"What if" time Bod. First off, I hope everyone has a good and safe Thanksgiving holiday. I love this holiday...Wednesday night is always a great night to go out with friends/significant other, Thursday is full of food and football, and Friday is a great day to do nothing. Hope everyone enjoys it as much as I will.
I haven't seen the BoD this down on the product since I've been posting here. Admittedly, this hasn't been that long, but man are people down on the product. Rightfully so. Since we're headed for Cena/Orton, I wanted a "what if" that would play into that...
What if Cena gets "future endeavored" in late 2002? If you're unfamiliar with the urban legend, Cena was spinning his wheels as a generic performer in early 2002. According to scources, he was close to getting fired until he randomly started freestyle rapping on a European tour. According to the legend, Stephanie heard the freestyle rap, liked it, and a few weeks later Cenas rap gets incorporated into his gimmick. His character turns into the "rapping edgier" John Cena, his job is safe, and he subsequently rises to the top within 3 years.
Things to consider:
- Just for a time reference, 2003 was WM 19. Rocks and Austins full time careers are respectively winding down and over. HHH would soon rule the main event scene. Brock, Taker, Angle, Hogan are all hanging around the top of the card for the next year or two. None of these 4 except UT will have long term futures within the WWE.
- If Cena is axed, who gets the ball? Does WWE try harder to keep Brock and/or Angle and...gasp...Goldberg?
- Does HHH continue to be "the guy" for the next 10 years? Would we have seen 232 HBK/HHH matches by now?
- Do Orton, Batista, or Edge, rise to the undisputed top spot? Are they capable of playing this role? Is any one a better fit to be the face of the company then the others?
- Does WWE go for a slightly edgier product without the ascension of the perfect "PG babyface" leading the way?
- Was the strength of the brand strong enough that it didnt matter who the top guy was during this time? Asking it another way, could WWE have just shoved almost anyone to the top spot during this peripd and business would have been the same?
Just a jumpoff point. Go nuts.
I haven't seen the BoD this down on the product since I've been posting here. Admittedly, this hasn't been that long, but man are people down on the product. Rightfully so. Since we're headed for Cena/Orton, I wanted a "what if" that would play into that...
What if Cena gets "future endeavored" in late 2002? If you're unfamiliar with the urban legend, Cena was spinning his wheels as a generic performer in early 2002. According to scources, he was close to getting fired until he randomly started freestyle rapping on a European tour. According to the legend, Stephanie heard the freestyle rap, liked it, and a few weeks later Cenas rap gets incorporated into his gimmick. His character turns into the "rapping edgier" John Cena, his job is safe, and he subsequently rises to the top within 3 years.
Things to consider:
- Just for a time reference, 2003 was WM 19. Rocks and Austins full time careers are respectively winding down and over. HHH would soon rule the main event scene. Brock, Taker, Angle, Hogan are all hanging around the top of the card for the next year or two. None of these 4 except UT will have long term futures within the WWE.
- If Cena is axed, who gets the ball? Does WWE try harder to keep Brock and/or Angle and...gasp...Goldberg?
- Does HHH continue to be "the guy" for the next 10 years? Would we have seen 232 HBK/HHH matches by now?
- Do Orton, Batista, or Edge, rise to the undisputed top spot? Are they capable of playing this role? Is any one a better fit to be the face of the company then the others?
- Does WWE go for a slightly edgier product without the ascension of the perfect "PG babyface" leading the way?
- Was the strength of the brand strong enough that it didnt matter who the top guy was during this time? Asking it another way, could WWE have just shoved almost anyone to the top spot during this peripd and business would have been the same?
Just a jumpoff point. Go nuts.
Cena becomes the top guy vs the Authority, because jean shorts and poop jokes are rebellious. Bryan does whatever it is he's doing now, and then not much of anything after that. Cena saves the day, and somewhere down the line they have Bryan emerge as the #1 contender, possibly as a heel, with the selling point of the match being "Can Cena overcomes the odds against the man who already beat him?" - of which the answer is yes, yes he can.
ReplyDeleteWithin the wwe universe, the pin fall never occured
ReplyDeleteBecause Daniel Bryan was not originally going over. Once Cena was going out with his injury, they let Bryan go over. It seems increasingly probable that all this Corporate stuff (Orton's cash-in, HHH's turn, the new corporate group, screwjob ppv finishes, etc) was supposed to revolve around John Cena, not Daniel Bryan.
ReplyDeleteThis is a good one for sure. Their attempts to make a new "Guy", like Lesnar, Angle, Batista, Lashley et al ended in the relative short-term. Orton was unreliable early on, but probably gets an even bigger push if there is no Cena. I bet HHH is even MORE the focus of the company, because he's the only guy on the roster that Vince knows isn't going anywhere. If nothing else, Cena has been consistent for WWE as their top guy. If that never happens, I bet Vince gets really fed up with getting burned by the Lesnars and Batistas and they have the same heavy reliance on retreads and Attitude era comebacks.
ReplyDeleteIs there any proof of that? I keep seeing people say Bryan wasn't going over, but no one cites any sources that confirmed that.
ReplyDeleteWas this before or after Stephanie got into Cena's jorts?
ReplyDeleteAny chance of Punk and Bryan rushing the TLC match and taking both belts for themselves in protest at 'the norm' being back in effect? Pipe bomb #2?
ReplyDeleteYeah I know.
Holy shit... Cena overcoming the odds is FUCK GENIUS! They will never try such a good idea.
ReplyDelete#reversepsychology
Nikki Bella ends up with Orton instead of Cena
ReplyDeleteNo, that's the one over Orton.
ReplyDeleteI will never ever ever believe even for half a second that John cena was ever anywhere close to getting fired. Ever. It's completely a myth fabricated by WWE to give Cena some cool backstory, make the rapper gimmick seem like this business-altering moment, and make Stephanie seem succesful because "she heard Cena rap and knew it was money. See isn't she a GENIUS!"
ReplyDeleteIt's all bullshit. Cena looks like Vince's wet dream of a wrestler. He has the ultimate can-do, corporate-pleasing attitude that Vince craves. He had solid-enough ring skills right from teh start. And hell, they pushed him as a big deal against Angle in his first match. They were gonna get John Cena over, plain and simple. The rapper thing accelerated it with the fans, for sure, but it wasn't the "last gasp" that WWE revisionist history tries to pretend it was. This is WWE, for Chrissakes, the place where bodybuilders get a million chances to succeed. The place where BIG E LANGSTON will be pushed down everyone's throat whether we like it or not.
John cena wasn't getting fired. Stephanie wasn't the Heyman to Cena's Punk. He was gonna get pushed and get over eventually.
I demand this odds-overcoming happen in Chicago or New York. We want some really boisterous fans to cheer on Cena.
ReplyDeleteYeah then Cena gets his win back, smarks still complain.
ReplyDelete" Does HHH continue to be "the guy" for the next 10 years?"
ReplyDeleteThought this was a "What if?"?
Perhaps. I give it some credence just because I've heard two former writers, who've been subsequently let go or left, give it credence on independent podcasts. They did both say though that Steph didn't think much of it actually until some veteran pushed the issue. Might have been Regal but I forget
ReplyDeleteActually, that does make some sense. But, why let Bryan go over so clean? When Punk beat him after his "pipe bomb", there was a slight distraction involved.
ReplyDeleteAnd, wouldn't it be more compelling to have Bryan overcome all that shit and then have Cena do what he's now doing to Orton? They wouldn't have to turn either one, and presumably, it would do better than SS because Bryan would have gotten more over and come out stronger after dealing with THE AUTHORITY.
no.
ReplyDeleteBut, I would support this.
You know at this point, if I'm john cena, the next time WWE comes to me and asks me to put over an up and coming new "star", I'd straight up tell them to fuck off. Because seriously, everytime Cena goes out of his way to try and make someone WWE immediately fucks that guy over. Which kind of makes Cena look worse in comparison.
ReplyDelete- 2010: Cena jobs to Sheamus at TLC, loses the WWE title. Follow-up? Sheamus is treated as a pussy undeserving heel champ, eventually jobs to HHH at Mania 26.
- 2011, cena puts over Punk at TWO straight PPVs. (MITB and Summerslam). Follow up for Punk? Jobs to HHH's pedigree. At least Punk gets over to main event level through sheer crowd support, even though he's booked like shit for about 3 straight months after the Cena feud.
- 2012: Cena puts over Ziggler at TLC. Follow-up for Ziggler? Spends the next few months jobbing on every TV show, loses a midcard tag match at Mania, cashes in for a ONE MONTH WHC reign, and now is basically jobbing his way out of teh company. An epic waste of a Cena loss.
- 2013: Cena puts over Bryan CLEAN AS A FUCKING SHEET at Summerslam. Follow-up? Bryan jobs to a pedigree, jobs to HBK's kick, gets demeaned by HHH on every show for 3 months blah blah blah etc. Somehow they turn Bryan into less of a star than he was before Cena lost to him.
So forget the Bryan aspect specifically. How insane is it to waste these losses by your company's biggest star? Shouldn't the plan be that "somebody beats Cena, and then that somebody is treated as a megastar"? What's the point of wasting the rare Cena losses?
The source was Vince McMahon during a recent earnings call, when he called SummerSlam a "swing and a miss." The buyrate was down sharply from last year, and the blame fell to the feet of Daniel Bryan and CM Punk. http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-10-31/sports/bal-wwe-vince-mcmahon-calls-summerslam-a-swing-and-miss-20131031_1_summerslam-cm-punk-vs-pay-per-view
ReplyDeleteJericho wrote about in his book that he pushed to have Cena go over him in his first PPV match and Vince was totally against it.
ReplyDeleteIf 8 Mile doesn't come out in 2002, John Cena is fucked.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to think Cena getting fired would have resulted in a better product the last 10 years, but, yeah, Triple H. I know, Cena brings it in the ring, etc, but the character just never appealed to me once he turned face and became Malibu's Most Wanted.
Yeah. Cena is basically in Rocky's position in the early 2000s. Jobs to a dude to build up his credibility, dude turns around and eats a pedigree. The transitive property of HHH.
ReplyDeletethey go even more PG. Rey Mysterio is now your champion forever.
ReplyDeleteThat is likely true, but I'd take that over what we got and are going to get.
ReplyDeleteValid point, sir. Well said.
ReplyDeleteYea. Worst in the world makes a good point but I remember reading that. Also heard by a ex writer in a podcast that Cenas was viewed as the ugly duckling within those over callups. I'm not sure how close to getting fired he was but I'm pretty sure he was viewed pretty far behind Orton and Batista in potential star power at the time
ReplyDeleteThat article says nothing about Cena going over Bryan and that plan changing due to injury, nor does it specify the target of any blame.
ReplyDeleteGoing after single women is > chasing married trim.
ReplyDelete#morereversepsychology
Cena/Orton has a bullshit ending at "TLC", Punk wins the "Rumble", and Bryan wins in the "Chamber" - four-way elimination-style main-event at WM for the unified championships.
ReplyDeleteIt deprives us of Cena/Taker (and, really, I'd prefer Punk/Bryan for the title, Cena/Taker, and Orton nowhere near the main-event picture), but I think this would be a great main-event.
The thing is, only the Cena/Bryan match actually had a 100% clean ending. Sheamus' win was treated as a fluke, and the others all had interference (to varying degrees).
ReplyDeleteCome to think of it, I think Rock at "WM28" may have been the only other completely clean loss Cena has had since, like, "WM21". And even THAT was played more as "Cena could/would/should have won, but he got overconfident and basically allowed himself to get beat".
My reply got deleted for some reason...which seems to be happening often...but I said Cena must feel like Rocky in the early 2000s. Cena puts a dude over to build him some credibility, dude turns around, wham eats a pedigree. It's the transitive property of HHH.
ReplyDeleteSeconded. Or thirded. You know what I mean.
ReplyDeleteAgree with Angrybitterfatguy - just because Vince called it a "swing and a miss" doesn't mean that they changed the finish.
ReplyDeleteTechnically, the rating would have NOTHING to do with the finish, as the buys are based on the card presented ahead of time, not what actually happens on the card; people didn't see the finish, and then un-buy the event. Changing the finish doesn't affect how many people bought it two hours and fifty-nine minutes prior.
I misunderstood your comment. When you said "going over," I thought you meant as a draw, not against Cena.
ReplyDeleteYou can pretty much say the same thing about Jericho too.
ReplyDeleteCena's a company guy. If they tell him he's going over, he by golly goes over. Cena is the guy they go to when they want to hit the reset button. They tried with Punk, and they tried with Bryan. When ratings went down, they panicked and brought Cena back. Because they don't have anyone else. They don't have anyone else because they spent the last eight years either losing guys to Hollywood or putting Cena over.
ReplyDeleteCena's a millionaire. He doesn't need WWE anymore, they need him. It's his severe case of loyalty-itis that keeps him around. Well, that and he doesn't want to seem like a hypocrite about the way he talked about "Dwayne".
Triple H never tapped to Benoit, either. In fact, WM XX closed with The Undertaker beating Kane, and Eddie Guerrero coming out all by himself to the confetti. Right after UT's win. Makes sense to me. That's how I remember it.
ReplyDeleteFair enough. But in the name of clarity, that comment belongs to Mar Solo.
ReplyDeleteYup. :-)
ReplyDeleteI don't think there would be a whole lot of change honestly. I presume that maybe a guy like Edge would spend far more time as a babyface taking on the HHHs and Ortons of the world. HBK would probably be given another run with the WWE Championship. Maybe Jericho spends more time at the top of the card. The problem is that WWE had very little control over the guys who ended up leaving during the Cena era. Brock, Jericho, Batista and Goldberg basically left on their own accord. We all know what happened with Eddie and Benoit. They could've kept Angle and RVD around for longer if they really wanted to. They definitely would've gone PG regardless.
ReplyDeleteThe interesting thing is what would've happened to the brand, overall. Cena has been the perfect corporate guy who never even says the wrong word, much less does anything controversial in any aspect of his life. You really can't say that about anybody else.
Orton - comes off as a prick, multiple drug violations
Mysterio - injured too much, steroid issues
Undertaker - character doesn't permit it
HBK - troubled past, too old to be a long term solution
HHH - pretty dry personality, motivations always in question
Angle - drug problems
Benoit - no personality
Guerrero - troubled past
Lesnar - comes off as a disinterested prick
Goldberg - disinterested
Batista - nothing very unique about his character or personality
Edge - steroid issues, injured all the time
Jericho - comes and goes too much, wants to be a rock star first
Punk - too mouthy, appearance not corporate enough
Big Show - not interesting
SUPER BATISTA. Hunter and Shawn swap the title back and forth whenever SUPER BATISTA is out injured, Jericho jobs in more main events and less midcard matches. RVD gets far more of a push.
ReplyDeleteBut what's Cena going to do besides wrestling? Rock was 'able' to leave since he went onto a hugely successful and lucrative acting career. I guess Cena could hit up the low-budget action movie circuit but while that's a lesser workload than wrestling, it's not exactly moving onto bigger and better things.
ReplyDeleteBoth Shawn and Batista wins were clean as a whistle. The Way the Batista one didn't matter is that Cena quiet disappeared for a few months and Batista's win got close to zero mention.
ReplyDeleteThe characters bland as shit but man does imagining 10 years of this push going to Orton or Batista seems so much fucking worse. Like you said, at least Cena has brought it in big-time matches the whole way.
ReplyDeleteIs it really a case of Cena "trying" to put these guys over, or is he just following his role in the booking? While I have no doubt that Cena's reputation for non-politicizing isn't as sterling as we're lead to believe, I also think he does less backstage politicking than most big stars.
ReplyDeleteThat leaves him neutral, which in a way is as damaging as having him be a Hogan or an HHH. The way that WWE works now, Cena is the one guy (besides Undertaker, I guess) who could actually make waves in how the company books things. If Cena put his boot down about the 50-50 booking method, creative would be forced to listen. We've never gotten any sense that he's been particularly upset that Sheamus/Punk/Ziggler/Bryan got stunted after he put them over.
So that would leave the big matches for WM30 as....
ReplyDelete* Cena/Orton/Punk/Bryan for the unified world title
* Lesnar vs. Undertaker
* HHH vs. Vince's avatar...god knows who this would end up being, with so many other big names tied up. Though it occurs to me that this could be a great spot to put over Roman Reigns on the big stage.
See, that's interesting, why do you presume WWE would inevitably still go the PG route without Cena? I think a big part of their turn towards a more kid-friendly product was because they had the perfect kid-friendly star in the fold. If Cena isn't around, maybe WWE continues being edgy to this very day.
ReplyDeleteA couple things I remember from this show and the following Bash at the Beach, which were oddly enough what got me back into wrestling after Montreal:
ReplyDelete1. Karl Malone REALLY tried during his foray into the WCW. As an NBA fan, I knew Malone was one of the hardest-working men in the Association, but to see him care about what was essentially free publicity and stunt casting really made me appreciate him more. Ditto DDP, who looked like he knew this was his best chance at wrestling fame and tackled it with gusto.
2. Larry Zbyszko HATED Jericho. I'm surprised you didn't mention this, because it's my favorite part of the BATB buildup: when Malenko finally beats the tar out of Jericho, Zbyszko is on commentary not just cheering him on, but begging to take part. Imagine how much more it would add to, say, Raw's commentary if Lawler got so disgusted he was asking Daniel Bryan to let him smack Randy Orton around, for example.
3. After the Wolfpack quick squash, Luger turns to Sting and pretends to check his watch to emphasize how easy the match was. I'm with you: why wasn't it Sting/Luger? Nash didn't need the tag belts and they kinda held him back when his real issue (with Hall) wouldn't be settled until Halloween Havoc. Of course, by then, Hall's personal demons were so bad WCW was punishing him by making his character as much of a lush as he was... sorry, 15-year-old spoiler alert.
I don't know if Cena really has that kind of pull. They've been knocking others down to prop him up for years, they know if they had to they could replace him.
ReplyDeleteI find this interesting also. What was the cause and effect in the scenario?
ReplyDeleteMy guess is that WWEs business analysts saw that PG was the way to go, saw they money in advertising and sponsors of a pg product and then put Cena into the role. Cena made this transition pretty effective but I'd bet that was the direction of the promotion, with or without Cena.
I tend to agree with the theory that Cena was never as close to being fired as WWE might suggest, and they're engaging in a bit of mythmaking to make it seem like Cena Overcame The Odds just to make it in the company.
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting to speculate that happens without his hip-hop gimmick, however. Maybe he joins Batista and Orton as HHH's lackeys in Evolution.
Random thought: Since Corporate Kane hasn't done much since turning...couldn't they do a swerve where he was actually a mole trying to take down the authority to eventually help out his buddy Bryan?
ReplyDeleteOr at the very least, eventually have Bryan feud with HHH again and have Kane have a Darth Vader at the end of Jedi style change of heart as he watches Bryan get beat down.
1. Linda McMahon was running for office whether Cena was around or not.
ReplyDelete2. WWE going public as a corporation would eventually necessitate a more mainstream, family-friendly approach.
3. Concussions, steroids, and wrestler deaths would eventually result in the violence being toned way down.
4. The aftermath of NippleGate, coupled with sponsor and shareholder pressure, clearly brought the sexual content down in the mid 2000s.
The fact that John Cena was around made the turn to PG work from a bottom-line standpoint, where it might not have otherwise. However, it was going to happen anyway, whether Vince wanted it or not, given the factors I listed above.
There was no keeping Lesnar. Lesnar had other opportunities and wouldn't stick around for any money. he hated the travel. Instead, Kurt Angle would have been the man, and WWE would not have let him go for any amount of money. They would have essentially written him a blank check to stay. Also, Benoit would have gotten a longer push. This means when his sad events happened, he very well could have been a main eventer, which would have been even worse news for WWE.
ReplyDeleteI feel "big butts" should be in there somewhere
ReplyDeleteUnrelated image:
ReplyDeletehttp://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/photoshop/4/5/3/453_slide.jpg?v=2
(Jef safe)
I'm still chuckling about this as I type. I fucking hate MS.
I posted this elsewhere, but I'm still giggling about it and it seems apt to your comment.
ReplyDeletehttp://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/photoshop/4/5/3/453_slide.jpg?v=2
Wait...you can use the PS3 browser for "legit" feeds? Which ones? I'd love to be able to watch on my TV instead of my laptop. Feel free to email me with links....todd@toddlorenz.com. Thanks in advance.
ReplyDeleteHe'd probably be a more realistic Cena. A underdog that would overcome any odds seems to be more believable in my eyes.
ReplyDeletePlus cutting the cheese is slang for farting
ReplyDeleteCena was originally much edgier.
ReplyDeleteThat's the funny thing about Batista, his character was much worse than Cena's, had so many blunders in the ring, yet the fans were solidly behind Batista no matter what.
ReplyDeleteJust buy the wi-fi adaptor for the 360 you have now, I picked one up used for about $25. Call around though, I've seen them go for as much as $60 used.
ReplyDeleteI feel that if Cena was fired, the main focus would have been HHH running the top of the card. Then when he felt it was time, he would put his guys like Orton and Batista as the new face of the company or something like that. It would still be Trips world and he would show us what would be best for business.
ReplyDeleteOh, for fuck's sake...I whiffed on that completely, and it's totally in line with his stupid character.
ReplyDeleteBecause the last unification match that Cena had with a hot rival failed to set the world on fire.
ReplyDeleteThe Word Life DVD is proof of that.
ReplyDeleteAs I've said elsewhere, I noticed that when he listed the "greats" he didn't mention his corporate champion.
ReplyDeleteHe did make sure to mention himself though.
"To be a bad guy on television you have to be kind of a bad guy in real life."
ReplyDeleteTrust me, Cena has pull. I have three words for you: Make A Wish.
Why should Cena keep doing that? I can think of many, many millions of reasons that would overflow his gynourmous swimming pool why.
ReplyDeleteFinancial security means that one doesn't NEED to do anything.
ReplyDeleteThread jack: I am liking Jef's new avatar.
ReplyDelete"I heard his ROH run was bad"
ReplyDeleteThat's one way to put it. Another way would be to call it a complete fucking disaster that nearly killed the company. They still haven't fully recovered, and he's been gone for a year now.
That's actually not the worst idea I've ever heard.
ReplyDeleteSerenity now, insanity later...
ReplyDelete300+ sick kids are gonna make Vince an offer he can't refuse?
ReplyDeleteIt's not bad. It would not surprise me if they went with it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, as for sports games, Microsoft has said they plan on supporting the 360 for at least a couple more years, though who knows if they actually follow through with that (they cut support for the original XB the second the 360 was released, basically). No idea how long they plan on keeping XBLive running though. Not sure about the PS3, but EA was still making PS2 games until... what, last year?
ReplyDeleteLike I said below, getting the Wi-Fi adapter for the 360 would be the most cost-effective option, but if sports games are that important the PS3 might be the better way to go based on previous history. If all you care about is Netflix then just get a VGA or HDMI cable and hook your computer itself to the TV.
Who would Edge's arch nemesis be though? Does Matt hardy finally get elevated to the main event?
ReplyDeleteMalone really is surprising me. I remember watching the PPV match and he did about as well as a celebrity could do out there. I mean he's not Lou Thesz or anything but he had clearly taken the time and learned what he was doing. That's impressive.
ReplyDeleteEXCUSE ME!!!
ReplyDeleteIt was actually real. He fell into the water though and not onto the concrete - not that it would have mattered either way
ReplyDeleteNo, Matt Hardy is not a main eventer. The feud with Edge and Matt just happened to strike gold at the right time. But I can't imagine any scenario where Matt hardy stays a main eventer long term. He doesn't have the talent. If Cena was gone, there would be a perfect opportunity for Jeff to step up to the plate though. He'd probably ruin it with his drug use though. Kurt Angle had massive problems with drugs, but I bet if Cena was gone, WWE would put up with it because Angle would mean too much. Hell, they put with HBk from 96-98. I'm guessing Edge's nemesis would be a combination of Angle, Orton, and Triple H in this scenario.
ReplyDeleteI looked it up on The History of WWE website and it looks like they were subbing him in matches post-Rumble. In fact, at a Hartford Civic Center house show on January 27th, refunds were offered because he was not on the card. Looking at the results, Shawn did not wrestle after the Rumble until WrestleMania, although he made token appearances (http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/98.htm).
ReplyDeleteSo yeah, it looks like they were aware of Shawn's injury, yet promoted him anyway. Good ol' Vinnie Mac at it again!
Except he can't overcome his own body, drug addiction, or stupidity.
ReplyDeleteIf you want baseball PS3 is the only way to go. MLB The Show is the best baseball game on the market and I don't think 2K is even releasing there baseball game in 2014.
ReplyDeleteHis TNA run was pretty good until Russo got added to the team and they started fighting.
ReplyDeleteDo the ratings actually noticeably go up when Cena is on TV? If Cena is the 'safe' option and the ratings are just as bad when he's on than where Daniel Bryan or CM Punk are in the same spot then what's the difference?
ReplyDeleteIf you're truly just interested in streaming Netflix, you could do that with a $75 Blu-Ray player that offers Netflix and keep the current Xbox 360 for gaming.
ReplyDeleteHe actually mentions that in the media release:
ReplyDeleteAfter a hiatus, Jim Cornette and KC have come together and agreed to produce 2 projects for release in 2014 and
2015 respectively. Cornette's appearances on KC shows Timeline WWE, YouShoot, and Guest Booker have
universally been lauded as some of the best shoot-style programming by critics and fans alike. Cornette released
the following statement: "I've enjoyed working with Kayfabe Commentaries in the past on several
critically-acclaimed productions," Cornette began. [b]"I'm pleased to announce that Sean Oliver and I, after a rough
patch last year, have removed the wedge between us driven there by an unnamed third party,[/b] and I have signed
on to shoot two more videos with KC this fall. They (the programs) are shaping up, in concept, to be the most
interesting yet, and they'll be produced in conjunction with my appearance at the Legends of the Ring convention
in New Jersey on October 5th, which will be my second and last wrestling-related appearance of 2013."
If said third party is not a Russo, I'd be shocked.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't COMPLETELY clean. Hogan could say he was distracted by Hennig/Page and Malone...
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMRrNY0pxfM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
ReplyDeleteOutside of wrestling message boards, fans weren't turning on Trips at all, unless by turning on him you mean cheering him over Cena in their feud.
ReplyDeleteI remember Batista getting booed as a face against 'Taker (of course), Mr Kennedy (Royal Rumble 2007) and, strangely enough, Umaga (WrestleMania 24). During his original main event push, I remember him getting in a match against Christian on an England episode of RAW.
ReplyDeleteSeconded on MLB The Show. It's so many worlds better than 2K's version.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if you've had an X-Box up until now, there's a whole new world of games for the PS3 to experience, even as a casual fan. Given the way Sony supported the PS2, you'll be able to get games for the PS3 for a while.
1989 WCW with Cornette sounds fantastic Whenever that gets filmed and released, I vote for that one.
ReplyDeleteSo, someone just went through a downvoted everyone who wanted Beefcake?
ReplyDeleteIn his defense, you can easily name a memorable Triple H title reign, particularly his reign where he beat Cactus Jack twice and walked out of Wrestlemania as champ.
ReplyDeleteNow name a memorable reign of Orton's.
A McMahon In Every Corner II? Filling in for Shane and Linda, two of Trip's and Steph's daughters.
ReplyDeleteProbably cult.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Hogan referenced the loss again for a good while, which was one of his big problems.
ReplyDeleteRemember there was a guy on the booking committe who said Cena suggested he not lose on his way to Mania 28 vs the Rock, and he didn't? I think any star of his stature has significant say in who he does a job for.
ReplyDeleteWhy should he? He main evented the next 3 PPVs anyway. That was the problem. Goldberg/Hogan for free on Nitro wasn't the problem. Hogan continuing to hog the limelight and nothing REALLY changing was the problem.
ReplyDeleteI like it. For as long as Hell No teamed (in WWE time, an eternity) it seems they deserved a better explanation and/or blow-off.
ReplyDeleteVery valid points. I can understand the old days when guys like Hogan and Flair didn't want to put people over unless they were personally sold on that person being "the guy". I never LIKED it, but I sort of get it. These days I don't know why any top guy would get excited about putting someone over, given how WWE fucks things up in the aftermath
ReplyDeleteI suppose I could be remembering things wrong, but IIRC:
ReplyDelete1) Ratings were dropping generally, and consistently, until about 2006 or so, when the ascensions of Cena/Batista/Edge started to stem the bleeding a bit.
2)Fans frequently chanted "boring" and/or "what" during his constant 20 minute promos.
3) The biggest Mania during that period (or, you know, ever) was the one he didn't compete at.
If I'm wrong, I apologize, but to my recollection Triple H taking the belt back from Orton in '04 wasn't exactly setting the world on fire until the Batista feud... which, let's face it, had a lot more to do with fans wanting to get behind Batista (evidenced by the way they stayed behind him) then it did with fans wanting more Triple H.
And, come on, who doesn't get cheered against Cena? I mean besides Orton.
The one where he beat Chris Benoit and lost the title the next month to Triple H!
ReplyDeleteThanks for the replies all! You've been very informative!
ReplyDeleteI went with the Beefer, too, on the polling site. Still, all three of those sound really entertaining and/or absurd. I'd like to see each of them get reviewed at some point.
ReplyDeleteI can hear HHH screaming "NO BACKSIES!!" as he runs out of the room.
ReplyDeleteI can see Vince more irate if everyone started calling him "Coco".
ReplyDeleteWasn't he the first one to gave Jacobs a shot back in SMW too?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I've always had my doubts about that story. A kid walks in with that work ethic, positive attitude and killer physique, and WWE's just going to let him walk? The same WWE of the endless Billy Gunn pushes? Not bloody likely.
ReplyDeleteCena may very well be the most low-maintenance main-eventer in WWE history. He's a company man through and through, delivers the goods in the ring when it counts, does EXACTLY what he's told with nary a complaint (although I have no doubt that he'll use some clout if he deems it necessary), stays out of trouble, is a reliable merchandise stream and the perfect clean-cut corporate front man always ready with a smile and a quip. Which is why, all things being equal, I'm not sure you can just stick Rey or Edge or Batista in that spot and get the same or equal results. Much like Hogan in 1984 and Hall and Nash in 1996, Cena was the exact right guy at the exact right time and taking him out of the equation changes everything.
I thought the HBK/Owen concussion angle was great. Then again, those are my 2 favorite wrestlers, that angle could have been about one's dog shitting on the other's lawn and I would have loved it.
ReplyDeleteThe New Gen era certainly gets a lot of love today when no one actually gave a shit at the time.
ReplyDeleteHe certainly didn't take a step back from when he came back in 07 until the middle of 09. It was basically main event baby face trips in between his two DX periods with HBK.
ReplyDeleteCornette's are awesome because of his notebooks with the attendance, gate, and card for every show. Well, not just because of that of course, but those notebooks are awesome. Little things like having someone's name scratched out and the story behind why. The Timeline format also helps reign Corny in from the tangents he likes to go on.
ReplyDeleteI think it goes back to being similar to the New Generation Era where there was never THE GUY in the company.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I loved Batista as the genre-savvy face who's always a step ahead of the heels. His WM21 angle was perfect.
ReplyDeleteYeah. Jacobs wrestled as Unabomb down there and wrestled the Undertaker at a July 1995 SMW show.
ReplyDeleteCena likes Bryan? Plus they are potential brothers in law, and Bryan will never be a true threat to Cena cause...look at Bryan, and then look at Cena.
ReplyDeleteThat theory makes a LOT of sense.
TJ: NXT comes highly recommended this week.
ReplyDeleteThe part of the equation that everyone is ignoring is Benoit. After Benoit, WWE needed to find the kid friendly, drug free, vanilla, white bread babyface to build the company around. There is no Cena substitute. All the other top guys had issues with drugs or are like Punk and are just unfriendly, non media friendly people in general. Miz is their 2nd best guy at doing "Cena stuff" (media, talk shows, promotion, meeting with kids) behind Cena but it would be years before he'd be ready to go. Orton, Punk, Taker, Lesnar, Batista can't do what Cena can do. Maybe Mysterio could have but he had his drug issues and injury problems. Maybe if Rey was the top guy he never gets tagged for drug issues but that's an entirely different conversation.
ReplyDeleteThe 2nd best option behind Cena to take the edge off the product and appeal to all ages is HHH as sad as that is to say. HHH would have been the big winner of a John Cena-less world.
Things like work ethic, physique, amd killer attitude are irrelevant unless you get over. All this stuff will get you more chances but if you can't get over it doesn't matter. It's like saying if a baseball pitcher can throw 95 and has a good curve, he's gonna be a great pitcher. He's gonna get opportunities but if he can't throw strikes or is a head case it doesn't matter. Think of all the big lugs who've washed out in wwe.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I'm not sure how close he actually was to getting fired though either. Its so weird a random thing like a freestyle rap can start an ascension. I wish I was a subscriber to Meltzer at the time to go back and look at what he had to say about Cenas employment status.
There has to be a heel. Cena - Bryan won't sell like hotcakes because there is no heat. Wrestling 101.
ReplyDeleteAs opposed to this world where HHH wasn't the big winner?
ReplyDeleteGranted, but it's not like he was Billy Gunn with endless gimmick changes and reboots. If WWE's story is to be believed, they took a look at this handsome rookie with the body of a Greek god, an insane work ethic and a willingness to learn and be whatever they needed him to be and said "nope, can't do a thing with THIS loser!" and were ready to cut him until Stephanie The Fourth-generation Genius heard him rap and had an epiphany. That's a bit too much for me to buy into, you know?
ReplyDeleteThis might be the best post I've seen here.
ReplyDeleteRemember when people shit on different main-eventers for refusing certain jobs? This post is why.
Yea, I don't disagree. I think he would have floundered around for awhile then who knows. I heard a two former writers on a podcast give the story credence, but I'm not sure how close he was ever getting fired. It was funny because both of them claimed Steph didn't think a rapping gimmick was worth anything, she only bought into it after being pushed by a veteran to run with it...think Regal IIRC. You'd think she wrote the rap and saved Cenas life the way it's portrayed.
ReplyDeleteI always think it's weird that people assume Cena couldn't have a good movie career. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't. One half-decent role is all it would take. And then the WWE would really have some regrets.
ReplyDeleteWe still have porn at least.
ReplyDeleteI didn't like Batista as a face. The tight tank tops and white pants made him look like a douche years before he was trying to be a douche.
ReplyDeleteYup, he would put Reigns over on the big stage just like he did Sheamus and Brock: by beating him clean at WM, followed by a loss at Extreme Rules for 1/4th of the PPV audience. I know he's laid down at Wrestlemania a few times before, I just have no confidence in him truly putting someone over now.
ReplyDeleteI think Jericho stays if they go all the way with him. I don't know if face Jericho in 2005 could become the star he seemed destined to be in 2000 but his reasons for leaving in 2005 had a lot to do with his careering going nowhere.
ReplyDeleteHow sad that I completely forgot that Ziggler even went over Cena.
ReplyDeleteThis is true though. After the piece of shit that was The Scorpion King, most people assumed Rock wouldn't get to a huge level in the movie business, now he's one of the biggest action movie stars in the country.
ReplyDeleteAll it takes is one serious injury like what happened to Edge, or just get the Hollywood itch like Rock and its so long
I want Nash just for the discussion it will provide. I like the "Is Nash an asshole who ruined wrestling or is he a cool smart dude who did the best he could" debate.
ReplyDeleteNo one ever sends me a tryout. I would love nothing better.
ReplyDeleteThe dog shit bit was funny. Nice.
ReplyDeleteBut, the angle was different back then. As a society, we weren't aware of long term problems now associated with concussions. Guys are killing themselves and their brains are showing significant damage....there's a book and corresponding PBS special that really quite damning about how the NFL chose to ignore the problem.
But, as I said in reference to something else, it's all a matter of taste and opinion.
Look at Bryan and look at Cena? Really? With that theory, you could say the same about any number of smallish guys, starting with Rey, Bret, HBK and really, even Austin compared to some of the bigger guys of his day. Hell, why would anyone EVER beat Show or Taker? How did Savage ever go over Andre? C'mon now. Underdog stories can work; we've seen it over and over again.
ReplyDeleteThe brother in law thing isn't particularly relevant. This is an industry that has brothers go at each other regularly. I fully expect to see Cody vs Goldust at WM or sooner.
But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
No, there doesn't. WM12 & WM6 featured main events that lacked heels at the time. Would it always work? No. Would it have worked in this case? We will probably never know.
ReplyDeleteYeah, those HBK vs Undertaker matches at Wrestlemania 25 and 26 had no heat at all!
ReplyDeleteAnd Goldberg didn't get a meaningful PPV match until Halloween Havoc at that.
ReplyDeleteYeah, but in a parallel universe Benoit might not have the same ending. It wouldn't be a good one either way, but maybe not *that* one.
ReplyDeleteCena was going nowhere fast, he turned heel and basically became a jobber. He was the guy cowering in the back at the sight of Brock Lesnar before he threw Matt Hardy through a wall
ReplyDeleteI think Batista would have been on the media circuit, ditto for Edge. Edge, in fact, so quick on his feet he might have even been better at it than Cena.
ReplyDeleteI mean, there was though. It just changed a couple times. It was Hart, then it was Diesel, then it was Michaels. They might not have been "best for business," but each of them had a turn carrying the company, for better or worse.
ReplyDeleteBoth also required character contortions from Michaels to work, including acting like Jesus to Undertaker's Satan and putting his career on the line. UT Wrestlemania matches aren't about the feud.
ReplyDeleteWarrior - Hogan was admittedly an exception. XII on the other hand required a gimmick to get the heat.
ReplyDeleteThere have been a *lot* of great face vs. face feuds; they don't have to be heatless. About half of HBK's feuds post-comeback were face/face (vs. Cena, vs. Batista, vs. Flair, vs. Taker, vs. Jericho (for a while), vs. Hogan (minus the awesome Montreal promo, but HBK was still a face in the crowd's eyes), vs. Benoit, etc. etc.).
ReplyDeleteJust sticking to HBK, he also had face/face feuds with Hart and Razor that were excellent. I think he might have had a PPV face/face match against Bulldog, too, but wouldn't swear to it. Oh! And he had that awesome KOTR match against Austin when they were both faces and the heat for that was off the charts.
What if we had cameras installed at WWE's offices?
ReplyDeleteTriple H: "Well, where are we going to get our ideas from? Her!?"
Stephanie: "Um, how about... Ghost... Punk?"
Uh, what sense would it make for John Cena to challenge Daniel Bryan to a unification match when - as you said - Cena lost cleanly? I mean, when Cena lost to The Rock he lost because he made a stupid mistake. He flat-out got beat by Bryan.
ReplyDeleteHBK vs Undertaker works because they hadn't wrestled in years, and were two icons. I really don't think Bryan vs Cena compares to that feud even slightly.
ReplyDeleteWhat he means is that Bryan was never going to take Cena's spot, so why should Cena object to losing? This isn't Warrior-Hogan where the latter could have actually lost his spot. Cena, with or without the title, is still the man.
ReplyDeleteIt's a problem because he treated the world title like it was nothing. Hogan lost it and just kept going about his life. A match against Jay Leno shouldn't trump the world title in kayfabe.
ReplyDeleteThis post will fall upon deaf ears, but whatever, I'm going to say it again anyway.
ReplyDeleteJohn Cena is today's Bob Backlund. Just like Backlund, wrestling fans were waiting for a new face to take over.
...Brother.
Nah....even if it was the greatest match ever, people would still bitch and moan about "SuperCena" winning again.
ReplyDeleteI gotta give you an up vote on that one.
ReplyDeleteExactly my point. Sure, giving away the match for free on Nitro wasn't the smartest idea but booking Hogan as if he WERE the champion afterward was much more damming to the product. Hogan should've faded away after losing to the red and black while Goldy rocketed into the stratosphere...twas not to be tho.
ReplyDeleteDon't doubt he was viewed as the 'ugly ducking' out of that OVW crop (this is WWE, after all), but still shocking given how inferior his contemporaries there are/were for the most part.
ReplyDelete@ #4 Someones forgetting Rodman being Drunk off his ass at Bash at the Beach 98
ReplyDeleteMeh, even that wouldn't have been the end of the world, except that Goldberg didn't even get a real match at Road Wilid. He was just there in a weirdly booked battle royal with the two NWO factions, jackhammered Giant, and that was pretty much it. They didn't even book Goldberg as a main eventer until the lead in to Starrcade.
ReplyDeleteTrue
ReplyDeleteBut he did lose, several times. He lost twice to Punk, and even lost to friggin' Tensai.
ReplyDeleteGranted, they weren't completely clean, but it's not like he bulldozed them, either.
As much sense as it made for Cena to get a shot at Del Rio's belt upon returning from injury.
ReplyDeleteDel Rio almost killed Santa Clause, that's not something Cena can forget.
ReplyDelete