I'm sure TNA and ROH (domestically) have had numerous matches that are just as good as, if not better than, the best WWE matches. It's hard, however, to consider them "classics" when relatively few people see them and they have relatively little impact on the overall history of pro wrestling.
Great Eddie/Benoit match, good Taker/Cena match, Very good Tag Title match, very good triple threat main event. I also thought the Bar Room Brawl was in good fun
To this day, I have no idea why Rey and Kidman weren't a more permanent tag team. Rematch this at SummerSlam (where they don't have to contend with the elements -- this match was in high-altitude Denver!), and it gets the full monty IMO.
God, I love this match. Even on a show that was as stacked as Vengeance 2003, I'm not ashamed to call this my favorite match of the whole card. It just kicked 900 kinds of ass and came back for more!
Falling one short of the 313 matches involving Kane and Undertaker that year. Off the top of my head (televised matches only):
1. WM XIV 2. The PPV with the inferno match 3. Match for the title shot at King of the Ring (I remember this only because Kane actually pinned Undertaker here) 4. Fully Loaded 5. 4-way tag match, I think when the Outlaws got the belts back 6. September PPV 7. October PPV 8. Undertaker/Kane vs. Rock/Shamrock/Mankind 9. Survivor Series
So six of the twelve PPVs that year had Undertaker vs. Kane in some fashion, including four singles matches between the two. Wait -- I'm forgetting our friends over the pond. Apparently the main event of Mayhem in Manchester was Undertaker vs. Kane, and the main event of Capital Carnage was Austin vs. Undertaker vs. Kane vs. Rock. So that's 8/14 PPVs and five one-one-one encounters that year. This doesn't include house shows, dark matches, matches I forgot/didn't know about, that time Undertaker dressed up as Kane, or matches in which in one guys was involved and the other merely did a run-in (Royal Rumble, KoTR, Rock Bottom).
Good match. I just happened to watch this entire ppv yesterday on dvd. One of the better ppvs from 2003. It would have been better without Steph vs Sable.
He tried, I'll give him that, but you & I both know it just wasn't enough. And they tried, too - I mean, he went over HHH in his first Raw match, and that was when HHH was almost untouchable.
That was when Triple H got to stay on Raw in exchange for three guys after the draft and needed to show he was a team player by putting someone over. Not saying it wasn't a cool bit, as I was live there in Cincinnati when it happened, but let's not act as if Shelton got the rocket behind him.
Every ppv main from Unforgiven to Judgement Day had some combination of Austin, Undertaker, Foley or Kane. Rock's elevation could not come soon enough.
THIS. I keep hearing how WWE fails to make new stars now, but they weren't *THAT* good at it back then either. those 4 guys, then Rock and HHH in the next few years. Most of the other guys, just like these days, were over, but VERY SELDOM were put over those "big 6". Even in 2000, Benoit/Jericho/Angle were mostly on the losing side against those guys.
Yep, I get the storyline logic behind it, but... shouldn't absolutely every triple threat match in history have at least 5 obvious count out situations? There's almost always 1 guy out of the ring for 5 minutes at a time.
This was the Raw where I realized for sure that Severn just didn't have it. Big pop for him when he stood up for Jason Sensation... HUGE pop when he countered out of the Sharp Shooter.... Then he ... pushes Owen into the corner and starts doing open palm strikes.... Worst. (pro wrestling) Offense. Ever.
What irritates me is that most triple threat matches (also fatal four-ways) have been implied to be no DQ, no countout, but the WWF/E has also used the announcement of those matches as no DQ/no countount as means for a big pop. See Rebellion 2000's main event for a great example.
Hogan decided he didn't want to play ball anymore... so Vince came out and used so off air footage of Mr. America pulling his mask up to reveal himself as Hulk Hogan... thus banning him from WWE.
Yeah...I think JR is generally a good guy with a great mind for the business who was critical to WWF's success during this period, however he totally let his blind love of Dr. Death really cloud his judgment when it came to Bart Gunn. Totally unfair...
The whole story about Ross "never forgiving Bart Gunn" for knocking out Dr. Death has always struck me as total bullshit, right up there with Roddy Piper's ear damage from the dog-collar match, and Butch Reed being slated to win the IC belt from Steamboat.
Is there a reason we're all willing to place that much faith in Bob friggin' Holly's story? Has anyone with credibility (or anyone directly involved) ever shared this same theory?
Well, just the fact that Gunn was given absolutely NOTHING for the following 6 months (don't even remember him being on Raw after that), and then being put in a no win situation at WM 15 to get humiliated , kind of makes it seem likely.
I hear ya, I'm just tired of seeing it further perpetuated by reviewers on this site. Nothing against Logan, who I think is damn good, it just seems to be the gospel truth around here.
The Butterbean fight was proposed for the Brawl For All winner before the tournament was even completed, AND Jim Ross wasn't even running creative at the time. But sure, keep running with it.
this was my first time ever hearing that. From watching JR in tv interviews and the way he interacts with fans on his site, he just comes off as a thing that rhymes with bassbowl.
You're right, Shelton did get something from it in terms of credibility and a boost to his character, so huzzah for that. My point was more that Frizz was saying they tried to do something with him and while they did give him a bone with that angle to get him started, it wasn't like he was protected or well-booked in the future. After the IC feud with Orton, he was almost totally left to rot in the midcard.
I don't know, they had an in-ring intensity and relentlessness that could've been channeled into fine characters. The HBK/Shelton match (you know, the one from RAW in 2005 with THAT Sweet Chin Music) was a good example - endless near falls, and Shelton just keeps on coming, constantly countering HBK's attempts to put him down with this or that move, and using his environment in ever-evolving ways to get one up on Shawn. That could've been distilled into a good heel character, with Paul Heyman managing and covering promos - or a good face character (the plucky underdog who won't quit and will wow you with his arsenal in the process) with an appropriate valet or handler. Alas, they stuck him with his mother...
Wow forgot about this match, good stuff. Nice finishing sequence
ReplyDeleteWhich begs the question, is something a classic, if no one remembers it?
ReplyDeleteDoesn't help that 3 out of those 4 guys have absolutely no charisma or personality.
ReplyDeleteI LOVE Team Angle. It's a shame they didn't stick with that gimmick longer.
ReplyDeleteAwesome PPV, one of the very few bright lights to come out of single-brand PPVs
ReplyDeleteThe only downside of this PPV was the Gowen/McMahon match. As a matter of fact, most of the Gowen stuff was pretty terrible.
ReplyDelete...or if no one saw it?
ReplyDeleteI'm sure TNA and ROH (domestically) have had numerous matches that are just as good as, if not better than, the best WWE matches. It's hard, however, to consider them "classics" when relatively few people see them and they have relatively little impact on the overall history of pro wrestling.
I dont feel like it was a classic match at all actually. *** 3/4.
ReplyDeleteMysterio and Kidman were always a solid team together
Great Eddie/Benoit match, good Taker/Cena match, Very good Tag Title match, very good triple threat main event. I also thought the Bar Room Brawl was in good fun
ReplyDeleteDo we still do a Saturday ppv show? We should all watch Vengeance 03 together on Saturday if we do.
ReplyDeleteTo this day, I have no idea why Rey and Kidman weren't a more permanent tag team. Rematch this at SummerSlam (where they don't have to contend with the elements -- this match was in high-altitude Denver!), and it gets the full monty IMO.
ReplyDeleteI think they ran something involving Undertaker and Austin (singles matches, tag matches, triple threat matches) about 312 times in 1998.
ReplyDeleteWhat a fun match. WTGTT are like the tag version of Curtis Axel - very sound in the ring and completely void of personality/charisma.
ReplyDeleteGod, I love this match. Even on a show that was as stacked as Vengeance 2003, I'm not ashamed to call this my favorite match of the whole card. It just kicked 900 kinds of ass and came back for more!
ReplyDeleteBut it lead to Mr. America so I'll take it! One of my guilty pleasures...
ReplyDeleteYeah, this and Backlash '04 stand out to me.
ReplyDeleteSounds like a great show.
ReplyDeleteIt's on and off but let's do it! Great PPV. Benoit-Guerrero and Angle-Lesnar-BigShow were great as well.
ReplyDeleteI was shocked seeing that Bar Room Brawl and seeing Orlando Jordan bald. My last memory of him is that TNA Gimmick that he was doing.
ReplyDeleteAs Scott mentioned in his review of No Mercy 03, Matt Hardy was DOA after losing to him. Especially since Gowen was gone right after.
ReplyDeleteFalling one short of the 313 matches involving Kane and Undertaker that year. Off the top of my head (televised matches only):
ReplyDelete1. WM XIV
2. The PPV with the inferno match
3. Match for the title shot at King of the Ring (I remember this only because Kane actually pinned Undertaker here)
4. Fully Loaded
5. 4-way tag match, I think when the Outlaws got the belts back
6. September PPV
7. October PPV
8. Undertaker/Kane vs. Rock/Shamrock/Mankind
9. Survivor Series
So six of the twelve PPVs that year had Undertaker vs. Kane in some fashion, including four singles matches between the two. Wait -- I'm forgetting our friends over the pond. Apparently the main event of Mayhem in Manchester was Undertaker vs. Kane, and the main event of Capital Carnage was Austin vs. Undertaker vs. Kane vs. Rock. So that's 8/14 PPVs and five one-one-one encounters that year. This doesn't include house shows, dark matches, matches I forgot/didn't know about, that time Undertaker dressed up as Kane, or matches in which in one guys was involved and the other merely did a run-in (Royal Rumble, KoTR, Rock Bottom).
Shelton Benjamin at least had a little bit more excitement in his overall in ring presence than Axel.
ReplyDeleteAINT NO STOPPIN ME NO!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteThe hell happened to Mr. America anyway? Just kinda disappeared.
ReplyDeleteHell of a blade job by Vince though.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't really watching wrestling at this stage, and Kidman in a WWE ring is always really fucking weird to me.
ReplyDeleteLove reading these because this was the period when I became a fan.
ReplyDeleteGood match. I just happened to watch this entire ppv yesterday on dvd. One of the better ppvs from 2003. It would have been better without Steph vs Sable.
ReplyDeleteHAD me at the alley-oop rana.
ReplyDeleteHe tried, I'll give him that, but you & I both know it just wasn't enough. And they tried, too - I mean, he went over HHH in his first Raw match, and that was when HHH was almost untouchable.
ReplyDeleteI'd be game for that.
ReplyDeleteSuch an awesome near-fall. The crowd is losing their minds at that point.
ReplyDeleteYup, Kidman's the only one with any character.
ReplyDeleteThis was great, as was all of Vengeance '03
ReplyDeleteHe worked TNA? Didn't know that. Last I remember him was his US Title program with Cena
ReplyDeleteThat was when Triple H got to stay on Raw in exchange for three guys after the draft and needed to show he was a team player by putting someone over. Not saying it wasn't a cool bit, as I was live there in Cincinnati when it happened, but let's not act as if Shelton got the rocket behind him.
ReplyDeleteRoss never forgave Gunn for knocking his guy out of the competition.
ReplyDeleteIt saddens me to see what a jerk JR turned out to be.
Yamaguchi-San vows to “choppy choppy” Val’s “pee pee”
Still funny
Anyone know where the Hawk thing was supposed to go? Why would he even agree to do the angle?
Every ppv main from Unforgiven to Judgement Day had some combination of Austin, Undertaker, Foley or Kane. Rock's elevation could not come soon enough.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely didn't get the rocket behind him, but they had him get a pinfall on the guy who at that time was barely putting anyone over.
ReplyDeleteLook up his run in TNA and prepared to be horrified.
ReplyDeleteHHH (main eventer) for an upper midcarder and a tag team? Raw still got the edge in that trade.
ReplyDeleteAnd Shelton did get a mini-rocket, got a huge push for that entire year, until they gave it all up by having him job to Carlito 18 times.
People complained about that match? I thought he came out looking fantastic after that match.
ReplyDeleteTHIS. I keep hearing how WWE fails to make new stars now, but they weren't *THAT* good at it back then either. those 4 guys, then Rock and HHH in the next few years. Most of the other guys, just like these days, were over, but VERY SELDOM were put over those "big 6". Even in 2000, Benoit/Jericho/Angle were mostly on the losing side against those guys.
ReplyDeleteVengeance 2005 has got this show beat.
ReplyDeleteA countout in a triple threat match? Russo must have been booking that one.
ReplyDeleteYep, I get the storyline logic behind it, but... shouldn't absolutely every triple threat match in history have at least 5 obvious count out situations? There's almost always 1 guy out of the ring for 5 minutes at a time.
ReplyDeleteA bit like Rock vs Shamrock, a matchup that the WWF bookers just couldn't move on from from late 1997 to Rock winning the title in November 1998.
ReplyDeleteThis was the Raw where I realized for sure that Severn just didn't have it. Big pop for him when he stood up for Jason Sensation... HUGE pop when he countered out of the Sharp Shooter.... Then he ... pushes Owen into the corner and starts doing open palm strikes.... Worst. (pro wrestling) Offense. Ever.
ReplyDeleteWhat irritates me is that most triple threat matches (also fatal four-ways) have been implied to be no DQ, no countout, but the WWF/E has also used the announcement of those matches as no DQ/no countount as means for a big pop. See Rebellion 2000's main event for a great example.
ReplyDeleteActually I was talking about Charlie Haas.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Cena/Undertaker still annoys me quite a bit, though. (Even though Cena turned out fine.)
ReplyDeleteHogan decided he didn't want to play ball anymore... so Vince came out and used so off air footage of Mr. America pulling his mask up to reveal himself as Hulk Hogan... thus banning him from WWE.
ReplyDeleteI felt the same way at the time. Hindsight shows Taker going over was the right decision.
ReplyDeleteHidden gem.
ReplyDeleteYeah...I think JR is generally a good guy with a great mind for the business who was critical to WWF's success during this period, however he totally let his blind love of Dr. Death really cloud his judgment when it came to Bart Gunn. Totally unfair...
ReplyDeleteThe summer of1998 was my favorite time to be a wrestling fan.
ReplyDeleteThe whole story about Ross "never forgiving Bart Gunn" for knocking out Dr. Death has always struck me as total bullshit, right up there with Roddy Piper's ear damage from the dog-collar match, and Butch Reed being slated to win the IC belt from Steamboat.
ReplyDeleteIs there a reason we're all willing to place that much faith in Bob friggin' Holly's story? Has anyone with credibility (or anyone directly involved) ever shared this same theory?
Even if that's not true I still think JR is a bit of a jerk.
ReplyDeleteFully Loaded 2000 being the biggest offender. They just decided to have them all lose on the same show.
ReplyDeleteWell, just the fact that Gunn was given absolutely NOTHING for the following 6 months (don't even remember him being on Raw after that), and then being put in a no win situation at WM 15 to get humiliated , kind of makes it seem likely.
ReplyDeleteI hear ya, I'm just tired of seeing it further perpetuated by reviewers on this site. Nothing against Logan, who I think is damn good, it just seems to be the gospel truth around here.
ReplyDeleteThe Butterbean fight was proposed for the Brawl For All winner before the tournament was even completed, AND Jim Ross wasn't even running creative at the time. But sure, keep running with it.
ReplyDeletethis was my first time ever hearing that. From watching JR in tv interviews and the way he interacts with fans on his site, he just comes off as a thing that rhymes with bassbowl.
ReplyDeleteYou're right, Shelton did get something from it in terms of credibility and a boost to his character, so huzzah for that. My point was more that Frizz was saying they tried to do something with him and while they did give him a bone with that angle to get him started, it wasn't like he was protected or well-booked in the future. After the IC feud with Orton, he was almost totally left to rot in the midcard.
ReplyDeleteHe was also Warrior's final match
ReplyDeleteI find it hard to see Curtis Axel having a four star match with Shawn Michaels.
ReplyDeleteI think that may be a little unfair to say, given that Axel's probably never been given the chance to go 14 minutes with anyone.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, they had an in-ring intensity and relentlessness that could've been channeled into fine characters. The HBK/Shelton match (you know, the one from RAW in 2005 with THAT Sweet Chin Music) was a good example - endless near falls, and Shelton just keeps on coming, constantly countering HBK's attempts to put him down with this or that move, and using his environment in ever-evolving ways to get one up on Shawn. That could've been distilled into a good heel character, with Paul Heyman managing and covering promos - or a good face character (the plucky underdog who won't quit and will wow you with his arsenal in the process) with an appropriate valet or handler. Alas, they stuck him with his mother...
ReplyDeleteI think it was hardway... The chair destroys him and he gushes immediately.
ReplyDeleteHe was with CM Punk multiple times. Also Axel has NEVER gotten the amount of praise Shelton Benjamin did in the ring.
ReplyDeleteMore like "his mother".
ReplyDelete