>
> Hey Scott, to celebrate the launch of the WWE network next week, how about a quick list of the essential ppvs newer fans should view 1st.
> Also, would love for u to redo rants of WM 17 and GAB 89 to decide which is the greatest PPV of all time.
I personally will be watching the full version of Bash 89 as soon as I can, but WWE already put a pretty good list of essential PPVs up a little while ago. I suspect that with all the filler edited back into the Bash, WM X7 will win handily.
> Hey Scott, to celebrate the launch of the WWE network next week, how about a quick list of the essential ppvs newer fans should view 1st.
> Also, would love for u to redo rants of WM 17 and GAB 89 to decide which is the greatest PPV of all time.
I personally will be watching the full version of Bash 89 as soon as I can, but WWE already put a pretty good list of essential PPVs up a little while ago. I suspect that with all the filler edited back into the Bash, WM X7 will win handily.
"I still can't see him as anything but the great El Generico..."
ReplyDeleteSomehow I don't see this being an issue in terms of introducing him as a new character, considering most of the Raw audience doesn't know him as Sami Zayn, much less know that he used to be El Generico in the indies.
Have his match with Cesaro at Arrival end on a fluke or shenanigans with Cesaro going over, Zayn shows up on Raw to get revenge on the big stage, announcers put him over, etc.
ReplyDeleteFuck the Botch Cara gimmick.
I like the El Generico gimmick, but it sort of has always scream 'indie' to me. I think that's part of the appeal, but from everything I've seen about Sami, I think he has a better chance to be over without the mask.
ReplyDeleteI'm curious, do people still chant 'ole' at him? That might be the only thing I'd keep.
Here's what they should do: change his name from Sami Zayn to Jacque Amole, and promote him as the first French Canadian-Latino superstar ever. Have him wrestle and act in the stereotypical French gimmicks (berets, fruity dancing), but when it's time for him to make his hope spot comebacks, pull out a Lucha-style mask and start flashing highspots. His finisher could be the Avocado Dipper, without any explanation needed.
ReplyDeleteI think it's time to take WM-17 down a peg. Backlash 2000 was better (as were most PPVs during 2000), and SummerFest '98 was one of the better Russo-era PPVs. I'd put it over WM-17 just because the build was better.
ReplyDeleteHere's my required list:
ReplyDeleteWCW Spring Stampede 94, Slamboree 94, Bash at the Beach 94, GAB 95, 96, Bash at the Beach 96, Halloween Havoc 96, Superbrawl VIII.
WWF Summerslam 98, Backlash 99 and I'll think of more later.
I got a ppv version of Bash 89 a few years ago during my tape trading days. It's the only version of the show I've ever seen and it's a great show, but I still prefer X-7. I like Canadian Stampede more, in fact. There's a lot of nostalgia wrapped up in those two wwf shows for me and none in the bash, so I'm sure many will still prefer the bash.
ReplyDeleteRequired List: Bash '89 and '90, WrestleWar '91 and '92, Spring Stampede and Slamboree '94, Barely Legal '97, Heatwave '99, and WrestleMania X-7. Give me those shows and I can live happy, since SMW episodes are in their entirety on YouTube right now.
ReplyDeleteWWE could get sponsorship from Capcom and turn him into the real EL FUERTE~! Or not. IF they did Zayn would totally get it over.
ReplyDeleteI think they could bring up SZ for a while and have him feud with Cesaro on raw. Sami loses a loser leaves town match & comes back as El Generico in a Mr America type situation where everyone knows who's really under the mask.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I think Scott's right that Sami doesn't need the generico gimmick to get over.
Any word on the Clash of the Champions being available? I'd love to see a replay of the trailer for Lyle Alzado's "Learning the Ropes". That, and all of Clash XVII.
ReplyDeleteI cannot fathom why anyone thinks the WWE should resurrect El Generico. It's a comedy gimmick that got over with audiences who were in on the joke because Rami is a great wrestler. In the WWE, great wrestling doesn't matter, so if you make him El Generico, you're basically dooming him to a career as the "LOL REDHEADED WHITE GUY WHO THINKS HE'S A LUCHADOR" partner of Khali and Hornswoggle.
ReplyDeleteThe reason that I don't want to see El Generico is because I think it will be reduced to another Santino, and be stuck in that spot. He has a lot of potential.
ReplyDeleteThose two (WM X-7 and Bash 89) were already pegged as my first watches when I got the network. I've never seen the latter, so I'll be interested in seeing it, as well as a lot of other NWA/WCW stuff that I've never seen - which is pretty much everything prior to 1997.
ReplyDelete"great wrestling doesn't matter"
ReplyDeleteThis is untrue.
SummerSlam98? A bit of a surprise. Decent show but aside from the Take vs. Austin and Rock vs HHH, pretty forgettable, no?
ReplyDeleteJacques Rougeau's nephew!
ReplyDeleteI fear I'm gonna rewatch awesome stuff I've already seen rather than stuff like Bash '89 I've never seen in its entirety.
ReplyDeleteNo, most 2000 PPVs were not better than WM X7.
ReplyDeleteHow about just booking him in a match and let him do what he does best?
ReplyDeleteNo, X-7 is far better than Summerslam 98, and Summerslam 98 is one of my favourite shows.
ReplyDeleteThe product as a whole was better.
ReplyDeleteSummerslam 1998 is is probably one of the early peaks of the Attitude Era, and is certainly in the discussion for one of the better Summerslams ever (with 1991, 1992, 2001, 2002, 2008 and 2013). The matches ranged from pretty good to awesome (even the overrated ladder match is very good), and the characters were big time over. It was a good time to be a fan.
ReplyDeleteJust let him do this spot on Raw or PPV a few times: http://i.minus.com/i3yS9kuGeAjMy.gif
ReplyDeleteHis incredibly moveset combined with his extremely likable look and personality will get him over as a babyface in no time. No additional gimmicks needed.
HERECY! CRAZY TALK! Seriously why don't you just join Al Qaeda!
ReplyDeleteIf you were on a deserted island, and you had a choice of:
ReplyDeleteRumble, No Way Out, Backlash, Judgment Day, King of the Ring, Fully Loaded, No Mercy, and Armageddon (from 2000)
or
Rumble, No Way Out, Wrestlemania X-7, Backlash, King of the Ring, the July 9 Raw, Invasion, and Summerslam (from 2001)
Which lot would you take?
2000 I guess. Though King of the Ring sucks. Armageddon isn't that great either. But Backlash, KOTR 01 and the July 9 Raw aren't worth watching
ReplyDeleteSure, I don't think I picked the absolute best shows from either years, but it was a hypothetical...see which timeframe he liked more.
ReplyDeleteSorry yeah umm clearly the best option is to debut him in a squash against Sheamus setting him on the path of a mammoth losing streak because we all know a losing streak = money
ReplyDeleteThat's better!
ReplyDelete:: Stops dialing The Department Of Homeland Security... for now ::
I am now fully behind losing streaks, schizophrenic authority figures and of course the 50/50 booking.
ReplyDeleteGetting over on the strength of his wrestling... what was I thinking.
Its ok, thanks to me you have seen the light and have been... SAVED!
ReplyDelete#livethegimmick #bodmania #itisdumbtousehashtagshere
I'd imagine not since they aren't PPV telecasts. That content will probably roll out later. If they had the old Clashes and a little bit of older TV for ECW, WCW, AWA, etc. then I'd be more willing to buy this Network on day 1. As I said in the thread yesterday, I'm just not too intrigued to get it out of the gate until this WM card gets finalized and I have already seen most of these pay-per-views except a couple of the ECW ones (like Guilty as Charged '99).
ReplyDeleteIn retrospect, the show is kinda of forgettable from those two matches, but it does have some historical moments like Edge's ppv debut (as Magnum noted below), Owen's last SummerSlam, and Jarrett loses the long hair look for good.
ReplyDeleteThe show had an awesome build, which was arguably one of the best the WWE ever did (I still remember the awesome Highway to Hell video package), and a lot of the feuds were blown off really well.
I'm personally starting with every Starrcade. The new fan I'd point to '85.
ReplyDeletePrep yourself for one of the worst guest refereeing jobs in history for the '83 main event!
ReplyDeleteNo, it's true. Maybe slightly less now than in the past, but how objectively good you are in the ring has very little if anything to do with how management or creative see you nor with your success in the company.
ReplyDeleteFor example: Chris Jericho and Chris Benoit providing a little bone-throw to the internet nerds in the midcard in 2001 while Cripple H and The Rock topped cards. Daniel Bryan feuding with Kane while Randy Orton and John Cena work the main events. And that's two off the top of my head. The list is endless.
And that's not even a knock on anyone. Randy Orton is a great seller, Cena is far better than people are through his staleness, The Rock was good even when phoning it in before he went part-time and Triple H's only really bad in ring period was when he was bloated like Scott Steiner after he returned in 2002.
However, objectively, as a performer being judged on the merits we're judging Zayn on here, Jericho, Benoit and Bryan were better than them all.
I'm not familiar with any of the UK only PPVs besides the first one that had the controversy with HBK/Davey Boy Smith. Anyone have any insight into which ones are worth checking out?
ReplyDeleteYeah, and see that makes my personal collection already better than the library of WWE Network, because not only do I have all the Clashes, I've got all the TV episodes of Nitro from 1995-1999, and all the Raws from 1997-2005.
ReplyDeleteSo do I want to pay the 50 bucks considering I won't see Wrestlemania and might have network problems with the other shows? Not to mention...I don't care for pre and post-shows for Raw and Smackdown, nor do I care much for the Legends' House.
Plus, their countdowns? Take them or leave them. For example, Shawn Michaels is one of the greatest athletes of all time, but he's not that big of a draw...so he's not the greatest Superstar of all time.
I was at Rebellion 02.
ReplyDeleteIt was headlined by a passable Edge Vs Lesnar with Heyman match that is fine if not spectacular.
What is worth seeking out is the Benoit/Angle Vs Los Guerreros tag match which is everything you'd expect from a match involving those 4 in the middle of the Smackdown Six run
Every time I think of the "wrestling shows for a deserted island" question, I think "Armageddon 1999, Fully Loaded 1998, and perhaps Royal Rumble 2000. If you all catch my drift!!
ReplyDeleteI only saw it once, and I know it "made" 2 careers, but... Was the actual HHH/Rock ladder match THAT good? All I remember is a bunch of super slow climbing, and a ladder assisted people's elbow.
ReplyDeleteDid wrestling in the mask actually HELP his WWE chances? Psychologically within WWE management, perhaps the lack of unmasked Generico footage from the indys makes them think of Zayn as "theirs", whereas others (Hero, Castignolli, Bryan previously) still have "indy stink" on them.
ReplyDeleteCapital Carnage 98 has Jacqueline's boobies in still probably the least censored/covered bit of wwe nudity ever.
ReplyDeleteThe Full Sail folk appear to be fully aware of his previous gimmick.
ReplyDeleteBut that aside, I think GSP and the Canadiens get "ole" chants as well, so it's not a total reach to chant "ole" at the French-Canadian guy.
I forget which one, but there was a pretty good HHH vs Rock vs Brock Lesnar main event.
ReplyDeleteThat's a totally fair assessment, but it's still four stars in my book.
ReplyDeleteI have a feeling that might be edited...
ReplyDeleteI'm marathoning classic nWo right away. GAB 96 to Halloween Havoc 96.
ReplyDeleteIf it's edited, we riot!
ReplyDeleteBewbz.
ReplyDeleteThat's Global Warning Tour in Melbourne, Australia. August 2002.
ReplyDeleteI saw him at a house show back in October. He came out to silence (save for a few OLE chants). By the end of a ten minute match with Swagger, he was receiving a very nice reaction and the fans were into him. That's a good sign.
ReplyDeleteGod yes. The slowest counts in wrestling history, and it just killed the flow that Flair and Race had established. I thought Harley was legitimately going to kill him at one point.
ReplyDeleteI've said it before, but Capital Combat 1990 is my first stop. Classic Midnight Express, Steiner Brothers, & Doom tag team wrestling, and Flair-Luger.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget Robocop!
ReplyDeleteAgree 100% with this. It's not that I think the concept of the Network is faulty, but they really could open up their library to make this network fun. Like some have suggested, they could devote 6:05-8:05 on Saturday nights to older episodes of WCW Saturday Night and show old episodes of Heat or something on Sunday evening. They could have a rotating stream of content and updated the "season" catalog as they go through so you could watch older episodes if you missed when they aired. They don't have to give away the ENTIRE library, but they could stagger content correctly if they thought harder about this.
ReplyDeleteBut no. Instead, we are getting their "cutting edge" original programming that I really don't care that much about. It's not surprising since this company wants to be something other than a wrestling company, but I really don't know how they plan on filling the rest of their hours since this is supposed to be a 24/7 Network. I'm expecting lots of replays of older shows (e.g. 2-3 showings of Legends House that we missed) instead of actually using the library to fill those dead hours of content.
Yeah. When I come across that match from time to time, I almost think its a triple threat!
ReplyDeleteSami Zayn is the sort of guy "Pull an audience member out of the crowd to challenge a heel, audience guy gets shocking win and reveals he's a trained pro wrestler" type things are made for. Sort of like Santino vs Umaga except tweaked since NXT is acknowledged as part of the universe. Maybe have him on an episode of Raw with a few NXT dude's, some really dangerous heel who's on a role invites one of the NXT kids into the ring for a match, he gets a whuppin' on him for a bit only for Sami to shockingly kick his face off and get a roll up win. Bam. Feud launched.
ReplyDeleteI've seen Scott LeDoux in action, and even he is better than Kiniski.
ReplyDeleteHe's going to make his money in selling like a mofo. He needs to take beatings but just keep fighting, pop his comeback then hit his finish out of no where.
ReplyDeleteI'm looking forward to seeing the entire first three Starrcade cards, as well as MITB 2011. Plus I've never seen the Wrestling Classic, so for nostalgia I'm looking forward to that too.
ReplyDeleteAnd come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen ANY ECW PPV, so that will be fun.
This list of PPV content on wwe.com does not list the Clashes, which is too bad because a lot of those Clashes were awesome.
ReplyDeleteAn Attitude Era show I always think is underrated is St. Valentine's Day Massacre. I really enjoyed Owen/JJ vs Mark/D'lo, Kane/Chyna vs HHH/Xpac (SK gave it ****... highest-rated Chyna match?), Mankind vs Rock Last Man Standing, and while SCSA vs Mr. McMahon wasn't much of a "match", I thought it was entertaining Entertainment. And Bob Holly vs Al Snow is a fun time capsule, while Shamrock/Venis was another perfectly acceptable match.
ReplyDeletePlus, who doesn't love Bluedust?
The second I download the Network, it's gonna be 24/7 Beach Blast 92 in the house. I destroyed that rental VHS watching it so many time when I was a wee lad.
ReplyDeleteWWE is going to lose a lot of money by not having him as El Generico. Generico hailed from Mexico so if they kept that then they could've had their new "Mexican" star to replace Sin Cara I and Rey Mysterio. Also, the mask sales! Ole!
ReplyDeleteThis guy gets it.
ReplyDeleteOoh, uncut touring Bashes.
ReplyDeleteI think the name is going to end up killing him in the end.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, Jacqueline is tied for my #1 all time favorite Diva, with Terri Runnels being the other one.
ReplyDeleteNeedless to day, PMS = Greatest faction ever.
Or even a suspiciously similar Generico substitute if he didn't want to sell them the name. They could even unmask him later if they wanted, but "white guy pretending to be Mexican under a lucha mask" is always a great gimmick.
ReplyDeleteWow.....never seen that....super happy I did.
ReplyDeleteThen Sami can blow his cover by lifting his mask after Smackdown goes off-air and then the Authority can just play the tape the following Raw.
ReplyDeleteThat whole deal really might have been the stupidest fucking thing ever.
It's from their 2 out of 3 falls match on NXT. One of my 2013 MOTY candidates, check it out.
ReplyDeleteWwe is nuts about owning copyright names again. They were always like this until the late 90s and early 2000s.
ReplyDeleteDECEMBER TO DISMEMBER
ReplyDeleteI think it's a perfectly acceptable pro-wrestling name. Short, easy to pronounce, yet still unique enough to stand out.
ReplyDeleteThat show was interesting, as it was nearly the exact same thing as the Rumble:
ReplyDeleteCM Punk = Daniel Bryan (Not part of the ending sequence, fans are pissed because of it)
Lashley = Batista (Obvious winner that nobody wants to accept)
Big Show = Roman Reigns (People cheering for him by default to spite the obvious winner)
Agreed. It's not a home run of a name but I can't see how it would hold him back.
ReplyDeleteSo you mean exactly what they did with Emma a few weeks ago?
ReplyDeleteI've seen all I need to see. How much of my money can I give him?
ReplyDeleteMake him the Crash to Sheamus' Hardcore Holly.
ReplyDeleteLicense to print money. Lots of it.
LOVE that analogy!
ReplyDeleteYeah, but you contradicted yourself, because Rock and Trips WERE good. So they were big-time characters that were over, but they were also good wrestlers, it wouldn't like they spent 25 minutes doing tests of strength and bearhugs
ReplyDeletewe may laugh about something like this but I really think there might be some truth to this.
ReplyDeleteSo unless you're the tippy-top guy, nothing matters? I guess I just prefer to not deal with such all-or-nothing absolutes, because pretty much everything in life is somewhere in between the two.
ReplyDeleteObviously there are other factors that matter: your look, your talking ability, your overall marketability. These things matter to every promoter who's ever televised wrestling. And they obviously should. But to say how good of a worker a guy is doesn't matter is patently, provably false. Yes, some guys get to the top despite being good workers. This has been the case throughout wrestling history.
But Bret Hart main evented Wrestlemanias primarily based on his working ability. (IE, that was his main selling point as a draw.) So did Shawn Michaels, albeit with more charisma mixed in. So did Chris Benoit.
You say the Rock and Triple H being in the main events instead of Benoit and Jericho is proof that "great wrestling doesn't matter," ignoring that they were as high on the card as they were, usually wrestling in one of the top three matches, primarily because of great wrestling ability. (It also ignores the fact that Tripe H and Rock's matches in 2000 on PPV both probably averaged 4 stars, because they were awesome then).
Even today, CM Punk and Daniel Bryan became bona fide main eventers primarily because of their in-ring work. Yes, it was a gimmick/character that got each over huge with the crowds, but the very fact that they had WWE jobs was based on their in-ring reputations. Same with...actually, I could spend the rest of the day on examples, so I'm not going to.
If your idea of wrestling is that nothing but workrate should dictate your place on the card, I really don't know what to tell you. There's been too many tremendous in-ring workers who've gone too far in WWF/E primarily- sometimes solely- because of their in-ring ability to make such a specious claim as "great wrestling doesn't matter." Of course it matters. There's just a lot of other things that matter, too.
You could make him the son of Conquistador #2.
ReplyDeletewho cares about the 24/7 "channel" anyway? just as long as I have access to cool stuff "on demand".
ReplyDeleteOh no I don't think it's a BAD show, but in terms of having every PPV ever at my disposal, I don't think it's run to SS98. I don't even think it was the PPV of that year.
ReplyDeleteCapital Carnage too, if you're doing that.
ReplyDeleteZayn was never going to be good enough to be anything but a midcarder anyways. One gimmick guys will eventually need a change anyways unless its a special circumstance like Rey Mysterio, and El Generico is just cult comedy stuff. Hes like Colt Cabana in a way.
ReplyDeleteHere's the analogy I'd use: being a WWE star is similar to being an NBA player. To be a true superstar/main eventer, you usually need to be a pretty well-rounded player/wrestler. Take The Rock and Stone Cold: very good to great as workers, phenomenal talkers, extremely marketable, each had a great look. Not everyone needs to be well-rounded to reach the top: dominant big men like Shaq/Dwight/Wilt in basketball whose skills were/are extremely deficient in certain areas (like shooting the ball more than five feet from the basket).
ReplyDeleteIn wrestling, we obviously know who the guys are who reached the tippy-top despite certain deficiencies, be it as a poor worker, poor talker or not having the "right" look to draw money.
Still, you can carve out a long career as a WWE guy by being a great technician even if you're too small and can't talk. Even though they've done nothing with him, the continued employment of Tyson Kidd is an example here. There are dozens of muscled-up lunkheads who get a chance because of their look and fail, while a guy like Kidd keeps his job because they know he can work.
Basketball is the same way: if you have an elite skill- shooting, rebounding, interior defense- you can have a long career even if the rest of your game is less than NBA-caliber.
So for this guy to make the claim that "great wrestling doesn't matter" just because it's not the only thing that matters...I just don't know what else to say to that.
2001, that three-PPV stretch at the start of the year is just ridiculously good. Summerslam was great too.
ReplyDeleteThat show and Backlash were far better than Wrestlemania XV in between.
ReplyDeleteI like IYH Canadian Stampede. But that might not be the first one I'd watch. Also, what was that show where John Morrison beat CM Punk to win the ECW title? It seems notable for some reason.
ReplyDeleteRebellion 2000 and 2001 are pretty good. Avoid Insurrection 2003 like the plague, though.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I don't know enough about him as El Generico- other than knowing who he is and that he had a rep as a great indie worker- to have an opinion on whether it helped or hurt him. Sometimes we overthink this stuff, because I think it's as simple as "this guy is a great worker, let's bring him in and see what we can do with him" sometimes. (Oh, wait, I was told elsewhere in this discussion that it doesn't matter at all if you're a good worker, so that must not be true.)
ReplyDeleteI don't know if "indy stink" is a real thing. Punk and Bryan are the two biggest main event stars they've elevated/created in the last five years, for one thing. The advancement of Rollins, Ambrose, Cesaro and others is more damage to that argument. There are people in the company- Heyman, Michael Hayes, even Cena to a degree- that have been vocal advocates of some of these guys, and we see the result in two full-fledged main eventers and more coming up.
To a degree, there should be some truth to it. As long as they aren't actively standing in the way of guys who came up through the indies, which they clearly aren't, being proprietary about their performers' gimmicks makes sense.
ReplyDeleteThank god.
ReplyDeleteI'm don't really get why anyone would find Jacqueline attracive, but each their own I guess.
She's not so much my type, but those breasts were kind of physiological marvels.
ReplyDeleteIt's on my short list, though I vaguely recall having watched the whole thing before.
ReplyDeleteBITE YOUR TONGUE OFF! OUTSIDE! RIGHT NOW!! PUT'EM UP!!
ReplyDeleteIt's really close. Rumble '01 through WMX7 is about as good of a three-PPV stretch as it gets. If you threw in the Raw where Benoit and Jericho won the tag titles, I might go with 2001. But since you were kind enough to leave out WM16....I think I'd take 2000.
ReplyDeleteBut if you asked me that tomorrow, I might have a different answer. Because while they ended up fucking the Invasion up, obviously, you stopped it short of when it really went off the rails for me. I was loving it up until Summerslam, but then again I turned 18 that summer and I don't know if 30-year old me would be as tolerant, knowing how much they fucked it up.
The fact that she was Jeff Jarrett's rat (and maybe Lawler's also) is an auto turn-off for me...
ReplyDeleteThe product as a whole was better in 2000? I'd agree with that.
ReplyDeleteI could see being soured on X7's ending to the point where its greatness is somewhat bittersweet, but that's as far as I'd go. Rock/Austin, E&C/Dudleys/Hardys, Taker/HHH and Benoit/Jericho are all 4+ stars and it was suitably epic to match the occasion, unlike, say, WM19, which was awesome in terms of match quality but was missing something.