Scott, I listened to the CM Punk podcast last evening, it was tremendous. CM Punk really brought to light how awful the current regime and the "corporate era" is. 2 interesting things were brought up during the podcast.
- He told off Triple H about ruining his 2011 momentum.
- He forced change of the Wrestlemania 30 plans by leaving, as Daniel Bryan was NOT booked to wrestle for the WWE Title.
- He forced change of the Wrestlemania 30 plans by leaving, as Daniel Bryan was NOT booked to wrestle for the WWE Title.
Clearly even CM Punk himself was upset about jobbing to Triple H and then proceeding to be 50/50 booked including losing to Truth / Miz when he was "white hot". So many people tried to argue that he wasn't buried when clearly he was, and Punk himself was even bitter about it.
Clearly Daniel Bryan was going to be "Daniel Wyatt" for at least a few months. A Daniel Wyatt action figure was even planned which are made months in advance. Daniel Bryan being in the Mania main event was clearly never the plan despite many anti smarks arguing that it was.
Wait, CM Punk did a podcast?
Kidding.
The HHH story really felt like vindication for me personally, because I was screaming about how it was a burial of him and I had to hear all the "Blah blah blah didn't hurt him kicked out of three Pedigrees wins and losses don't matter" nonsense. Nice to hear that Punk himself agrees. Also, Vince McMahon declaring that RANDY ORTON V. BATISTA would be "the biggest Wrestlemania main event of all time" is the kind of comedy you can't pay the TV monkeys to write.
All that being said, how much money would there now be in a Wrestlemania main event of CM Punk v. HHH in a match where you're pretty sure Punk might shoot on him?
I remember defending the HHH/Punk match because it was such a great match that I felt like it didn't bury Punk. But in hindsight, yea he's totally right. HHH gained nothing by beating Punk. It would've definitely elevated him but that's what you get when you call something a doofus son-in-law.
ReplyDeleteI think everyone who confuses a guy being on TV with that being a push, and in general anyone who think things are fine and dandy in WWE, need to listen to it.
ReplyDeleteTJ: Just tried to cancel my Network subscription and the link they gave me was 404'd. Of course it was. Can anyone tell me how to cancel?
ReplyDeleteThe anti smark "perspective" is also known as trolling for attention. You'd have to be completely clueless about the wrestling business to think that HHH insertion into the punk angle was anything but a burial.
ReplyDeleteIt simply didn't need to happen. There was no reason for HHH to go over. None.
ReplyDeleteRead the report today that Vince was kinda meh about the Punk while Trips and Steph were furious. That is because Vince has seen and heard it all before and this is the first time a top guy has called out the HHH/Steph regime. Get used to it guys.
ReplyDeleteGotta agree. The only way I think Luger stood a chance is if they brought him in with Percy Pringle and Rick Rude as a stable or teamed him with Heenan even earlier. He would have probably been around for a few years before going to the WCW and becoming a mid carder in the early 90's.
ReplyDeleteIt wouldn't have been a burial if Punk was able to beat Nash in a follow-up match and then beat Triple H in a rematch.
ReplyDeleteOf course, neither of those happened.
Not only that, but Punk ate the pin against Miz and Truth, which did the double disservice of 1) having Punk eat another pin (to a plot device), 2) having the hottest heel act in the company (Miz/Truth) not get a pin over HHH after he was allowed to beat them up following the their attack in the Cell.
ReplyDeleteGood to hear Punk also call out the bullshit regarding blaming Miz/Truth for the failure of Survivor Series that year.
They should have never brought CM Punk back so fast in the first place! He should have been out until at least Summerslam (where Cena wins the vacant title) and then comes back to set up huge rematches at Night of Champions and Hell in the Cell.
ReplyDeleteInstead the rush him back so he can feud with Kevin Nash, who can't even pass a physical and OF COURSE HHH gets shoe-horned in and put over.
Steph doesn't like anyone who second-guesses her creative genius. HHH is the same guy who has resented Rock for 20 years for just being plain better than him.
ReplyDeleteKinda ridiculous that Shawn is only a four time World champion, while Cena and Orton have had at least 9-10 reigns a piece.
ReplyDeleteI'm just mentioning this because I'm watching the Raw where Tyson appears for the first time on the Network.
Maybe if more guys turned down world titles like Shawn did.
ReplyDeleteI swear all of this goes back to HHH being maybe 3rd best during the Attitude era.
ReplyDeleteYou have to click month to month then renew then wait a few minutes then cancel will appear.
ReplyDeleteOr just say, "what's the plan here Vince?" when Orton and Cena are swapping the belt at like every pay-per-view for three years straight.
ReplyDeleteI believe Bryan would have still been in the main event - that had more to do with the fans shitting all over Mania main event for the 2nd year in a row than Punk walking out
ReplyDeleteCena is at like 15 or 16.
ReplyDeleteShoulda, woulda, coulda! Surprised Nash wasn't mentioned once in that podcast though now you mention it
ReplyDeleteThey had a perfect dream match in Cena vs. Rey to headline that show too which blew my mind when they gave it away free on Raw.
ReplyDeleteI gotta figure out why that podcast won't load on my iPhone so I can listen to it myself.
ReplyDeleteThere's a YouTube link for it as well which might be easier
ReplyDeleteIf only Blade Trinity had gotten Hunter more acting gigs we wouldn't have to see him on TV.
ReplyDeleteEven with all it's problems, I can't imagine ever wanting to cancel the Network. What don't you like about it?
ReplyDeleteBERRIED!
ReplyDeleteIt's funny in retrospect. He was (allegedly) up for the role of Thor instead of Hemsworth. Had he got that and been bound to Marvel for then next 40 years or however they structure their contracts, how different would things be?
ReplyDelete(Also, how much worse would those movies be???)
I'm pretty sure Punk got along well with Nash and also why burn that bridge when Nash has Hollywood connections.
ReplyDeleteMaybe 3rd best.
ReplyDeleteAwesome. Remember how much airtime they got? Still being considered for Conan?
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure HHH legit knocked out Miz during that post-Cell beat down. He looked liked he clocked him.
ReplyDeleteI *think* Cena is at one less than Flair?
ReplyDeleteThe thing that keeps getting lost is that Survivor Series 2011 did do a good buyrate. The initial report was 280k, which was 36k more than the previous year. However, the final adjusted buyrate was 312k, or up 68k from the previous year.
ReplyDeleteBut it apparently just didn't do the monster number WWE expected considering it was The Rock's first match in seven years. Considering Brock's big return at Extreme Rules 2012 a few months later did 263k, I'm not sure what WWE actually expected Survivor Series 2011's buyrate to be.
I go 5th.
ReplyDeleteYou do realize that they had two world titles when most of those reigns took place?
ReplyDeleteAustin, Rock, and Foley for sure are ahead of him.
ReplyDeleteYeah. They'll tip their hand the next time they're serious about Cena getting the belt by turning that into a storyline. Any/all Cena title shots that don't mention Flair are huge clues that he's not going over.
ReplyDeleteI assume it's because cabana's bandwidth couldn't handle it.
ReplyDeleteThat was probably more his pushing than Disney / Marvel seriously looking at him. Hemsworth was dirt cheap when they signed him and has worked out incredibly well.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I don't see how we can rag on HHH for burying guys and then rag on Punk for telling HHH to fuck off because of it. Bottom line is Punk had momentum and seemed to be on the way up after MITB when a series of booking decisions ensured that he would be the type of WWE Champion who does his business in the undercard.
ReplyDeleteTaker
ReplyDeleteEither Luger would have been just another "heel of the month" like Scott said or Vince would have saw his body, try to groom Luger to be the next champ, only to have him flop like Scott McGee.
ReplyDeleteYEP, and if you don't believe us go watch the Rumble again. Change was coming.
ReplyDeleteWell, he did speak out against others who gets along with (Batista, Brock). Also not sure Nash would sacrifice his friendship with HHH to help Punk get a movie role!
ReplyDelete"All that being said, how much money would there now be in a Wrestlemania
ReplyDeletemain event of CM Punk v. HHH in a match where you're pretty sure Punk
might shoot on him? "
IT"S ALL A WORK.....see and it's working.
Yeah I remember even back then in 08 or 09 or whenever that was a story people rolled their eyes at the thought of him being a lead in a major franchise. It's just hilarious to mentally picture him trying to have chemistry with Natalie Portman or playing off Robert Downey Jr.
ReplyDeleteI could believe that if Punk hadn't brought up injuries, concussions and the WWE's subpar medical team
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of that was in who Rock / Cena were facing. I liked Awesome Truth but they were never made to look like credible opponents.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure Vince would see it that way. When Punk goes broke, he'd have the first match be a blurred lines match against HHH. Vince has forgiven guys for worse. It's really a question of whether HHH would be willing to play ball.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, I still think someday Punk will come back. He didn't make THAT much money and everyone comes back.
"Rey Mysterio, no one knows who that is" - Kevin Dunn
ReplyDeleteHow do we know HHH resented Rock for 20 years?
ReplyDeleteI remember Lionsgate trying to develop a few Avengers movies in the early '00's - he might have been an OK fit in one of those but the only ones that got off the ground were Punisher and Man Thing before Marvel got all the rights back.
ReplyDeleteHe really didn't say anything that provoking either. Nothing that will preclude a potential return at some point.
ReplyDeleteYeah he basically accused them of negligence on a few sensitive issues: PEDs, concussions and MRSA infections
ReplyDeleteI think HHH went over because they thought loss in what would theoretically be) his only match until "End of an Era" would hurt him more than Punk, who could get a big win and thus (again, theoretically) negate the whole loss in no time. That said, they were in that situation to begin with because of bad booking, and HHH was the wrong guy to replace Nash. The fact that there was no better option in their mind speaks volumes.
ReplyDeleteMmmm I wouldn't go that far. Most Taker matches were brutally bad during that era. Even half the time he was working with Austin, the matches weren't that good. It's easy to forget how great HHH was in 99-01 because of how godawful he was in 03-04.
ReplyDeleteIt was so infuriating, because there was literally no other reason for HHH to go over. It isn't like when he was actively wrestling every week, where you could make a reasonable argument for him always winning, even if some disagreed with it.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it was a burial with malice. I think it was more of HHH hitching himself to the hottest act.
ReplyDeleteI just watched it a few nights ago, and it was uncomfortable for CM Punk fighting through death alone.
ReplyDeleteLuger is one of those guys who's bother overrated and underrated at the same time. There were times he was given everything and just couldn't get over (WWF 93) but there were times he was WHITE HOT and was constantly undercut by better politicians (GAB 88). He still managed a hall of fame career.
ReplyDeleteI agree on the heel of the month part, because that's how the WWF rolled. I don't agree that he didn't show any breakout charisma. He won the Southern title in Florida 3 weeks into his career and he had an "it" factor that was clear from his very first studio match for Crockett.
ReplyDeleteYep. They had the great attack in the Cell, then were beaten up by HHH, made to look like whiny heels working with Laurinaitis, and then an afterthought with rock/cena. They never established why Cena had to resort to asking a guy he hated for help in defeating these guys - when he could beat them up by himself.
ReplyDeleteHe was offered the title a few times in the second run but didn't want it.
ReplyDelete'88-'90 Luger >>> '88-'90 Sting. Like, comfortably so. In just about every performance aspect.
ReplyDeleteThat blah blah blah scott was referring to is SO Vince Jordan.
ReplyDeleteTaker was horrible in that era, but his body of work still crushes HHH. I think even the Angle and Jericho's of the era have a case over HHH. Like Cornette says, HHH was always the guy who worked with the guy(s) that made money.
ReplyDeleteA million times yes! 88-90 Luger was an absolute badass ... his heel run in 91 with Harley Race was really good too, but the product was just such the drizzling shits nobody could carry that. PN News ... that's all you have to say about that era.
ReplyDeleteSo many guys have come back and had bigger issues - Bret and hulk to name two
ReplyDeleteGoing by days as champion is a better judge than # of title reigns. Rock was champ about 6 times, but he never had the 6 month long reign. Most of his reigns are 2-3 months or less: flip flopping with Foley or being a transitional champ (austin at wm17, brock in 2002).
ReplyDeleteHe still had a really kickass match with Ron Simmons at Havoc. Probably his last great match. I really should say '88-'91 Luger, as he still had the miracle match with Spivey that year also. Even if the GAB title win wasn't good.
ReplyDeleteAngle is in the discussion, too.
ReplyDeleteThis is why I REALLY hope things work out for TNA. WWE is just the absolute worst without any competition. And the boys need another place to go where they can make real money. I'm not a TNA mark by any stretch, they lost me when they pulled the plug on Austin Aries and guys like Magnus were champion. But this CM Punk stuff just proves these guys need somewhere else to go that they can make a real living.
ReplyDeleteI'm kind of curious now to see how HHH would have fit into those movies.
ReplyDeleteI think you mean Tom Magee, the backflipping musclehead, and not Scott McGhee, the Scottish mat wrestler. Unlike Tom, Luger was a good talker who was competent in the ring.
ReplyDeleteHe had a brief renaissance in 1997 when - shocker - he was pushed to look like a beast. But once again, a politician got the better of him.
ReplyDeleteAs a purely armchair psychologist who only knows Hunter from TV, backstage gossip, and his revealing interview with Jericho a few months back, the guy just seems incredibly insecure with his place in wrestling history.
ReplyDeleteI give him all the credit in the world for putting Bryan over at Mania 30 and then putting The Shield over at the next 2 PPVs. But that doesn't erase the damage he did to the drawing power of Angle (Unforgiven 2000), Jericho (Mania 18), Booker T (Mania 19), Goldberg (SummerSlam 2003), Orton (SummerSlam 2004), Punk (Night of Champions 2011), and Lesnar (Mania 29).
Sure, all of those guys went on to have great careers and championship reigns in their future. But all of them faced Triple H when they were white-hot and the losses tempered the mileage WWE could've gotten out of them when they were at their hottest.
How much does New Japan pay guys?
ReplyDeleteNarcissist was one of the great wasted gimmicks. It was great ... knocking out people with his forearm. What could have been ...
ReplyDeleteI'm always under the impression that guys can make good money in Japan ... but its a bitch flying over there.
ReplyDeleteSounds like he's done with the wwe for now but man can you imagine if cult hits and he enters the rumble at 30, wins and just stares heyman and Brock down?
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't sound like his main problem is with Vince.
ReplyDeleteI was only kidding. I don't think he comes back. He made enough in the last 3/4 years. He'll do fine with the occasional TV or movie gig.He does seem like the type with a lavish lifestyle, plus is wife is still working, and he'll get half in a divorce.
ReplyDeleteAround the time Blade Trinity came out Hunter was on Howard Stern and talked about how he really wanted to get into acting. Then there were all these rumors about Thor and Conan, but neither ended up happening.
ReplyDeleteEven when The Chaperon came out he was still talking about how he wanted to do more movies. However, by the time Inside Out came out, Hunter talked about it as something he only did because he had to and that he only wanted to wrestle (Batista was slated for Inside Out, but was pulled because he made it known he wasn't re-signing and they didn't want to promote a movie with a guy no longer in the company).
I just loved how that narrative changed.
"I didn't quit, I was fired."
ReplyDeleteYes, that's EXACTLY what leaving work and refusing to come is called.
Delusional.
Luger is one of those guys whose peak was almost the moment they debuted. Sadly had he gone to the WWF then he would have firmly hit the glass ceiling named Hogan. His one best chance was going to the WWF when he did. Had it not been for the WBF debacle, and the motorcycle accident, and if Vince had just pushed him as himself and not the Narcissist character, Luger might have been a huge deal. But looking at how Sid Justice turned out a year earlier, and Diesel a few years later... perhaps not.
ReplyDeleteCan't have a CEO in training wanting to do other things.
ReplyDeleteOopps!
ReplyDeleteMy memory may be failing me here, but didnt Miz get the biggest pops both in that actual MITB match and then the tournament? I remember the crowd cheering for him over Rey.
ReplyDeleteI think the principle that he's stressing is that, as an independent contractor who had fulfilled his contractual obligations, he had no impetus to go to work anymore, so he went home, and they made it official by FedExing the termination notice.
ReplyDeleteI got the impression he was more pissed about getting it on his wedding day, more so than 'getting it' at all, if that makes any sense.
Didn't Cena also singlehandedly kick Miz/Truth's ass on Raw, just a week after he had to practically beg Rock to be his partner? How the hell could anyone have expected Miz/Truth to win against *both* guys? (Don't bring up "ring rust"--the expectation and kayfabe was that Rock was going to be just as good as ever.)
ReplyDelete"I'd like to think that maybe this company will be better after Vince McMahon's dead, but the fact is it's gonna get taken over by his idiotic daughter and his doofus son-in-law and the rest of his stupid family!"
ReplyDeleteI'd like to think it was from that moment that Triple H couldn't stand Punk.
The initial rumors of HHH as Thor predated the Disney era by a lot. At the time the rights were still held by someone totally different, and it would have been a low-budget affair.
ReplyDeleteThey may have built Luger up to put against Savage after WM4. All Luger would have to do is look over at Liz once, flex, smile, and you have your hot program for the Summer.
ReplyDeleteThe Vince of 10 or more years ago would hire Punk back in a heartbeat knowing how much money he could make with him.
ReplyDeleteSomething tells me Triple H and Stephanie are a bit more vindictive.
'A bit'?
ReplyDeleteThere's a reason that promotions ran by (former) wrestlers had a lot of troubles.
If we're talking semantics its way worse that they called him an independent contractor.
ReplyDeleteShit even Shawn was still more popular than HHH and he was barely ever even on TV.
ReplyDelete...and burying them.
ReplyDeleteVince would have punk back tomorrow if he could.
ReplyDeleteThat's true. I mean, one of the main reasons for this falling out is that Vince was leaning on the guy too much to carry the product since he was such a big draw and he could always count on him to build a hot angle with anyone.
ReplyDeleteVince has had far worse done to him by Hogan, Warrior and Bret Hart alone than anything Punk said in that interview. He's used to relationships going sour.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, while Punk ragged on Vince for the UFC things and making promises he didn't keep ("I owe you one"), he squarely aims most of his rage at the doctor, Triple H, and the morons in creative.
exactly. That is both why it isn't a work and why I think people might be overly optimistic Vince would take him back. It's one thing to quit because you think it's stupid to job to Brock on a Raw episode when your the biggest name in the business, it's another to air dirty laundry that could conceivably bring investigations.
ReplyDeleteTNA is dead. And I'm not saying that in the sense that they can't be entertaining again. The problem is, the TNA name (or actually ANY company owned by Dixie) is so tarnished that the best people in the indies wouldn't work for her without having MASSIVE amounts of money thrown at them (more than they're worth at this point in their careers).
ReplyDeleteIt's a shame, because they could have been awesome.
I doubt HHH knew who Rock was in 1994.
ReplyDeleteI would think the medical stuff is the bridge too far. Wrestlers bitch and moan about pushes and that stuff all the time. He took it to the next level, and Steph and Trips would hold a grudge, but grudges tend to disappear with money.
ReplyDeleteNow saying a publicly traded company is knowingly(or not) sponsoring (perhaps) medical malpractice? THAT is a horse of a different color. . .
One thing I've been thinking about Batista... Would things have gone differently if the movie had come out BEFORE he showed up?
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, when he showed up, people were like "Guardians of the WHAT? They let this guy show up and win the Rumble because he is in some stupid super-hero movie that's probably going to suck?"
Switch it up. He comes in after GotG releases (and everyone finds out how awesome it is). Would people have started cheering him?
I mean there IS precedent. A lot of Hogan's initial appeal was built upon his appearance in Rocky 3.
I don't know what the end result would have been, but I certainly think that at least the INITIAL reception of him would have been much better.
I dunno what you mean by Taker's body of work crushes HHH's. Are you talking about the workrate these guys brought during this era? Because Taker couldn't touch HHH back then.
ReplyDeleteLuger could have gotten the Ultimate Warrior slot if he went to WWF in 88-89. He had a similar build to Warrior but was a far better wrestler. Hellwig could have slotted into a tag tam quite easily.
ReplyDeleteYeah, but he had charisma in the "real athlete" mold of JCP's guys, not the cartoon characters that Vince was looking for. I was a huge fan of Luger from day one and you could tell he would fit right in on that side of things.
ReplyDeleteGotta remember Luger was the first guy ever to get a contract. He could not stand wrestling and was all about business. No way I see him lasting in the WWF with his philosophy. If Vince didn't run him off the other guys would have.
ReplyDeleteHmm, I don't know about a Hercules spot...remember Bret's story about Vince wetting his pants at seeing Tom Magee and proclaiming him his new champion? Luger's looks and body were at least as good at the time.
ReplyDelete