Scott, I have a few random questions based off of shows I've watched on the network.
1. Did the NWA use The Great Muta to his fullest potential in 1989? After watching The Bash & Halloween Havoc it seems to me that Muta could have been a big time player. What happened?
2. How long was Jim Ross a booker in NWA/WCW? Does he get the credit he deserves or was his time as booker not very memorable?
3. Does the Dangerous Alliance get enough credit for being awesome? They were an awesome group, booked to look awesome, and the angle dominated the first 5 months of 1992. I would think it has to be one of the all time great "stables"?
4. What was up with Triple H at wrestlemania 26? For as much as we all complain about him hogging the spotlight - he sure didn't that year. He wrestled a mid-card match against Shameus that didn't take up much time on the ppv or if I recall correctly very much tv time leading into the event. How did we get so lucky???
1. Well, see, Muta is Japanese, and he could never get over with US audiences as a result according to Ole Anderson, so he was cut in early 1990 to save money. He literally could have been World champion with Gary Hart and especially Terry Funk talking for him. Fans loved him, he was an awesome elite level worker, and the top guys loved to work with him.
2. He wasn't really ever booker, he was part of a committee. I'd call it not very memorable because he was mostly caught between the bigger booking eras.
3. You are correct, it was awesome and it got all kinds of love at the time. Sadly it kind of fizzled out after Wargames, but that's why Wargames is such an effective blowoff. Plus the self-destruction with Paul E v. Madusa was tremendously entertaining.
4. He was off dealing with his younglings for most of that year, as I recall, and just wanted to make Sheamus a bigger star. By, you know, beating him at Wrestlemania. Because HHH.
Never realize #4 until just now, Sheamus is booked to look strong by losing to HHH?
ReplyDelete:facepalm:
That's how they made Booker T a star at Wrestlemania XIX.
ReplyDeleteHey he put him over at extreme rules to 1/4th the audience just like with Brock!
ReplyDeleteMuta ended up on the mt Rushmore of Japanese wrestling, so it turned out okay for him.
ReplyDeleteGoes to show even if you're a workout buddy of Triple H, still doesn't mean he'll lay down for you at WrestleMania.
ReplyDeleteHe's taken a loss from Benoit, Batista, Cena and Undertaker. You have to be a tippy-top guy to get one over on him at WrestleMania.
ReplyDeleteTriple H is a cancer to the wrestling business who only concerns himself with making sure nobody can be more over than he perceives himself to be.
ReplyDeletePlease be Bryan.
ReplyDeleteJust think what would have happened if he wasn't married to a McMahon.
ReplyDeleteNot the first, won't be the last.
ReplyDeleteHe's the first with major control of the company.
ReplyDeleteNot the first, nor the last.
ReplyDeleteHere's some potential luck: No sons for HHH/Steph, so unless the daughters do like the mother, this might only be a one-generation thing.
ReplyDeleteOh wait, one generation is a LIFETIME in the wrestling business.
What other wrestler has been in Triple H's current position in the company? He's the heir apparent to the owner.
ReplyDeleteBill Watts, Verne Gagne, and Dusty Rhodes say 'hi'.
ReplyDeleteThat specific spot? I'd argue Greg Gagne in the mid 80s as the closest, but not to that level.
ReplyDeleteBut "major control" + "no one better than me" =
Dusty in the 70s/80s (Graham was owner, but Dusty had a LOT of power as booker)
Verne in AWA (I'd argue he's at least as bad as Hunter, if not worse, especially in the 80s)
Hulk in WCW (creative control = might as well be the damn booker).
Watts was rarely active, so he gets a pass. He's about 50-70%, with the occassional jump to 90% (Midnights in Mid-South, Gilbert/Russians in UWF)
ReplyDeleteIn Ole's defense, how many Japanese wrestlers have gotten over huge in the States? Muta has been by far the biggest, followed by... Yoshihiro Tajrir? It's a short list. Dumbfuck Jim Herd couldn't have helped.
ReplyDeleteVerne actually owned the company. Watts, even bald and middle aged would beat top the heels. Dusty wasn't the owner, but when booking he always made himself look strong.
ReplyDeleteDid Verne involve himself in storylines and refused to ever look bad? Honest question, because I honestly don't remember much.
ReplyDeleteAlso being booker isn't the same as being the owner.
They were putting a rocket on his butt even before he married Stephanie. Given his ambition and drive he would probably have wound up being a player behind the scenes anyway.
ReplyDeleteIn Ole's defense, he's an idiot. As a wrestler, he was good. As a booker, HE SUCKS.
ReplyDeleteI'll argue that anyone with TALENT can get over, if they're allowed to show that talent. Target their weakness, and yeah, they're fucked.
Chris Benoit: DO NOT GIVE HIM A LIVE MIC FOR MORE THAN 15 SECONDS. Let him wrestle, and he (did) get over.
Same with Muta. Gary Hart was PERFECT for him, and Muta should have completely taken Funk's spot in J-Tex. Muta chasing Flair to the end of 89, with Flair winning at Starrcade and setting up Flair/Sting a different way would have gone over so much better.
Granted, but he wouldn't have near the power and influence he has now.
ReplyDeleteVerne retired as champ. And just gave the belt back to Bockwinkel.
ReplyDeleteBest part of that whole thing is that they ran with making Sheamus the King of the Ring to set up a feud with a returning Triple H. King Sheamus vs the King of Kings... and instead Triple H just came out and Pedigreed him one day. Feud over.
ReplyDeleteI always thought his WM 26 involvement was simply just him allowing Shawn the limelight in his final match. HHH was basically out in limbo leading up to the event as he was half of DX and clearly not pegged for a title match.
ReplyDeleteWould you consider that to be as selfish as someone who constantly buries others as a part-time heel authority figure?
ReplyDeleteThanks for answering Scott! I hope you are enjoying the network as much as I am! (Of course I will enjoy it more once all the kinks are worked out)
ReplyDeleteI thought he became a star fighting Edge over shampoo at Wrestlemania XVIII (...sorry X8). Shows you how much I know.
ReplyDeleteOle booked for Crockett and Barnett and made them both money. From all accounts Ole is an honest guy, and hearing Ole's side of WCW in the days he booked it a lot of the problems make sense. Herd et al just wanted to cut payroll and didn't know how to run a wrestling company. They gave Sting $900K and said it was because he was the champion. Ole absolutely made some garbage booking decisions, but I can't put them all on him.
ReplyDelete"He was off dealing with his younglings for most of that year, as I
ReplyDeleterecall, and just wanted to make Sheamus a bigger star. By, you know,
beating him at Wrestlemania. Because HHH."
Triple H has a few other instances of getting a victory at WrestleMania only to "put over" the guy in front of a much smaller audience at that next PPV:
WrestleMania 2000: Wins the 4-way by pinning The Rock, loses the title to The Rock at Backlash
WrestleMania 24: Though he lost the 3-way when Orton pinned Cena (after HHH gave Cena a Pedigree, naturally), Triple H would go ahead and win the title at Backlash in a 4-way with Orton, Cena, and JBL (slightly different, but Orton still ended up jobbing).
WrestleMania 25: Beats Orton to retain, loses it to Orton in a six-man match at Backlash.
WrestleMania 26: Beats Sheamus, loses to Sheamus at Backlash
WrestleMania 29: Beats Lesnar, loses to Lesnar at Extreme Rules
WrestleMania 30: Beats Bryan. Beats Bryan again at Extreme Rules. (opps, getting ahead of myself).
So who ended up with the "WrestleMania moment" in front of the largest audience of the year?
But I guess that's better than Jericho and Booker T got since they never got a chance to get their wins back.
as kbjone said, Verne won the title and retired with it. Long after he had been out of the title picture. Plus he looked like a grandpa. Lets not forget Baba (Or is it Inoki? too lazy to go look). One of them kept themselves it the main event scene way after their prime as well.
ReplyDeleteBaba might have wrestled with main eventers, but:
ReplyDelete1: He was NOT in the title picture IIRC, he usually wrestled "All-star" tag matches at that point.
2: Japanese wrestling is more "tolerant" of the legends being in the ring with the superstars.
Yeah, that was a little harsh. WCW Ole sucked. GCW Ole was acceptable.
ReplyDeleteI fucking loved Muta and I was petty much a WWF purist. Dude was AWESOME.
ReplyDeleteI remember seeing him on some wccw stuff via ESPN too. No facepaint IIRC.
ReplyDeleteThe first one there explains why he thinks he can keep doing it.
ReplyDeleteWM 2000 did 825,000 buys. Backlash 2000 did 675,000. Invasion is the only non-WM pay-per-view to beat Backlash.
Also, I was there at Backlash 2000, best show of my life, and that was actually what WrestleMania should have been (Austin returning, Hebner storyline, etc.)
Even the day of the PPV, when the world knew Benoit was winning, I had doubts Trips would be the one taking the loss. Then Shawn did it the next month in Canada (to the Sharpshooter?). I thought hell froze over.
ReplyDeleteI've said it before, but WWF in 2000 was so uniquely awesome that it really didn't matter that it was Wrestlemania. And really, WM kind of got sandwiched into this weird spot in terms of storyline development, but there were four FUCKING AWESOME pay=per-views bookending it, so anyone still complaining about that is just being silly IMO.
ReplyDelete...I don't know...Jericho did kill that dog..so maybe it was HHH who got the win back. AlsoBooker T got the honor of selling the pedigree longer than anyone else on such a big stage
ReplyDeleteSo other than WM 24, 27 and 28, HHH has not lost since WM 22 (while we will ignore that he also lost at WM 21 and 20 clean as a sheet).
ReplyDeleteThat is quite the extreme case of revisionist history.
But beating Brock at WM29 when it was obviously the right booking decision still counts, naturally.
ReplyDeleteGreat point. Was Austin advertised for Backlash 2000? If so, that might also explain the buyrate since he had been gone for months.
ReplyDeleteOf course, as you pointed out it still did awesome regardless.
Yeah, he was. The go home Smackdown was the show where he destroyed the DX bus.
ReplyDeleteI really don't think you can count 24 as a total loss when Cena was pinned by Orton after the Pedigree. That's about as strong as you can look taking a loss.
ReplyDeleteThe two Undertaker losses are in the same league. He wasn't going to beat Taker at Mania because that just isn't done. But Triple H wasn't made to look like a chump in either loss. Remember the whole "You didn't walk out under your own power?" stuff after 27 and the manly-man embracing after 28.
I'll compromise by saying this: Triple H hasn't been made to look weak at any WrestleMania since 22.
Wrestlemania 22 should've been Edge vs. Cena. It was ridiculous that Edge lost the belt after proving to be such a hot heel act just so HHH could get his Mania pay day.
ReplyDeleteI will disagree with that until the day I die. Cena was barely established as a main eventer, while Edge was not established at all. (Just 1 title win, based on a MITB cash in).
ReplyDeleteBoth guys beat a super established guy at WM 22 (HHH and Mick Foley) to officially cement them as top guys, so THEN they were legit top guys later in 2006 when they feuded over the title.
This.
ReplyDeleteHHH was a no-brainer opponent for Cena that year.
Don't forget Ole!
ReplyDeleteBacklash almost equalled WM in buys? Wow. Shows you how much the tide has turned.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that was one of the best years ever running into WM X-7. Just, amazing, all around.
ReplyDeleteVince will never die. He's a methuselah.
ReplyDeleteOh shit my work network allows The Network. Starrcade '85 it is!
ReplyDeleteBest background noise at work ever!
ReplyDeleteHad the Great Muta ever been pushed to the NWA Title in 1989 and 1990, think of the incredible programs that could've been had. Hell, one Great Muta / Ricky Steamboat title match would've probably self-destructed half the viewing audience at the time from the sheer awesomeness of it all.
ReplyDeleteLord, they've tried to resurrect so many different groups over the years; I think one of the few that could get over now on its own merits would be the Dangerous Alliance. You wouldn't have to call it that, but give Paul Heyman the microphone the night after WrestleMania and just go off on the system that has taken everything from him (his promotion, his shot at revenge, his prized clients). Have him basically declare war on the company and start bringing in like-minded, underutilized talents that are pissed at the system/Authority and want to get theirs.
ReplyDeleteDolph Ziggler and Cesaro would be incredible bookends for it, too, and then you could get creative and toss in a new young tag team (I don't necessarily like the Ascension for the role, but I think a Justin Gabriel / Tyson Kidd tag team would own the world). So give Paul Ziggler and Cesaro, Gabriel and Kidd, and maybe another big bruiser from NXT like Mason Ryan; most all can work and get over on their own talents, unlike the bland Curtis Axel. It would automatically give them some serious credibility and create FRESH new matches to carry through the summer and fall.
I agree with scott that starcade should have been muta/sting blowoff with Sting finally beating Muta and Luger/Flair with the heel/face dynamic switched. Muta was so over that one loss to Sting wasn't gonna hurt him and then we could have gotten a great little JTex/Horsemen feud until they decided to turn The horsemen against sting.
ReplyDeleteInstead they make Muta look like a jobber at Starcade with the stupid tournament and then job him and the TV title to Arn with almost no fan fare on the Sunday night show IIRC.
Yet if you watch the Clash where they turn on Sting, Muta is still over like crazy in that cage match.
And the DA were amazing and they had great faces to work with. Watch all that late 91/early 92 WCw
Guaranteed HHH is thinking "I beat Bryan, then he beats Batista just like Bret did".
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'd have even taken that for the US or TV title. That is my #1 "what could have been" from 89-90 NWA.
ReplyDeleteBut what HHH be doing in your scenario? You know that he has to insinuate himself in every hot angle. It's a given.
ReplyDeleteI disagree. The virtual no-brainer to me would've been to stay with the scorching hot hand. Edge was on fire and an extra 6 weeks of him as champion could've made and defined both men. Edge was one of the few people that got people to cheer for Cena wholeheartedly (after the previous six months of people not-so-secretly hoping for Angle and HBK to win the belt).
ReplyDeleteWhat did we get instead?
Cena dealing with boos for the first time at a Mania in a match everyone knew he was going to win. As for Edge, they tried to recapture some of the same magic in July with him, but the momentum had been lost. Now, these guys were still "made" and "defined" over time, but in Edge's case, it could've been so much more (much like Punk could've been so much more in 2011 w/o the whole ADR, Nash, and HHH clusterfrick).
2000 - X7 was the culmination of all Russo's awesome characters, an influx of great workers, and some guys (Rock, Triple H) really coming into their own. Chris Kreski was really able to get some control over Russos chaotic booking style and the result was the best 15 month period ever.
ReplyDeleteI guess it did give us Triple H and his awesome Barbarian outfit.
ReplyDeleteIt's more a case of ethnocentric bias turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy than anything else. American bookers think foreign workers won't get over, book them as such, foreign workers don't get over.
ReplyDeleteHe'll switch back to being a face so that he triumphs.
ReplyDeleteEven if Heyman doesn't want to work full-time anymore, a new group would be pretty awesome. Wade Barrett could lead it - Bad News International or something. Okay that would be a redo of Hot Stuff International, but hey. Barrett could be on his podium during his compatriots' matches providing background noise and extra heat.
ReplyDeletePretty sure we're going to see a big push for the women's division in about fifteen years.
ReplyDeleteFritz. Von. Erich. He constantly booked himself over his hottest talent to such an extent that he won his fucking retirement match over one of the company's top heels at the time, King Kong Bundy.
ReplyDeletehere's your name:
ReplyDeleteHeyman and the Masters of the Universe.
The best part about HHH is that when he embraces a face role, he has to come out victorious because it only makes sense for the good guy to win in the end. When he's a heel, he still comes out victorious because he makes you wait for the payback that never comes. Unless you're perceived to be on his level.
ReplyDeleteOff the top of my head, I've seen three wrestlers come in and immediately get over with the crowd with just their wrestling style - Muta, Rey Mysterio Jr., and WWE-era Rob Van Dam.
ReplyDeleteMuta is self-explanatory. By the end of his match with Dean Malenko at the Great American Bash '96, Rey had the crowd solidly behind him. And RVD instantly got over in WWE because he was flashy and was something different from the tired WWE Main Event Style that everyone was using.
We're going on twenty years at least since Hot Stuff International was even a thing; the statute of limitations have long-since run out. Bad News International is just about awesome.
ReplyDeleteThis perfectly sums my feelings on the issue. Edge actually got ratings improving as champ. Subsequently off subject but this is the point in Cena's career in which a heel turn would have been perfect.
ReplyDeleteEdge was not a Wrestlemania main event act at that time.
ReplyDeleteOh my god!
ReplyDeleteWhy has no one ever brought this up before???
Did you actually watch the ladder match with Flair?
ReplyDeleteThis.
ReplyDeleteThe dude was going to production meetings as far back as 1996.
Tajiri and Hakushi (when they were in WWF) could have gotten over too based on their styles, but the company quickly buried them.
ReplyDeleteCan't say I did.
ReplyDeleteTajiri had a ton of charisma even without speaking English, he could have been a bigger deal in the WWE for sure.
ReplyDeleteTajiri did get over based on his style. They just didn't know what to do with him because he was Japanese and a cruiserweight.
ReplyDeleteWho plays Missy, AJ? She's the only one competent enough to cut a promo as well as Missy.
ReplyDeleteTajiri was over briefly when he first debuted, but then he got Zack Ryder'd and lost a lot of his heat.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that was Flair's last good match until the one he had with HBK. It was one of the best Raw matches of the year. But the fact was that Edge was on during the last segment of Raw for about 3 weeks straight and an extra half million or more viewers started tuning back in out of nowhere (and that's just focusing on the entire show's average, not the even more significant bump for his segments). People were ready for him to be THE main event, not just in it. Those half million or so people were promptly lost again after he was dropped from the title picture.
ReplyDeleteI'd say he was more Marc Mero'd. They put him with a hot blonde (Torrie Wilson) and his entrance always garnered a HUGE pop, but 99.9% of it was just for Torrie. Tajiri was a total non-factor.
ReplyDeleteI think RVD was getting over when he was briefly in the WWF back in 1997 and I know RVD was a ECW loyalist, but at the same time I always found it odd that WWF or WCW didn't offer him a big deal to jump ship because he was always a star just ready to be made.
ReplyDeleteHe was also pretty over tagging with Eddie and whenever he was paired with Regal. I'd only say he was slightly underutilized, though. They gave him a lot of stuff to do and things to be a part of.
ReplyDeleteTrying to extrapolate deep meaning from any brief ratings blip is a road to nowhere.
ReplyDeleteShit, ten posts and someone beats me to it right before the end.
ReplyDeleteHHH is bad, but he's not as aggressively stupid as Ole was.
What does El Torito have to do with any of this?
ReplyDelete"WrestleMania 2000: Wins the 4-way by pinning The Rock, loses the title to The Rock at Backlash"
ReplyDeleteThere's a perfectly good reason for that one: they wanted Austin to be part of putting Rock over in case Austin was done for good, and Austin wasn't going to be healthy enough to do so for Mania. A couple weeks later, he was ready enough (although you could tell that he was either painkillered up or drunk as hell in order to get through Backlash).
Yup. Backlash's insane buyrate was almost 100% due to it being Austin's first PPV since the injury.
ReplyDeleteIt was a very unique circumstance. They did a WM-like buyrate by holding both Austin and Rock winning the title off WM.
ReplyDeleteCena going heel didn't make any sense until they had someone to replace him - which they only kinda-sorta had circa 2011.
ReplyDeleteWho's the #1 face if Cena turns heel in 2006? RVD? *snickers* Yeah, that would've ended REAL well....
Yep, I love how the Turn Cena Heel campaign started in friggin late 2005. Pretty sure WWE made the right call up to this point!
ReplyDeleteThe tournament was the classic idea of coming up with a good idea ("hey, we have four top stars and no obvious direction!"), and then not having a fucking clue how they were going to book it.
ReplyDeleteYou have the feeling they got to the building that day and tried to hack out how to get to the end result, which was why it played out in such a stupid manner.
Summer Rae. Not perfect, but she can definitely be a shrill harpy.
ReplyDeleteYeah, he wound up having a pretty good run for someone his size in that company.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget, he was also involved in that great 2004 feud on Benoit's side vs. Evolution. There just wasn't anyone ideal for him to pair off with on the other side, which is why he kind of got shifted away from the program.
Exactly. They were able to almost equal the WM buyrate by promoting their actual characters, vs. now where the WM and WWE names are the only things that can push buys.
ReplyDeleteActually, they nearly equaled the WM buyrate by slightly tarnishing the WM card, and saving the "real" WM card for the next show. That WM was pretty weak with the only singles match being a Diva match.
ReplyDeleteSo I'm watching Halloween Havoc 1992 (I know, torture. But I had never saw it) and wow, does WCW have a stacked roster of talent. How they manged to not book most of it in anything good is amazing. Announcers: JR and Jesse. Paul E, Rude, Sting, Austin, Williams, Windham, Foley, Steamboat, Pillman, Arn Anderson, etc etc. Jesus.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't EVEN the Sunday night show, it was the short-lived FRIDAY night show TBS was trying a the time.
ReplyDeleteThis deserves ALL the upvotes today.
ReplyDeleteAt least Dusty was still crazy over...and never put himself over the biggest star (Flair) on the biggest show of the year, although Starrcade '85 was the quintessential Dusty Finish. But really, who else could've headlined that even with Flair? Dusty was the most over face they had at that time.
ReplyDeleteWhat, no love for #1 contender AAARRHHH THE BARBARIAN???
ReplyDeleteyeah, left him out. That's my point. All of those guys and the Barbarian is the number 1 contender? I didn't even put in young Dustin Rhodes. Did laugh at the bit with him "training" to take Simmons' powerslam by...getting regular body slammed.
ReplyDeleteOle didn't push himself during his "stupid years", however.
ReplyDeleteHe'll bring Batista, Orton, Cena, and himself together, and they'll win every match against the New (not-so) Dangerous Alliance.
ReplyDeleteRight!! I knew it wasn't the Saturday show.
ReplyDeleteThere was one thing they did for a little while with the 3 weekend shows and that was the "running the gauntlet" series where some one would have a match on each show and if they won all three thy would win 15grand but if they lost, the three other guys would split it. I remember Pillman and Scott Steiner both tries, but I think Pillman is the first one to win all of them.
There's another missed opportunity - Muta v Pillman during late 89....
Speaking of Havoc 92.......what happened to Jake Roberts wcw run? He came in with a main event feud with Sting - had a disastrous match at Havoc and then was gone. Anyone have any insight?
ReplyDeleteYeah, he left both companies in 1992 way too soon. He had a TON left to give. Must have been drug and/or money related I guess.
ReplyDeleteHBK
ReplyDeleteI think the I Quit match with Foley, where he won by threatening Melina, was a pretty fucking good match, but I don't remember if that was before or after the ladder match.
ReplyDeleteBarbarian was awesome. (emoticon of a guy folding his arms all "hurumph")
ReplyDeleteEveryone pretty much agrees it was drug-related...
ReplyDeleteI LOVE the Faces of Fear. If not for the NWO, they could have been solid heel tag champs.
ReplyDeleteMy opinion is different than you in this regard. I respect the people that think he should be an eternal babyface. The Make - A - Wish stuff is huge for PR, I get it. Note he wasn't doing all this in 2005. Anyway, as an old school guy I think when someone starts getting booed (or booed out of the building) it's time to turn them. This logic created the Rock. Imagine if WWE kept babyface Rocky Maivia and kept shoving him down our throats instead of giving us The Rock. The Cena heel turn is one of the last big angles WWE hasn't done and I know if done even remotely correctly it will make for some damn good TV.
ReplyDeleteI loved the Gauntlet idea, it made each of the three shows must-see in a way.
ReplyDeleteDid they name that show Power Hour? I remember being disappointed when it got cancelled.
Power Hour was the Sunday afternoon show IIRC.
ReplyDeleteConsidering the talent, it's amazing they fucked it up. Not surprising, but still amazing.
ReplyDeleteSunday was the Main Event.
ReplyDeleteI remembered that about 10 seconds after I typed...
ReplyDeleteFound this on Wiki about the Gauntlet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WCW/NWA_Gauntlet_Series
Steiners were the only winners...
I don't know if that's true. If anything, he risked his job to be with Steph. He was well on his way to power and influence and Vince initially didn't want him dating Steph for that reason.
ReplyDeleteI just want it noted: I can instantly recall the name of NWA/WCW's Sunday show, that I haven't watched in 20 years, but God help me if I try to remember anything I learned in school that year.
ReplyDeleteBill Watts got put in charge just as Jake was coming over and they hate each other.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of that match, man, Edge never had a more awesome theme music than that Rob Zombie theme.
ReplyDeleteSo Sid joins the group?
ReplyDeleteThey have people calling him the Michael Jordan of the WWE for fuck's sake. I'm telling you, down the road he's going to whitewash WWE history to the point where Shawn was the star of the Attitude Era, but his back injury forced Triple H to step up to be the star. But he had great supporting acts in Austin and Rock. And Mick Foley was the Attitude Era version of Santino who didn't do shit.
ReplyDeleteThey put four guys and four tag teams and used them for the WHOLE SHOW, knocking a whole mess of talent off the show. That Starrcade is ridiculous. Can't wait to watch it on the Network!
ReplyDeleteThe main problem is, they had too many matches and not enough time. I would have just scrapped the entire tag team part of it (just a regular tag title match), and given tons more time to a few of the singles matches. (Mostly Flair/Muta)
ReplyDelete*Masters of the WWE Universe.
ReplyDeleteThe main difference is that women and kids still cheer Cena to this day. 1997 Rocky Maivia, 1995 Hulk Hogan and 2014 Batista are/were getting cheered by literally nobody. Huge difference.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I know Barbarian was largely considered a joke but he was a pretty good worker for a big guy and could have been a used more effectively as a midcarder.
ReplyDeleteProbably because people were too busy crying about Daniel Bryan.
ReplyDeleteAnd now, since "there are no faces or heels," HHH just flips from heel to face every week and he'll never have to get his comeuppance. He's brilliant!
ReplyDeleteThe booking still fucks Muta over hard, unless you're changing that too?
ReplyDeleteWasn't he on his way out of the company anyway? I always figured that's why he got "Buried".
ReplyDeleteRewatching the first episode of Monday Night Raw. Good GOD, how annoying was Rob Bartlet? He makes the show practically unwatchable. Also the Tyson gag is hilarious in light of the impact he would later make in 1998 on Raw.
ReplyDeleteHe was terrible. The Mike Tyson stuff was especially bad. What struck me about that Raw is that how different wrestling was less than 5 years later. Bret got screwed, Shawn Michaels (nice match with Max moon btw) was DX, attitude era was starting. Compare to 4 years ago...John Cena vs Randy Orton!
ReplyDeleteMaybe...the Dungeon of Doom was such a collection of losers though. They did do a better job of washing that stink off of them than most of those guys though.
ReplyDeleteI laughed at Sweet Chin Music being a simple transitional setup for the teardrop suplex...and the funny thing is, the crowd pops a little for the kick, but is more or less silent for the suplex. Anyone know when Shawn made the transition?
ReplyDeleteAnd agreed on how much the business changed. Also, compare this to the Hogan era 5 years before. Also a pretty big change. But like you said, 2010 is virtually no different then 2014. The set looks the same, the whole presentation is the same, and a lot of the same wrestlers are shuffling around the midcard. No wonder so many fans are feeling burned out and checked out.
It doesn't matter what your position in the company is. It's whether you're given the opportunity to draw big money.
ReplyDeleteWhen he knocked Diesel out cold 3 times from Summerslam 1994 to Survivor Series 1994.
ReplyDeleteRemember when they had to sabotage Luger's heel turn by having him play lame duck for Flair while Sting was injured? How awesome would it have been if they'd turned Muta face and used him instead? He could have chased the title in the name of the fallen rival who'd won his respect.
ReplyDeleteThey had a really awesome run for the first part of 92 to boot.
ReplyDeleteSuperbrawl II, WrestleWar, and Beach Blast are all awesome PPVs from that year.
Did Watts just stop caring before he got canned in early 93?
Worst triple main event in ppv history? I think so.
ReplyDeleteRude/Chono, Simmons/Barbarian and Sting/Jake. All shitstain matches
I loved Muta. The first I saw of him was from the best of Halloween Havoc that I owned. His mannerisms were just fascinating and then when I started to become more aware of the in ring work, I liked him even more.
ReplyDeleteTotal wasted opportunity on Steiners vs. Road Warriors
ReplyDeleteDisqualified because (a) he wasn't working a full schedule (although it looks like he did work a fair number of house house shows) and (b) even if he was, he never would do all the marketing / media / charity stuff that Cena (and, to a lesser extent, Big Dave and later Punk) were expected to do as the top guy.
ReplyDeleteShit, they tried to get him to move to Smackdown several times and he wouldn't do it because it conflicted with his prayer group. You think he'd be up for 8:30 radio appearances five times a week?
Funny thing, all 3 had good potential on paper. Even a Simmons/Barbarian power match could have been decent. But...
ReplyDeleteAdd that to the well-worked but too-long-by-half tag title match and you have a disaster of a show.
ReplyDeleteI still don't understand why they didn't try to solidify Simmons' reign by having him go over Vader in a rematch. The angle was simple (Race claims Vader wasn't ready for Simmons - Heel 101ing), but they never went there, even while Vader wasn't doing anything of note for much of the fall anyway.
*shrug* Bill Watts is Bill Watts, I guess.
I don't know if they would've kept the TV title on him if they knew he wasn't staying around, but I guess Arn basically won it the next week so they might've known.
ReplyDeleteIf memory serves (from Meltzer's 1990 history from 2004 or so, so if I'm off on this it's been a decade...), they screwed Muta over in a lot of other ways as well - he was supposed to get an endorsement deal for Roos shoes and WCW blocked it.
Hm... Inoki, Baba, and Rikidozan are locks... I'd have Misawa or Kobashi over Muta for the #4 slot, myself, but Muta did have the "defender of pro wrestling" role during the UWFI feud....
ReplyDeleteVader had knee problems in 1992 and was out of action for a bit due to surgery.
ReplyDeleteWCW was so awesome back in the day. I used to wake up to the Saturday morning show, watch the Saturday Night Show 12 hours later and watch another hour on Sunday nights. Obviously I was the coolest 8-year-old on the block.
ReplyDeleteVader had knee surgery after he lost to Simmons and was out for a while.
ReplyDeleteIf they ran the exact same storylines as that stretch today, it wouldn't matter.
ReplyDeleteBacklash was sold almost entirely around the biggest draw in wrestling history coming back from a seemingly career-ending injury. Shit, look at the numbers for an otherwise underwhelming Judgment Day card later in the year - they drew an almost-identical number for a show that basically involved Austin showing up and stunnering Shane McMahon.
Sadly, I would be ok with that.
ReplyDeleteNever knew that - although he was healthy enough to work Havoc. If he could go for 12 minutes with Nikita, he could've put over Simmons.
ReplyDeleteWatts wasn't in charge for Superbrawl - and I don't think he'd taken over for WrestleWar, either.
ReplyDeleteYou can plot the downward trajectory pretty quickly from Beach Blast's greatness to the Bash (saved by Sting and Vader) to the crap later in the year.
I had no idea about the "in case Austin was done for good part". I thought it was just that they wanted to use him to get a bigger butyrate, but he wasn't ready for Mania.
ReplyDeleteThere were very real concerns that he'd ever be able to come back from the injury at anywhere near 100%.
ReplyDeleteConsidering he basically lasted all of two years after that (late 2000 - mid 2002, with the brief 2003 comeback), those concerns were probably justified.
So you need him to put Rock over to cement Rock as the next guy on top. Of course, even that plan goes to hell because Rock shoots Mummy Returns halfway through the year and starts on the path that'd lead to his departure.
You guys are missing the point. Yes, Austin played a role but it was about Rocky FINALLY getting the big babyface WWF title win.
ReplyDeleteIt shows how you can effectively do a "slow burn" - they delayed Rocky's win by one (and only one) month and got a ridiculous buyrate out of it. Then they did the standard rematch at Judgment Day (instead of Backlash) and got three mega-buyrates out of a hot feud.
Contrast that with today where people are STILL waiting for the big Bryan babyface win/moment after getting a fake one in August, which is now six months & counting ago.
What Russo characters were involved??
ReplyDelete2000 was driven by Rocky, Triple H, Benoit, Jericho and Angle and the tag teams...which of those are Russo characters? The Hardyz & Edge/Christian became successful when they moved away from the characters Russo gave them in late 1999.
The best thing that ever happened to the WWF was WCW hiring Vince Russo. I mean, like in the history of the company. They went on to have their most successful year ever in 2000, just printing money - Unforgiven 2000 did 600k buys - and Russo drove WCW into the ground.
Except Judgment Day didn't do a huge buyrate (in the context of the time) - KOTR beat it the next month, and Fully Loaded came close. 1.1ish was the floor for a WWE PPV around that period.
ReplyDeletePlus, Rock's chase of the title was a bit overrated, since they'd already given away the Rock / Big Show / HHH match two weeks earlier on Raw. He'd already had plenty of chances, and if memory serves they weren't hyping Backlash as his last shot at the title or anything like that (although Austin's presence more or less guaranteed that it would finally be the title change).
If you look at the big unusual buyrate spikes that year - Backlash and Unforgiven - the thing connecting them is Austin "returning." Sort of like how people bought Invasion more for the potential of a return of babyface Austin than the Invasion itself.
There's a story somewhere that the Cliq were riding in the car talking about finishers and Scott Hall says to Shawn, "Just use the kick!! People pop for the kick!! That's your finisher!"
ReplyDeleteWooosh...
ReplyDeleteThat is one f'n tough call, but I think I like the Alterbridge theme by, like, a hair.
ReplyDeleteActually the interesting thing was that Vince gave his blessing to HHH and Steph dating, saying that "if it was anyone other than you, I wouldn't give the blessing". Didn't tell that to Linda, who was pissed he didn't bother to mention it. Then *withdrew* the blessing when he thought it was a bad idea, and after Linda had already come around to be supportive. =)
ReplyDeleteIt's clear from the first conversation HHH and Vince had that HHH would have had some significant power and influence behind the scenes, because he is the kind of guy Vince likes. Hayes indirectly compares him to Cena at one point in the doc (and although that's a ridiculous comparison, it shows where Vince's head is at).
Bill Watts happened
ReplyDeleteReally, I never heard it was Hall's idea that Shawn get rid of that stupid suplex. Cool.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Wikipedia: he first injured the knee in March of 1992 in Japan, but then re-injured it in WCW. He then dropped the title to Simmons in August, had surgery in September, and returned at Halloween Havoc - so he wasn't out of action very long. But given that Simmons dropped the title back to Vader a month or so later, they may have already been planning on getting the title off SImmons.
ReplyDeleteSomething along the lines of Hall saying to Shawn one day, "Just use the kick, it's your best fucking move."
ReplyDeleteDude was so fucking fluid and graceful. Remember the PPV was where they had the 4 man round robin tournament? I was so fucking ticked when he lost every match. But, I still recall Muta somehow nailing Luger with a roundhouse kick starting from one knee. I rented the video and got drunk with a bunch of friends while watching. The next day, they told me I spent at least 10 minutes watching that one move while muttering "that fucking kick."
ReplyDeleteThat's kinda like when Daltry told Townsend, "Pete, just smash your guitar. They'll love it!"
ReplyDeleteOr, you know...not.
I will never not be convinced that Foley was not actually the face in his feud with Flair and vice versa (Flair as the actual heel)
ReplyDeleteI was at that show, and regardless of what anyone says that night fucking RULED
ReplyDeleteIt was the only blip of its kind in roughly 13 years. You had to be there, I guess. There was a palpable buzz to his emergence. There was a similar collective sigh after HHH forced his way into the main event....HHH was not a no-brainer
ReplyDeleteHahahaha that is awesome. Now that the network is here you can do that all again!
ReplyDeleteBischoff was going to give RVD the proverbial keys to the car when he "bought" WCW in 2001, but we know what happened there.
ReplyDeleteMuta was money. Got my 1st look in NWA unfortunately. But I immediately found whatever else I could in Japan. I don't know how this guy never BLEW UP in the states, especially NWA '89. Another guy that some how has eluded Vince his entire career.
ReplyDeleteYes! He wrestled in WCCW before WCW as the Super Black Ninja. I remember how wild it was to see this guy pulling this crazy shit in the late '80s.
ReplyDeleteWhat I would like to do is watch all PPVs in order, along with corresponding Mon night programs. But, the Mon nights aren't there, and I don't know that I have the patience to go through each PPV one at a time. I did put together a list, and I own most of the WMs on DVD...so, maybe. I've already gone out of order, having watched Tues in TX and the first Sur Ser. Was working on The Wrestling Classic earlier, but I got about halfway through and decided NCAA14 needed some of my attention.
ReplyDeleteNow I'm going to do a blog entry on my site, and I have the 2013 on the live channel cause it's 2013 Rumble, and I love rumbles. Seems a bit silly to stream it when I have it on DVD though.
and, I can't decide if I want to do all PPVs, or just WWF/E PPVs.
ReplyDeleteI could not remember what his name was there to save my life.
ReplyDeleteWatching WWE Network live stream...2013 Rumble...they were still pushing Ryback pretty hard.
Yeah, turning Ryback heel was a pretty bad move in hindsight. He was actually getting really over as a face. He just screams mid-card, change the channel to me now.
ReplyDeleteI was there. It was cool. I'd say if anything, it was the "holy shit" factor of the first briefcase cash-in and Cena losing the title so unexpectedly via that way. Plus, they hyped up a "live sex celebration" and then, y'know...actually did it.
ReplyDeleteEdge's ascension was exciting, but I never remember thinking at the time that it meant Edge/Cena should have been the WM main event.
This will unequivocally not happen.
ReplyDeleteSome of you are just way too far off the reservation with the Triple H stuff. Come back. I promise it's safe back here in Sane Person Land.
I wonder how much of his de-push has to do with backstage stuff, or if he became a prick because of the slide down the card.
ReplyDelete