOLEY AFTERWARDS
ReplyDeletethe first hell in a cell is what drew me back into pro wrestling after a 3-4 year hiatus as a teenager, and what steered me toward the WWF.
ReplyDelete